Am I missing something here?
Just received a professional email, which was signed in the following format;
Name XY (traditionally female name)
Work Address XYZ
Mobile number
Pronouns: she/her
I understand grammatically what a pronoun is, but I have never seen such an out of place and slightly odd thing on an email signature before. What is is about?
I understand the usage of it and support it if the person prefers a different pronoun or where it may be confusing. However I feel that it's a bit excessive or might even cause confusion if the person's default pronoun is whatever people already expect, like in your example.
If you're a cisgender I just feel like there are better ways to show your support to the trans community. I see taglines such as "LGBTQ+ Ally" or the likes in their email signature which I feel is clear. However you don't see people announcing their racial background or sexuality around on emails do you?
Putting that in email signature is plain daft. Why not put a long list of communities you might support - black lives, travelling community, RSPCA, National Trust etc.Originally Posted by Paradiddle
I have only seen it on one email ever.
That was from a company in London.
Same as above, this was from someone with He / Him. It seemed excessive to be honest, but perhaps company policy so that those that do want or need to use it dont feel out there?
Just reply "Dear Muppet" and see how it goes
Ahh, thanks for the replies; I didn’t know it was a “thing”. I just thought it was so utterly incongruous to my uneducated mind, that there must be some reason that I was unaware of.
For the most part it's very trendy on LinkedIn to show how progressive you are. One of my friends who is called Dave and has a massive beard has (he/him) after his name on LinkedIn. It's not like you would struggle to work out what his pronouns are.
I'm a supporter of it for people who wish to be indentified correctly or indeed as they choose to be identified but most of the times I've seen this it just seems to be virtue signalling by people who have read a copy of Del Boy's "Modern Man" 2020 edition while drinking a fair trade oat milk latte dressed in their sweat shop clothes but that could just be me turning middle aged and into a gammon.
The world we live in!
/It
I wanna be called Loretta...
Ahhh pronouns, where can I begin.
There are two sexes.
Male, and female.
Male and female come with pronouns.
He him his, she her hers.
Once upon a time there was this thing called "androgyny" and was favoured by the likes of Bowie, Boy George, Annie Lennox.
It was also known as "gender bending" and the gays had been doing this for decades.
Gender bending is when you play with attire and adornment not usually associated with the socially constructed gender roles ascribed to your biological sex.
People were able to genderbend and arse about with androgyny for many years while still realising that this didn't affect their sex.
Then.. in 2015-2020 a new breed was discovered. A breed so absolutely special and deserving of attention that they decreed they were not of the male or female sex, despite still retaining either small or large gametes without the option of a third, as this didn't give them the affirmation that they so desperately needed.. They called themselves "non binary" and insisted on "they/them" pronouns because they ascend biology through unicorns and fairytales.
And lo, the circular firing squad of the left decided that biology was old fashioned, outdated, and gave women and girls far too many protections and spaces, so it was eroded, and people were permitted to select their own gender which had replaced sex.. and to support these etherial creatures "Pronouns" were put into signatures and bios to stand in solidarity with non binary pansexual agender panromantic demiboy novigender maverique otherkin genderflux gendferqueer catgendered transmasculine neutrois two-spirit creatures of the forest.
Thank goodness this isnt the bear pit.
Someone ( Female i presume given the name) who works for Charity that my Daughter is associated with uses the she/her tag on her emails quite frankly i am to old to care or indeed give a FF.
he/him
I FEEL LIKE I'M DIAGONALLY PARKED IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE
Probably the best summary I've heard since Jordan Peterson.
And you're right about the BP. Good luck there!! ;-)
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I'm a 6' white heterosexual male, I tend to prefer brown haired women, and would rather dress casually. I don't feel that he/him sufficiently differentiates me from men that prefer blondes, or men who wear suits. What pronoun should I use?
If you can have babies you're female; if you can load a dishwasher you're male.
PS I'm surprised that there isn't a woke children's program about a cartoon monkey called Bi-Curious George.
PPS In my house, Britain's Got Talent is referred to as LBGT.
I wouldn't mind calling somebody by a different pronoun if it's important to them.
But for a woman to make such a big point about wanting to be called "she/her" - that's just trying to draw attention to her "right on" beliefs. I think it shows insecurity.
Yes, insecurity and woke-points, without realising that in indulging this sort of nonsense they're putting the safety of their own sex at risk.
I hate it.
Since you're in Ireland, go and google Barbie Kardashian and see what I mean.
The top hit will fill you in on the details.
Jesus, what a s*** show. Exactly same as me and, without even an attempt to transition, legally he is exactly the same as you. Frightening and really shows a big loop hole in the law over in Eire.
Turkey's voting for Christmas isn't strong enough. Bill Burr just did a good attempt during part of his SNL monologue the other day if that's your thing.
Unfortunately, if you don't join in with the wokery these days you risk being attacked by those who do, and they are prevalent in the media.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Put she/him, that should confuse them.
Yes, a colleague of mine received an email from a major U.K. university with something similar in the email signature a couple of months ago. We all scratched our head about it for five minutes and I haven’t thought about it again until reading this thread.
The world is too complicated for me sometimes
As others have said, its something gaining traction in far-left (extreme left?) areas and also businesses that appeal to liberal markets for consumers and staff, ie technology, software, etc. The idea is you cannot possibly assume someone's gender as they could be trans, or a female identifying as a male, or a male identifying as a female, or anything in between since gender is a spectrum. I'm speaking verbatim, these aren't my own views.
^ but why is knowing their gender in any way relevant? Why choose this to state openly in an email signature?
Why not their marital status, skin colour, sexuality, socioeconomic status, number of pets...
It’s all utterly irrelevant to the professional matter being discussed in the email and seems rather inappropriate, actually?
I’ve lived too long.
I haven’t got time for this. SERENITY NOW!
I think I will just call everyone by their name. Or not communicate at all. Life is complicated enough without all this stuff.
Critical Race Theory has been unchallenged, brought into the mainstream by the far (extreme) left and has taken over some key institutions. Everything is now apparently relative and a social construct.
Some overly left leaning (but well meaning) folk think it prudent to virtual signal with these vain efforts.
I'd recommend a book called Cynical Theories by James Lindsay who delves into how this came about and why.
He used to write satirical academic papers on these subjects which then got published by scientific journals. One example was "Who are they to judge?
Overcoming anthropometry through fat
bodybuilding"
Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
Perhaps they’re up for a bit and put their gender hoping for an offer?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
There are only two genders. Change my mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtftZPL-k7Y
There are two sexes.
There are a ton of genders because new ones are made up daily.
However "theres only two genders change my mind" illustrate just how far we've gone at conflating the two.
That is truly scary. I'm just too old for this nonsense.
Back in the 80s, I did a two year drawing and painting course on the Art College in Zwolle, a northern town where I used to live. In my class there was a student, a woman who used to be a man. Her name: Colette. She was one of the first ever (worldwide) to have all the operations etc done to become a woman. Alway immaculately dressed, the nicest, most confident person you can imagine. She was great with pencils and paint - especially with needles and cloth (see a Pinterest page of her work below!).
Apart from all this, she was longer than me (6 ft) and she was always wearing high heels. An absolute 'appearance' and well-known in town. Nobody even thought about it as 'weird' or similar (remember: 30+ yrs ago). She was very open about her operations and what she had to do to change here sex. Very interesting stuff, always open to answer questions. That was all. Sadly she has passed away, leaving tons of beautiful art.
Fast forward to 2018.
Being a part-time teacher I had to listen to woman similar to Colette: this 2018-lady had gone the same route: from man to woman. She appeared uncertain even hostile. It started with: "Before we begin, don't ask me my male name and don't ask me about the operations!" And she started to talk about herself. In even second sentence, she mentioned her op. At the end, one of my female colleagues, a very nice person, asked: "At the beginning, you told us not to ask about your ops. Yet, you mention it in every second sentence! Isn't that difficult to talk about when it's a one-way street?" Then the lady who had the ops reacted with: "Well, I don't ask you about your c..t being across between your legs, do I?" (sorry for the language). We were all baffled.
Perhaps I've been lucky to know a sophisticated, well-behaving and mentally stable lady who has undergone all those ops. I think that nowadays, there's this a kind of 'obviousness' that the world is against you and that you have to be militant, hostile etc to get your point across!
(Colette's work. Remember, it's all done with needle, threat and pieces of cloth! In the middle of the page, there's a pic of Colette wearing a white dress.
https://nl.pinterest.com/dorydevocht/colette-berends/ )
Menno
I agree that the trend of putting pronouns in email sigs feels odd to me, but the level of transphobia in this thread worries me. I wonder why it is that some transexual people are defensive, or feel that they have to justify their existence, as in thieuster's example?
The trans community is already one of the more marginalised groups of people in the UK - twice as likely to be the victims of crime than average. Being trans is not dressing up, it's not pretending. Trans-women are not undermining the meaning of the word "woman". It's not an attack.
The case of the Irish teen brought up by verv is bad faith - that person is no more a representative of the trans community that Fred Rosemary West are representative of heterosexualy married life.
There's an excellent article about transphobia on Medium if you'd care to learn more.
If you don't care to learn more, then please take it to the Bear Pit.
I don’t think talking about pronouns and the reasons behind their increasing usage is transphobia. That is simply an excuse used to shut down any discussion or anyone who disagrees with you.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Oh, I agree - I think the discussion is helpful. I've contributed here to the discussion of pronouns.
But where we differ is that you seem to suggest that the tone of this thread is a discussion of pronouns. Are you sure? Because this thread feels pretty hostile. Just from this thread alone, we've got
verv's first post that conflates gender and sex
hogthrob's joke post that says you can't be a woman if you're infertile, post-menopausal, or have and a hysterecomy.
It's hard to have a reasonable discussion with people who would (at the more extreme fringes) deny your right to exist.
I'm done here. I'm not shutting down any discussion, I'm not shouting at anyone. I'm suggesting that this thread and some of the posters in it could be kinder.
Thank you, you demonstrated my point so much better than I did.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
It seems to me that verv did not conflate gender and sex, but did exactly the opposite to contradict a previous poster who was more 'binary' in his approach.
I personally have absolutely no problem in using "she" if a trans woman wishes to be called as such (and vice-versa). I will do my best to use "they" if it is 'their' wish, even if I shall struggle more as I associate it grammatically to a plural form, and the only singular genderless form I know is "it" which obviously is totally inappropriate, but then this would be my problem to solve as a non-native speaker.
My tolerance has limits, however, and I would not show the same understanding to a non operated trans woman who claims she is a lesbian and wants access to place where cis women could feel threatened.
As to pronouns, live and let live. the "obvious" female first name may be the one a trans woman chose for herself. Personally, if someone introduces herself as "Nicole", regardless of their appearance I will find it natural to call her "she". If she wants to be called "he" I suggest "he" chooses a first name accordingly.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Partial quotes make what I've said seem incredibly harsh.
I'm not against it, this is clear, what I'm against is the majority of the people I've seen using it doing so to prove how modern and open minded they are etc
Mostly from where I am it looks like the hijacking of a legitimate issue/cause by people who couldn't care less about the cause but do care about their own PR. My original post was quite sloppy but I am not and would never deny anyone's right to be identified correctly re their gender.
That's good to hear - I apologise if I was harsh or misrepresented you.
Ah yes, the idea that the trans community is "marginalised"
They have exactly the same rights as the rest of the community. What they WANT, is more rights, particularly the right to occupy womens safe spaces.
They occupy virtually all of the LGBT funding, over 90%.
Starbucks are using them in an advertising campaign on TV.
Nespresso are using them on an advertising campaign on TV.
Gucci has just brought out a new "non binary" clothing range - dresses, for men.
Coke are using them in an advertising campaign.
They are occupying billboards on Time Square as part of a new Calvin Klein campaign.
This bearded trans woman goes into schools educating children on what it means to be a lesbian - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkK7zisjoDk
Ferring pharmaceuticals donated huge amounts of money to the Liberal Democrats during the election to push the "trans agenda".
They manufacture puberty blockers for children which gives them a fantastic income since the rate of girls trying to identify out of womanhood has increased a staggering 4000% and brings companies like Ferring a lifetime of income. This may sound like gay conversion therapy, because it is.
^Wheres the marginalised in all of that Quatar?
As for their status as victims:
Trans women are more likely to perpetrate crime than be victims of, since they retain male pattern violence.
The violence and sexual assaults committed by trans identified males are catalogued here - http://transcrimeuk.com They are catalogued here because they are recorded as FEMALE crimes.
80-95% of trans identified individuals these days seek no treatment or surgery, they occupy the identity and "dress" alone. To be clear, full males, with male appendages and male attitudes, not suffering form gender disphoria, putting on dresses and makeup and insisting that they are women and should be given full access to female spaces.
Dataset here - https://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...tten/19292.pdf
Factcheck regarding the often heard accusation of the high trans murder rate - https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...le-murdered-uk
Dataset here indicating that they are twice as likely to murder than to be murdered - http://archive.vn/6xoQx
Study indicating and concluding that male pattern violence is maintained post transition - https://archive.vn/FFZFz#s3
Not only male pattern violence but sexual violence towards women makes up almost half of the transgender prison estate - http://archive.vn/57WJK
Presumably if Barbie Kardashian is "bad faith" then the 1 in 50 men in prison self identifying as trans to secure time in womens spaces is also bad faith, despite being factual - http://archive.vn/LnXvb
WOMEN are being sexually assaulted in prison by their "non violent no risk bad faith argument" trans identified men - http://archive.vn/8JeYQ
And my favourite thing to bring up when being told by men that its transphobic to criticise men in dresses:
This is a collection of violent, abusive, sexual and death threats directed at women by trans identified men - https://terfisaslur.com
This is a collection of violent, abusive, sexual and death threats directed at lesbians by trans identified men, because lesbians dont want to interact with their penises - https://lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/
This is a fantastic article by Miranda Yardley, a trans woman, about the "cotton ceiling" which is the trans identified male attempt to coerce gay women into affirming their "womanhood" by being sexually available to them - https://medium.com/@mirandayardley/g...n-c323b4789368
This is an article by Debbie Hayton, a trans woman regarding the damage that the new trans activists (non transitioned men) are doing to the trans community - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...r-trans-people
There are more very sensible articles by Debbie if you click her name at the bottom of the article.
Kristina Harrison is a trans woman who writes very sensibly in the economist about the erosion of womens rights at the hands of trans rights activism - https://www.economist.com/open-futur...omens-concerns
These trans women (that I am friends with, so the transphobia accusation is entertaining) who do not agree with trans rights activists, the trans women who have actually transitioned and should be protected by law and by women are harassed and abused by trans rights activists and called "truscum" "quisling" and "bootlickers" because they put womens rights above the rights of men in dresses.
This is a woman nowadays -
Dont for one second believe that the trans rights activism of today is made up of marginalised victims. It is supremely misogynistic and violent towards women. It is exceptionally well funded, and it succeeds (or used to before the likes of JK Rowling raised the alarm) because any dissent of its ideology is silenced either by accusations of transphobia, or by stalking women who dissent and threatening their families and their livelihoods.
I have always been trans inclusive, ever since the 90s when I was sharing club and bar space with the trans community as part of the LGBT. Nowadays, it is unrecognisable, utterly toxic and deeply homophobic. Dont be fooled by it.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
"if I'd care to learn more" LOL.
Its about time that men stopped telling women to "be kind" to other men when they're occupying our identity and our spaces while abusing us.
Great summing up. I heard a gay rights 'activist' (who happened to be female and proud to be) on the radio earlier this year. (I have Radio 2 on in my workshop, it gives me something to rant at) She had been involved in campaigning for LGBT rights since the '70s and had recently rejected the idea of 'trans' men using womens toilets. There was a young trans rights campaigner on the programme who accused her of being transphobic and having no idea what she was talking about. The irony was large.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Why would a trans man want or even expect to use women's toilets?
Because despite fearmongering in the media, we currently live in the most peaceful time in human history. Medicine has never been better, equality is heading in the right direction, and through diminished traditional struggle, people are turning to social justice as a means of fulfilment and purpose. I've no problem fighting for legitimately marginalised and oppressed groups, but society seems to have created a bunch so that privileged kids from middle class backgrounds who go to public schools with minority background children can feel included in the fight.
I'm going to pre-empt any suggestion I'm an old bigoted loaded retiree living off my healthy pension and hedge fund. I'm a British Asian, 31, parents are both working class, and I hold pretty centric political views. I think the left and right both have some merit, but extremist politics does no one any good. The green grass is somewhere in the middle.
Last edited by dice; 14th October 2020 at 12:08.
I meant a man who is identifying and dressing as a woman, but who still retains all the physical attributes (tackle) of a man.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Think that’s a trans woman but we may be out of our depth here.
Probably.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I am completely for and support trans rights and trans identity but this guy is not trans and he is also not a lesbian. He is a deluded nut case and so is Barbie Kardashian. There is a huge difference between a genuine trans person and these guys who are hijacking movements for their own benefit or fantasy.
From what I can see, those who use the phrase "be kind" are invariably vicious, hateful and intolerant sociopaths to a man (or, er, woman); utterly devoid of both irony and self-awareness.
Last edited by Seamaster73; 14th October 2020 at 13:06.
Absolutely. Nobody is trying to diminish the rights and safety of those with gender dysphoria, but they have become a minority in the identity movement which has morphed to become something else entirely.
I agree with you Seamaster.
It's all very well saying we must be kind and tolerant to men who choose to become women. It's true that no 'person' should have to suffer abuse or discrimination because they choose a different lifestyle that is legal, causes no harm to others and does not expect any preferential treatment in law or society. But we know that is not the case. As said previously women and children's 'safe spaces' are being compromised by aggressive/activist transexuals. Children's lives and health are being put at risk by puberty blockers and even pre-pubescent surgery. Criminals/sex offenders in prisons are being allowed to declare themselves or identify as female.
I'm just throwing it out there but would it make sense to have a third legal classification for humans who wish to declare themselves neither male nor female and leave it at that? instead of all this silly 58+ gender nonsense?
Seems reasonable right? No, this is problematic thinking and all these marginalised groups aren't getting representation. This is why the collective LGBT has more recently become LGBTQIA+; because everyone wants to have their stake in the ground. This is in my opinion extreme leftism, which is just as comparably extreme as as right side extremism. Crossing the far left can have you ostracized from your professional career, industry, and social circle just as crossing the right can.
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