Mindfulness and meditation

[watchstudent]

So chaps,

I am curious. Are there many people here who have much of a mindfulness and meditation practice?

Over the last few years I have dabbled in and out and always found it useful, but I guess on quite a superficial level. On the back of quite a recent and quite a crippling stretch of anxiety and worry (both situational and multiplied by my own negative thinking) I am doubling down on it and making it a priority. Doing some reading around Buddhism along with listening to a few podcasts to get the "feel" and also reading Eckhart Tolle's book, The Power of Now (about half way through).

The language of Tolle's book is quite... woo-woo(?)... but if you can see past the new-age sort of language it is quite an eloquent and valuable book. Part of the trouble is, I think, that the mindfulness and "wellness" industry as a whole has become a bit of a monster. Many people online peddling quick fixes and "life hacks" which clearly don't work when taken with such an approach. The image of wealthy millennials touting mindfulness etc is a bit sickening (I am a millennial myself! Although not wealthy) and really detracts from it's roots.

One thing I used to assume is that the whole process is quite meek and passive and would just lead you to accepting crap thrown at you as opposed to trying to change it. I actually think, for people that do struggle with their mental health, the opposite is true. Not identifying with your thoughts seems to free you to act to bring about change if it is needed. But accepting things if actually they cannot be changed.

Anyway, both as a doctor and as a person interested in making this a central part of their life I would be very interested in hearing of anyone's experiences, don't be shy (maybe a PM if not wanting the stigma attached?)! Or indeed would also be interested in how people feel it is a load of old tosh for the middle classes.

Cheers

[gerrudd]

I would suggest giving it a try. I bought a book called 8 Minute Meditation, about a decade ago. As a title suggests it provided a framework for a short meditation practice, with different mediation technique to try over an 8 week practice. Off the back of that I started guided mindfulness session mainly using the UCLA mindfulness app. I did that regularly until two years ago. I still do it occasionally. I think it helps in managing negative self talk and just calming the mind. I've never struggled to sleep but on the occasional night I have a too many thoughts spinning around it helps calm the mind and get me nodding off.

I don't think mindfulness is a panacea, I don't think it makes you a better person, and I don't think it is a miracle cure for anxiety. However it does help, or at least it helped me, and it requires a very minimal investment in time and money.

[PawG]

It’s a very deep subject with a lot of different methods/opinions on what works, what doesn’t. Everyone’s different and I don’t think there’s 1 method that works for all. I’ve done meditation for over a year, every day, without fail and I didn’t notice that much improvement in my mood overall. What works for me though, is road cycling. Even on a short (1h) ride, I get sensations similar (but stronger) to what meditation would give me. It clears my mind way better than any meditation I’ve tried and makes life easier. Maybe I’m just a simple man, not at all spiritual and simple things do it for me?


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[watchstudent]

I think the feeling you get while cycling probably is spiritual, whatever that means. I think it is quite common for sports (especially extreme ones) and exercise to give an affect which is basically the same sort of thing as meditation - simply awareness. Awareness of your thoughts but not being wrapped up in your thoughts. Another word used for it is "flow". When you are truly present in the here and now and nothing else really matters.

I think in terms of simple things as you put it. Initial practice at mindfulness should be to do with simple things, as there you will be able to focus your attention on one simple thing. Most types of meditation will be the same, the focus is the most simple of things, the breath (a lot of the time, doesn't have to be). If you want to, I think it is probably possible to bring that type of attention to most of your life, it is a skill that needs training, like anything else I guess.

It’s a very deep subject with a lot of different methods/opinions on what works, what doesn’t. Everyone’s different and I don’t think there’s 1 method that works for all. I’ve done meditation for over a year, every day, without fail and I didn’t notice that much improvement in my mood overall. What works for me though, is road cycling. Even on a short (1h) ride, I get sensations similar (but stronger) to what meditation would give me. It clears my mind way better than any meditation I’ve tried and makes life easier. Maybe I’m just a simple man, not at all spiritual and simple things do it for me?


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[Neil.C]

Or indeed would also be interested in how people feel it is a load of old tosh for the middle classes.

Cheers

I think it is a bit like that.

As you say a whole industry has been built around this stuff and mindfulness is the new buzzword.

At the core I think anything that allows you to turn off from life for a while will be extremely beneficial for your mental health.

PawG above says that cycling does it for him. With me it is guitar playing. Whilst concentrating on that everything else is forgotten.

[Kingstepper]

Agree, have a hobby, something involving exercise or dexterity (gardening or a craft like woodworking for example).

Wouldn’t count watch collecting or watching films...

[TaketheCannoli]

I've been practicing rather basic Mindfulness meditation for the last three years or so and it has been very, very helpful. I do a short meditation at least once a day and having that time to completely clear my head of all thoughts is brilliant. I'm so clear of thought I often fall asleep. I find the beauty of this kind of meditating is its flexibility; I can do it anywhere at any time, all I need is breath to concentrate on.

[TaketheCannoli]

Some hobbies give you more time to think and can therefore do more harm than good. Mindfulness is about clearing your mind of all thoughts to take pressure off and give you space.

Agree, have a hobby, something involving exercise or dexterity (gardening or a craft like woodworking for example).

Wouldn’t count watch collecting or watching films...

[Maysie]

Everything has to be categorised nowadays and given a jazzy title.

My own version of 'mindfulness' is to walk my dogs every day and just take a few minutes while I am out with them to listen to the birds, hear the stream babbling, watch my three dogs all chewing rotten sticks etc. I have no idea if this qualifies as 'mindfulness' or not, but I do feel better afterwards.
Each to their own I guess and it works for me.

[Geralt]

Off and on have been practising zazen (Zen meditation) for a number of years, but there is a meditation practice for everyone. It's really a simplified space and about the meditator rather than achieving some blissful state.

As has been mentioned it's a deep subject and there is a vast amount of reading matter. Tolle's book is as good a place as any to start. Can recommend 'Meditation' by Osho and 'The Miracle Of Mindfulness' by Thich Nhat Hanh if you want to explore further.

[magirus]

Wish I had time to meditate, what with cycling, photography, guitars etc etc. Seems like a load of bollo**s to me.

[TaketheCannoli]

It's far from that, it's a simple and effective tool that massively assists those with anxiety disorders.

Wish I had time to meditate, what with cycling, photography, guitars etc etc. Seems like a load of bollo**s to me.

[Kingstepper]

Some hobbies give you more time to think and can therefore do more harm than good. Mindfulness is about clearing your mind of all thoughts to take pressure off and give you space.

If that’s the case just watching TV would probably be better than such hobbies.

Maybe I’m lucky but don’t see need to clear my mind but might hobbies help in that you will be more relaxed and generally happier?

[snowman]

I can't claim to have explored 'mindfulness and meditation' in any formal sense, but I agree that a hobby that requires mental involvement is very relaxing.

I always find Skiing and Scuba-diving very relaxing as they need a high degree of focus on what you're doing much of the time which pushes the worries of everyday life out of the way, at least for a while.

I can recall people saying to me "Oh God, no, I want to relax when I go on holiday and sit on the beach with a good book", but to me that seemed the opposite of relaxing.

The distraction of 'doing' something is, to me, far more mentally relaxing.

Maybe if you've a very physical job, a week doing little is equally rewarding, but I've worked in IT all my working life, so none of those colleagues saying it were tabbing across the Falklands or carrying bricks on hods!

M

[JonRA]

I'm close to the cycling idea for clearing my mind and relaxing - though in my case it is swimming. When I was younger just swimming lengths for 30-60 minutes was great for creating a feeling of wellbeing (and keeping the weight off!)


Recently I have been sea swimming 3-5 times a week on the Suffolk coast. It is variable in terms of how much swimming happens, depending on how rough it is (and occasionally it is too rough to go in) but the combination of exercise and cold - plus a social element as there are always others around - is a brilliant, energising way to start the day.

[Geralt]

It's far from that, it's a simple and effective tool that massively assists those with anxiety disorders.

I think it's fair to mention that it can help anyone. You don't have to have any sort of disorder :o)

[ach5]

If you have the time; meditate for 20 minutes.

If you don’t have the time; meditate for an hour!

...as the old saying goes.

It’s massively helpful thing to do, for those who truly understand it. But you do have to buy into it wholly to gain any benefit.

[Omegamanic]

I am a sceptic (of most things really). Only when meditation was explained in the way of spending personal time in mindfulness or relaxation or similar did it make any sense to me. I couldn't therefore say I have ever meditated, as I have never reached a particular state while attempting to, but over the last year I have shut myself away from outside distractions (no music, tv, radio or people) and just relaxed for between 15 to 45 minutes at least twice a week and I feel it's of some benefit.

[Neil.C]

Wish I had time to meditate, what with cycling, photography, guitars etc etc. Seems like a load of bollo**s to me.

It's far from that, it's a simple and effective tool that massively assists those with anxiety disorders.

Bob was being rather tongue in cheek by saying that he apparently has no time to meditate as he has so many other interests taking up his time.

Being immersed in an interesting hobby is the finest form of meditation IMO.

[ralphy]

It's a subject that I find to be highly interesting.

Having started from a point of being rather dismissive of meditation - and that was long before I'd even heard of mindfulness - I've changed my view(s) somewhat. The biggest shift in the paradigm for me was seeing the tangible results in people who had taken up meditation and particularly when it was combined with yoga. So I began to explore it, then started to practice it and discovered that it certainly brought benefits for myself.

Not so much a road to Damascus moment, but more a gradual acceptance that it can help in varying degrees.

R

[NickGaters]

For me it’s all about focusing on one thing to the exclusion of everything else. Medication apps help me get to that kind of state without having to be in a specific place/time or spending money on a hobby. I was always a sceptic of it...until I went through a pretty bad couple of years and my wife got me into it.

Takes a bit of practice to learn to focus on the meditation, but it’s quickly learned and becomes a habit to slip into it. I annoy my wife no end as she’ll put on a meditation app at bedtime and no matter how terrible or frustrating a day I’ve had, I end up falling asleep in minutes. And I’ve been an insomniac all my adult life. So it does work.

The alternative during the daytime for me is cycling. As others have said, you get stuck into the moment and have to focus completely on what you’re doing. The time passes without you knowing about it, and it’s a good way to clear out your mind and refresh. I see focusing on a hobby and meditating almost the same thing - though clearly I avoid falling asleep while cycling.

[bry nylon]

I have never tried mindfullness or meditation but I'm another one to say cycling helps me in that kind of way. I have described cycling to friends and family as being more like meditation than exercise to me. I can peddle along and think of all sorts of things and nothing if that makes any sense..
Of course cycling here in London you have to be fully focused on what's happening around and in front of you, but if you can get out to some quieter roads then you can let your mind drift and get lost in the moment whilst appreciating the sights and sounds of the countryside and wildlife..
Just come back from 2 weeks in Tipperary visiting my sister who lives near Cashel. It was great to be cycling along the quiet backroads with the fresh air and lots of birdlife and just looking out for the odd tractor.. mind you, on some of the back roads the tarmac is in a bad state so you had to focus on that a bit!

[Mick P]

If you think meditation will help you to live a calmer life, then do it. I have a friend who does it and he swears by it. I on the other hand think of it as a gimmick.

We are all different so just do what suits you.

[watchstudent]

Really very interesting to read other people's thoughts and experiences. Also, remarkable to see how therapeutic cycling is for a lot of people!

I think a lot of the more negative views are based a bit on the idea of meditation rather than the process itself. Because the idea has been hijacked by buzzwords and new-age mystic types.

In my eyes, meditation is nothing other than trying to become aware of compulsive thinking (of which 99% doesn't serve and actually causes suffering in a hell of a lot of people) and refocusing that awareness on an object like the breath. Meditation, I guess, is different to cycling because it is done with the intention of having this affect, whereas it is a lovely byproduct of cycling or guitar playing. And I guess having a practice where this is actually the intention may make it more likely that you can bring this awareness to more areas of your life - so when doing the dishes you can be paying attention to doing the dishes instead of doing the dishes plus doing a lot of unconscious thinking that adds to anxiety and worry about the future.

Basically any activity that enables you to stop thinking about anything other than the thing you are doing could be classed as meditative. Giving it a name does nothing more than bring a bit of intention to it and maybe adding some conscious value to that idea, so that you might carry it over to more of your life.

For me anyway it seems, think less = worry less = be happier and actually get more done

Sorry, one last wee point. I think another really important point is that it is part of a process of taking responsibility for your own happiness, rather than just being a victim of circumstance if you are unhappy. This won't really be relevant to people that feel happy most of the time, but for those that don't, it really is vital if you want to feel better.

[CamCG]

There was something about meditation and mindfulness in a recent edition of the British Medical Journal (BMJ).

They are widely promoted as ways to reduce stress and improve mental wellbeing.

However, the outcomes of these two practices are not always positive.

In summary...

'A systematic review uncovers a variety of adverse effects, including anxiety, depression, thought disorganisation, and visual and auditory hallucinations (Acta Psych Scand doi:10.1111/acps.13225). The reviewers also identify biases that have led to the under-reporting of adverse events.'

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3725

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[sjedwardz]

I got into it at the start of the pandemic. For me running, especially trail runs have been the thing that helps me release.
I think it’s a mixture of concentrating where you are going, not falling over the many obstacles and the physical exertion.

It really does make you switch off whilst you are doing it.

When we hit lock down I struggle a bit so downloaded a few mindfulness apps. I use Calm and Balance which are both very good in walking you through the process.

This has been very useful and something you can do everyday at a time that suits. I only do 10 minutes each day.

I had tried meditation in the past but just couldn’t get it. The guided apps really help you and assist in not having too much mind drift.

[Itsguy]

It’s an effective tool and regular practice can certainly lead to fewer neurotic and destructive emotional states, and towards more spontaneously joyful states that don’t depend on the up and down of outer circumstances. It’s not all smiles and rainbows though. To CamCG’s point, there’s a certain amount of work, and anyone who’s gone deeply into it will be familiar with the odd difficult thing ‘coming up’ that needs working through. This process seems worth it in retrospect. However anxiety can be a serious condition, and clinical conditions may need clinical attention.

If you’re serious, find a good teacher from a long line of good teachers. There are plenty of charlatans, overexcited beginners, self-proclaimed gurus and dubious cult-like groups around, so check out the teacher carefully. There are also many different teachings and practices that lead in different directions, so it’s a case of seeing where you have a connection and what hits the spot for you. Person to person transmission is crucial though, possibly a bit more challenging in these socially distanced times.

[Olly]

I find Headspace really useful, you may still be able to make use of the free year they gave to NHS staff at the start of COVID.

[Andrzej]

I think it is a very useful technique, and wish I had known more when I was working and stressed. My release has always been slow steady runs and cycles, during which I went into a "dissociative" state. This still works for me today. Though I start every day with a form of Tai Chi,and that gives me a meditative 15 minutes as soon as I am up. Certainly works for me.

[Essexman]

I started Yoga classes just over two years ago, part of which is meditation. In fact you could say all of yoga class is meditation. Really when practicing the poses or practicing breathing exercises it’s still meditation. It works for me, if I don’t practice for some reason I know it.
I wish I'd found Yoga 20 years ago

[tintin]

I sporadically do yoga, guided meditations and guided sound baths all of which have an amazing calming effect on my life at the time. What also resonates is the comment above about active holidays being "relaxing" - I used to ski and snowboard alot when I lived in Sweden / Munich, I surf on most holidays now and next year (Covid willing) will be trekking in the Himalaya.... I generally come back from holiday physically spent and mentally refreshed... :). My most zen moment so far is bobbing around in the ocean waiting for a wave with my son off the coast of West Africa watching the sunset.....

[watchstudent]

My most zen moment so far is bobbing around in the ocean waiting for a wave with my son off the coast of West Africa watching the sunset.....

Incredible.

I am a terrible surfer as I only do it a few times a year but when I do, it is an incredible all encompassing activity, all of your attention is right there. Similar with scuba diving actually.

[tintin]

Incredible.

I am a terrible surfer as I only do it a few times a year but when I do, it is an incredible all encompassing activity, all of your attention is right there. Similar with scuba diving actually.

I too am a terrible surfer but I've never done anything else that is so "in the moment", and the sharing with my boys or a couple of mates (or a seal in October in Newquay) in between sets is pretty special :)

[Paradiddle]

Off and on have been practising zazen (Zen meditation) for a number of years, but there is a meditation practice for everyone. It's really a simplified space and about the meditator rather than achieving some blissful state.

I also used to practice some zazen. My first sit being a half day workshop, which was a bit of a plunge for someone with no experience. I agree on not expecting or trying to achieve some blissful state.

I haven't done it regularly for a number of years but do give it a go every so often. Personally it helps me to be more conscious of my own and other people's perspectives and emotions.

Doing yoga has a similar effect to me but I do try to focus more on the asanas rather than the self. Headspace has helped me to calm my anxiety and get sleep during a time when I travelled a lot for work.

[Seamaster73]

Smoke a pipe.

[Essexman]

I should add, I’m not brilliant at yoga! I can’t sit crossed legged on the floor (I use a block), can’t easily reach my toes out front sitting legs straight (I use a strap), I’m not very flexible (doesn’t matter).
Talking of zen moments. At the start of summer I performed 108 Sun salutations. I’d never done this before, took almost one and a half hours. It was tough, both physically and mentally.
At around a third of the way in I started to experience a sort of mild meditative state as I fell into the rhythm of the flow, this caused a pleasant sense of calm/peace (maybe caused by the repetitive rhythmic movement/ breathing?).
Towards the end followed a sense of clarity or maybe what I would deem a clear head/mind.
Strangely, rather than feeling knackered I finished feeling very uplifted and energetic.

[WarrenVrs]

Been using the headspace app for a long time, combined with some yoga and wim Hoff breathing/cold exposure. It's been beneficial for me, but I think you do have to buy into it to get the benefit.

Helped a lot with the aftermath of my son's death, and his brother being in hospital for a prolonged period. I don't get lost in the negative thoughts these days, but they aren't ignored/repressed either.

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[pacifichrono]

I've been interested in the "mindfulness/in the moment" trend and just bought Mindfulness for Beginners (Kindle), by Jon Kabat-Zinn, Ph.D., THANKS to the OP and this thread! I'll report back when I finish it.

[watchstudent]

I've been interested in the "mindfulness/in the moment" trend and just bought Mindfulness for Beginners (Kindle), by Jon Kabat-Zinn, Ph.D., THANKS to the OP and this thread! I'll report back when I finish it.

I have his book “Full catastrophe living”, it is quite a tomb though so starting with Eckhart Tolle’s book first.

Alongside mindfulness I have been developing an interest in Stoic philosophy which seems to be becoming quite popular. Chap called Ryan Holiday has written a few books, but also Darren Brown has a really good one.

[pacifichrono]

...Alongside mindfulness I have been developing an interest in Stoic philosophy which seems to be becoming quite popular.

Due I suppose to my Swedish/German ancestry, stoicism is my natural way of dealing with the world! I wouldn't mind being more spontaneous and passionate sometimes.

[mart broad]

Everything has to be categorised nowadays and given a jazzy title.

My own version of 'mindfulness' is to walk my dogs every day and just take a few minutes while I am out with them to listen to the birds, hear the stream babbling, watch my three dogs all chewing rotten sticks etc. I have no idea if this qualifies as 'mindfulness' or not, but I do feel better afterwards.
Each to their own I guess and it works for me.

You and me both

[prexelor]

On Amex app I have seen one year free subscription to Calm app. Second year of half price.

[Kingstepper]

Go to a mixed yoga class, sit at the back and relax.

More seriously, IMO people should be trying to get to the root of their problems rather than using these techniques to clear their head.
What is it in their head and why are people stressed? Get rid of the causes rather than a temporary fix of yoga or whatever.

[Itsguy]

Go to a mixed yoga class, sit at the back and relax.

More seriously, IMO people should be trying to get to the root of their problems rather than using these techniques to clear their head.
What is it in their head and why are people stressed? Get rid of the causes rather than a temporary fix of yoga or whatever.

It‘s a common misconception to think meditation is simply clearing your head, or about temporary fixes. In reality, it’s about as you say getting right down to the root causes of problems. There are some techniques that aim for calming the mind and a temporary state without thoughts, as part of a wider teaching program, but this is very much not the point in itself. Sadly these techniques are often presented in isolation, and while people may get some limited benefit, it’s really missing the big picture. That’s why properly trained teachers are so important.

[Kingstepper]

It‘s a common misconception to think meditation is simply clearing your head, or about temporary fixes. In reality, it’s about as you say getting right down to the root causes of problems. There are some techniques that aim for calming the mind and a temporary state without thoughts, as part of a wider teaching program, but this is very much not the point in itself. Sadly these techniques are often presented in isolation, and while people may get some limited benefit, it’s really missing the big picture. That’s why properly trained teachers are so important.

Okay, just an impression I had from reading some previous posts.

The techniques appear very similar to religion w/o having to believe - chanting in Eastern religions or Muslims praying 5 times a day (both the physical aspect and Koranic recitation).

[Itsguy]

religion w/o having to believe

Not a bad description! ;-)

It’s about being present in whatever situation you happen to be in. Keep it up for a while and you may find disturbing mental states dissolving by themselves, along with some insight into what caused them, and more useful states appearing instead. Or you may not. Belief is not required, it’s more a case of try it for yourself and see.

As several people have mentioned, some activities promote this naturally. For me it’s riding fast motorcycles - if you’re not present there’s a tendency to crash, which certainly focuses the mind!

[dice]

Since my teenage years, I've had anger issues. Short fuse, wildly varying irritability - almost unpredictable. Never diagnosed with anything but even I admit I could go from relaxed to tensed up very quickly.

I'm currently 31, even in my professional career this carried on. Joined a software startup and they were big on health, so on top of private health insurance and dental we all also got a Headspace membership (its a mindfulness app with guided meditations). I've now been practicing for little over a year, and the difference is absolutely palpable. It requires some open-mindedness and commitment, but now if I ever skip more than 2 days in a row I actually notice myself slipping into that irritability again. 10 minutes every morning really just helps to plant my feet in the ground, open my eyes, and get a perspective on everything at the start of the day instead of getting caught up and bothered by stuff that ultimately does not matter.

[Paradiddle]

Not a bad description! ;-)

It’s about being present in whatever situation you happen to be in. Keep it up for a while and you may find disturbing mental states dissolving by themselves, along with some insight into what caused them, and more useful states appearing instead. Or you may not. Belief is not required, it’s more a case of try it for yourself and see.

As several people have mentioned, some activities promote this naturally. For me it’s riding fast motorcycles - if you’re not present there’s a tendency to crash, which certainly focuses the mind!

I agree with this. Well put.

I find with some of my close family members that they cannot see the real problem to things objectively in a crisis. Emotions cloud their judgement and they can't think clearly.

Clearing your mind doesn't make the problem go away but in those moments of crisis, having a clear head and acknowledging your emotions really help you to get to the root of the problem. You can see meditation and mindfulness as training not to think... in order to think clearly when you need to.

[watchstudent]

You can see meditation and mindfulness as training not to think... in order to think clearly when you need to.

I like that. I would add not only are you training to think clearly but to also see the reality of situations or "problems", rather than have your mind create illusions. The illusions were helpful when the brain evolved to protect you from sabre toothed tigers and environmental dangers, not so helpful in our modern world.

I think an important thing to note as well is that many people will be totally happy being wrapped up in thoughts all the time (if they are happy and self-serving thoughts then no issues really), there is nothing wrong with it, being mindful is just an alternative way of "being" that will suit a lot of people a lot more due to their minds unhelpful tendencies.

[Seamaster73]

"SERENITY NOW!"