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Thread: Where are we going with electric cars?

  1. #51

    Where are we going with electric cars?

    I went for a spin in a Tesla 3 yesterday and it significantly exceeded my expectations in terms of the performance, handling, ride and available technology.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  2. #52
    Master bobbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    I went for a spin in a Tesla 3 yesterday and it significantly exceeded my expectations in terms of the performance, handling, ride and available technology.

    R
    Can you define "spin" for me?...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    I was following a model S a few days ago on a country lane, we got to a straight as a slow car in front turned off. At the time we were both doing maybe 20 mph, he then shot off once clear - I reacted a little slow as I did not think he would and then followed. I can not say if he was at full acceleration but he did not pull much on me at all and being behind I had reaction lag. I was in a m240.
    There are so many versions of the S, but even the old Model S 60 is no slouch at all.

    A work colleague has a Model S P100D, it pulls sub 3 secs 0-60 as often as you like, in Ďgearí acceleration is bonkers, as is the 155mph limited top speed. £100k car though! No Tesla is slow is the point, even the base model 3.

    The M240 is a great car, my god son had a lovely one that was modified and quick, heís only recently changed it for a BMW M3.

  4. #54
    Grand Master TheFlyingBanana's Avatar
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    There are a lot of variants.

    Hypothetically, if I wanted the absolute fastest one, is that the P100DL?

    Is that the only one with the 2.5sec 0-60 time?
    So clever my foot fell off.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingBanana View Post
    There are a lot of variants.

    Hypothetically, if I wanted the absolute fastest one, is that the P100DL?

    Is that the only one with the 2.5sec 0-60 time?
    Thatís the one, the P100DL Raven.

    The P100D is still 2.5s 0-60 if it has the Ludicrous option though.

  6. #56
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that these cars obviously have mad power and stats, but donít look like hypercars, to get these figures from a ice car they are typically mid engines, massive aero packages on huge tyres, carbon brakes etc, are performance EVs straight line performers only? I canít image they can handle and corner like a sports car, surely the performance exceeds the stability of the car, but it wouldnít seem to be the case or more would have been made of the fact.
    Cheers..
    Jase

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    I find it interesting that these cars obviously have mad power and stats, but donít look like hypercars, to get these figures from a ice car they are typically mid engines, massive aero packages on huge tyres, carbon brakes etc, are performance EVs straight line performers only? I canít image they can handle and corner like a sports car, surely the performance exceeds the stability of the car, but it wouldnít seem to be the case or more would have been made of the fact.
    Perhaps it means a lot of the traditional hyper car looks were cosmetic, rather than necessary?

    Iím not saying that a Model S will lap the Ďring quicker than a GT3, thereís clearly more to a performance car than just straight line speed, but the Model 3 Performance shows that they can handle as well, and thatís before we get to the Porsche Taycan which is on another level again.

    Most EVs are not performance cars though, despite a lot of them having straight line performance, if that makes sense. As effortlessly quick road cars though, the sportier EVs are very good.

  8. #58
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    I find it interesting that these cars obviously have mad power and stats, but donít look like hypercars, to get these figures from a ice car they are typically mid engines, massive aero packages on huge tyres, carbon brakes etc, are performance EVs straight line performers only? I canít image they can handle and corner like a sports car, surely the performance exceeds the stability of the car, but it wouldnít seem to be the case or more would have been made of the fact.
    When you say 'handle and corner like a sports car', do you mean something lightweight like an MX-5 or anything with two seats, or with no luggage capacity, or what? I've driven sports cars that struggle to get round corners they weigh so much but as a two-seater without a roof most people would still them sports cars. I had a go in an F-Type SVR a couple of years ago and was shocked by the way it handled so sharply, cornered flat and had a smooth ride while lugging around 1,700kg. Modern technology is making heavier cars handle better.
    "A man of little significance"

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    I was following a model S a few days ago on a country lane, we got to a straight as a slow car in front turned off. At the time we were both doing maybe 20 mph, he then shot off once clear - I reacted a little slow as I did not think he would and then followed. I can not say if he was at full acceleration but he did not pull much on me at all and being behind I had reaction lag. I was in a m240.
    Thereís this old one.


    https://youtu.be/JUW0l7bZn1s

    And this one.


    https://youtu.be/RY_rbooeMcI


    So I guess the guy in the Tesla wasnít really trying!

  10. #60
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    I've yet to see a Tesla going fast. The ones I tend to get stuck behind are doing 20mph, presumably trying to get home. Not by any means all Teslas I see, but I've been sitting behind probably four or five going extremely slowly on country roads.
    "A man of little significance"

  11. #61
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    When you say 'handle and corner like a sports car', do you mean something lightweight like an MX-5 or anything with two seats, or with no luggage capacity, or what? I've driven sports cars that struggle to get round corners they weigh so much but as a two-seater without a roof most people would still them sports cars. I had a go in an F-Type SVR a couple of years ago and was shocked by the way it handled so sharply, cornered flat and had a smooth ride while lugging around 1,700kg. Modern technology is making heavier cars handle better.
    I mean that to get equivalent power and performance stats in a petrol car, its usually a McLaren / Ferrari / Lamborghini etc, with race car looks and tech, performance Teslas seem to be able to compete in the speed stakes but without the need to look like a sports car, I just found it a interesting comparison.
    Cheers..
    Jase

  12. #62
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    Maybe it's just me but owning the Model S since 2014, I've 'floored' it maybe 10 times.

    It's fun initially but reality sets in quickly and longer term it'll cost you in tyres and extra electricity.

    Sent from my EVR-L29 using Tapatalk

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    I went for a spin in a Tesla 3 yesterday and it significantly exceeded my expectations in terms of the performance, handling, ride and available technology.

    R
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    Can you define "spin" for me?...
    Ah yes, good point: those 'spins' where you don't stray anywhere from the front of your garage drive just don't cut it for me.

    My spin was a mixture of dual carriageways, A and B roads and country lanes for a couple of hours, plus a bit of 'spirited' testing in an empty industrial estate.

    The memorable features for me were numerous but here's a few: the spaciousness in the cabin, the complete absence of buttons/knobs, the capacity of the two boots, how well it held bends and the overall grip, hearing only the tires, the instantaneous acceleration, the radars/cameras, the central display, ... the list does go on and on.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  14. #64
    Master pacifichrono's Avatar
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    Our California Governor Gavin Newsom is proposing a total phase-out of gasoline vehicles by 2035.

    I foresee embedding solar panels in the roofs of cars for recharging purposes. Why waste the sun's energy?

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    Can you define "spin" for me?...
    Very good!
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    I find it interesting that these cars obviously have mad power and stats, but donít look like hypercars, to get these figures from a ice car they are typically mid engines, massive aero packages on huge tyres, carbon brakes etc, are performance EVs straight line performers only? I canít image they can handle and corner like a sports car, surely the performance exceeds the stability of the car, but it wouldnít seem to be the case or more would have been made of the fact.
    Not anymore. The Mercedes E63s and the BMW M5 Competition, while easily identified by petrol heads, would easily slip under the radar of regular people. Both with do 0-60 in just over 3 seconds.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Not anymore. The Mercedes E63s and the BMW M5 Competition, while easily identified by petrol heads, would easily slip under the radar of regular people. Both with do 0-60 in just over 3 seconds.
    And at £90-100k are a similar price to the model S.

    Theyíll cost quite a lot more over the life of the car though.

  18. #68
    The electric cars arenít great ha doing at present, which is a little strange as you have the ability to have almost perfect weight distribution and a very low CoG. Straight line speed with instant max torque canít be ignored though.

    Most Aero on exotics is wind tunnel tested for flow and downforce at speed. Most EVís are not 180+ or even 200mph+ vehicles compared to ICE exotics.
    It's just a matter of time...

  19. #69
    Interestingly a friend of mine is sitting waiting in a queue waiting to get in a charger, seems if you haven’t got a Tesla this is how it is

    This has added three hours to his journey

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Interestingly a friend of mine is sitting waiting in a queue waiting to get in a charger, seems if you havenít got a Tesla this is how it is

    This has added three hours to his journey
    The Tesla Supercharger one I visited on Wed had 8 bays with 1 occupied when I arrived there.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    I've yet to see a Tesla going fast. The ones I tend to get stuck behind are doing 20mph, presumably trying to get home. Not by any means all Teslas I see, but I've been sitting behind probably four or five going extremely slowly on country roads.
    Check out an unmodified Tesla 3 at Nurburgring.



    And then a modified Tesla 3 there.


    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  22. #72
    Master Pitch3110's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    I've yet to see a Tesla going fast. The ones I tend to get stuck behind are doing 20mph, presumably trying to get home. Not by any means all Teslas I see, but I've been sitting behind probably four or five going extremely slowly on country roads.
    It is just such a relaxing drive and you do find yourself chilling more.

    Trust me the Model 3 Performance is unbelievably quick and I could link several videos showing this against what are considered quick ICE cars.

    Everyone I have taken out in mine over the past month have been blow away by the interior, the technology, the media sound and of course the sheer brutal torque and power, and some of those are true petrolhead.

    The whole cost thing with all EV's is just nuts how cheap it is and then factor in free charging and it is bonkers.

    Pitch

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    And at £90-100k are a similar price to the model S.

    Theyíll cost quite a lot more over the life of the car though.
    Oh Iím not disputing that, just pointing out that cars with supercar performance donít always look like they will have supercar performance.

  24. #74
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Agreed, I was just also pointing out that, whilst expensive, the model S is on a par with similar performance ICE vehicles.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Interestingly a friend of mine is sitting waiting in a queue waiting to get in a charger, seems if you havenít got a Tesla this is how it is

    This has added three hours to his journey
    Three hours? Where was he?

    I tend to only use the multi bay Instavolt chargers now, very rare to find them all in use, and even if they were Iíd drive to the next nearest.

    Driving an EV beyond its battery range does require a bit of forethought, but itís getting easier every month as multi charger sites are opening. Re the Tesla SC sites, itís a great experience, but even they arenít everywhere and you do get queuing sometimes particularly during holiday season in Europe.

    Iíve never heard of anybody queuing that long though and adding 3 hours to their journey. Iíve never had to queue in 5 years of driving an EV. Iíve arrived at single site chargers and found them occupied, of course, but I avoid single sites now for that reason, and itís easy to plan to avoid them even in a middling range car like mine.

  26. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Three hours? Where was he?

    I tend to only use the multi bay Instavolt chargers now, very rare to find them all in use, and even if they were Iíd drive to the next nearest.

    Driving an EV beyond its battery range does require a bit of forethought, but itís getting easier every month as multi charger sites are opening. Re the Tesla SC sites, itís a great experience, but even they arenít everywhere and you do get queuing sometimes particularly during holiday season in Europe.

    Iíve never heard of anybody queuing that long though and adding 3 hours to their journey. Iíve never had to queue in 5 years of driving an EV. Iíve arrived at single site chargers and found them occupied, of course, but I avoid single sites now for that reason, and itís easy to plan to avoid them even in a middling range car like mine.
    He was in Rotherham, had driven up to pick something up, he had to wait over an hour to get on a charger, the total journey took three hours longer than when he did it last week in his discovery.

  27. #77
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Check out an unmodified Tesla 3 at Nurburgring.



    And then a modified Tesla 3 there.


    R
    In spite of my location on here, I live in Hampshire.

    I know they go fast, I've just not seen it happen yet and tend to get stuck behind them.
    "A man of little significance"

  28. #78
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    Walking on rural roads as i have always done my whole life, i have never had a single problem with cars because you can hear them comming.

    Then one day i almost got killed and guess what kind of car it was.

    Electric.

    Couldnt hear the stupid thing.

    I would bet my house plenty of extra deaths will happen due to these silent turds on wheels

  29. #79
    These quiet cars affect your eyesight as well?

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    Our California Governor Gavin Newsom is proposing a total phase-out of gasoline vehicles by 2035.

    I foresee embedding solar panels in the roofs of cars for recharging purposes. Why waste the sun's energy?
    I live in the UK; can you explain this 'Sun' thing to me?


    Also

    I was picking my car up from its MOT and the admin lady was standing outside pointing out where to pick up my keys when she nearly got knocked over by a mechanic reversing an EV (hybrid I suppose) -- I thought there were moves afoot to get them to make a noise below a certain speed (not before a few thousand people are killed, I guess)

    [Yes I did yell 'watch out for that car reversing!']

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Walking on rural roads as i have always done my whole life, i have never had a single problem with cars because you can hear them comming.

    Then one day i almost got killed and guess what kind of car it was.

    Electric.

    Couldnt hear the stupid thing.

    I would bet my house plenty of extra deaths will happen due to these silent turds on wheels
    Thereís actually very little difference in sound between electric and road cars once over 15mph, thatís why the compulsory pedestrian warning sounds are not active after that point.

    Tyre and wind noise make up most of the noise you hear from a car at speed unless itís got a ĎBarry boyí exhaust system of course.

    I expect it was coincidence that it was an electric car that nearly did for you, they donít levitate and operate in a vacuum.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Walking on rural roads as i have always done my whole life, i have never had a single problem with cars because you can hear them comming.

    Then one day i almost got killed and guess what kind of car it was.

    Electric.

    Couldnt hear the stupid thing.

    I would bet my house plenty of extra deaths will happen due to these silent turds on wheels
    Could not agree more. In fact I would say since having the Tesla it has made me creep around and a lot more alert of folk walking near me. Having said that I am sure there are idiots flying around just as normal oblivious that pedestrians cannot actually hear them.

    Pitch

  33. #83
    Master steptoe's Avatar
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    My VW UP! ( considered a very small car) is wider and heavier than the original MK1 golf, which in no way was considered a small car at the time.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by steptoe View Post
    My VW UP! ( considered a very small car) is wider and heavier than the original MK1 golf, which in no way was considered a small car at the time.
    But a bit shorter I guess.

    Must admit I'm surprised that its wider and heavier - I remember when there were lots of Mk1s about and yes, they weren't exactly thought of as micro cars.

    In my youth there were lots of what would now be considered very small cars about. The old fibreglass 3 wheelers from Bond and Reliant for a start. The original Mini's (I gave up on my last one due to speed bumps where I lived) and things like A30s really seem tiny when you see the odd one now. My uncle who was over 6' drove a bright red Bubble Car in the mid 60's - he kind of had to 'fold himself in and out but he loved it.

    A return to much smaller, lighter and less complex cars would be a very good thing in my view. Perhaps taking them on size and weight is the way to go.


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  35. #85
    Grand Master Velorum's Avatar
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    Oh, and a modern version of the bright orange Bond Bug with a more comfortable seats proper side window would be great.


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  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitch3110 View Post
    Could not agree more. In fact I would say since having the Tesla it has made me creep around and a lot more alert of folk walking near me. Having said that I am sure there are idiots flying around just as normal oblivious that pedestrians cannot actually hear them.

    Pitch
    Iím the same when Iím Ďcreeping aroundí at low speed, as in extra alert, as EVs are quieter at walking pace, but thatís what the sound generator is meant to mitigate.

    Underway at road speeds though, although EVs are generally quieter than ICE cars, theyíre far from silent.

    What sound does the Tesla pedestrian alert system make, never heard one?

  37. #87
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    Where are we going with electric cars?

    When I first got an EV five years ago, a lady bent down to toe her shoe laces tight in front of me in a car park. Iím always very aware of pedestrians in very low speed situations but at anything other than a walking pace theyíre almost as loud as most ICE vehicles.

    I do think some pedestrians are out to get themselves killed though but thatís not what weíre discussing here.

    If I had to have a found generator though, Iíd want it to sound like a WSB 916 on full chat!

  38. #88
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    I don't think the Tesla makes a sound at low speeds.. Some cars do though.. the Leaf and the Korean ones do.

    I read some people install a wireless doorbell and put on a custom sound to alert pedestrians.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKitega View Post
    I don't think the Tesla makes a sound at low speeds.. Some cars do though.. the Leaf and the Korean ones do.

    I read some people install a wireless doorbell and put on a custom sound to alert pedestrians.
    Ah yes, just read it only applies to new models homologated since July 2019, so as all Teslaís were on sale before then itís not mandatory until the middle of next year.

    I also read that Elon Musk favoured the sound of two coconuts imitating a horse as the noise but unfortunately probably only in the US, as not compliant in the EU.

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    In spite of my location on here, I live in Hampshire.

    I know they go fast, I've just not seen it happen yet and tend to get stuck behind them.
    Not been behind me in my Model 3 in Hampshire then

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitch3110 View Post
    The whole cost thing with all EV's is just nuts how cheap it is and then factor in free charging and it is bonkers.

    Pitch
    I'd say, enjoy that while it lasts. I suspect that when everyone is pressed into having a SMET2 smart meter installed as per the government plan, that will change. With usage automatically sent in every few minutes it will be possible to calculate when you started charging your EV and for how long.

    As non-electric cars get phased out, the government will need to find some way of clawing back the tax take lost on petrol/diesel sales (currently around 70% of the price per litre) and increasing the KWh rate when charging your EV, or adding an 'EV charging supplement', would be an easy option as the monitoring and charging structure will be in place if every house already has a SMET2 "automated usage monitor".

    It's cheap to charge an EV now, which is one of the main selling points, but if the charging cost can be changed arbitrarily just like fuel duty, there may not be any financial "fuel" advantage at all in the longer term.

    Rich.

  42. #92
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    Thereís no doubt about it, in the longer term, EVs will be taxed in line with current fuel duties. The government will have to claw back their lost income somehow.

    Itís just a case of enjoying it whilst we can.

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie_101 View Post
    I'd say, enjoy that while it lasts. I suspect that when everyone is pressed into having a SMET2 smart meter installed as per the government plan, that will change. With usage automatically sent in every few minutes it will be possible to calculate when you started charging your EV and for how long.

    As non-electric cars get phased out, the government will need to find some way of clawing back the tax take lost on petrol/diesel sales (currently around 70% of the price per litre) and increasing the KWh rate when charging your EV, or adding an 'EV charging supplement', would be an easy option as the monitoring and charging structure will be in place if every house already has a SMET2 "automated usage monitor".

    It's cheap to charge an EV now, which is one of the main selling points, but if the charging cost can be changed arbitrarily just like fuel duty, there may not be any financial "fuel" advantage at all in the longer term.

    Rich.
    Does a smart meter know what item is using electricity then? Itís possible to charge a smaller EV on a 3 pin plug overnight. That would be a continuous slow trickle charge compared to using the 7KW chargers.

  44. #94
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    I very much doubt that the current smart meters are quite that smart yet. Iíve no doubt that will come in time though.

    Currently, vehicles communicate with the charge point prior to and during charging so thereís plenty of scope for monitoring there.

    Also, almost every new vehicle (both ICE and EV) these days can communicate itís whereabouts, mileage covered, state of health etc to an app on our phones so paying taxes on a ďpay as you driveĒ basis is, I believe, not too far away from being introduced.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Does a smart meter know what item is using electricity then? Itís possible to charge a smaller EV on a 3 pin plug overnight. That would be a continuous slow trickle charge compared to using the 7KW chargers.
    You may be right. I don't own an EV and I would be interested to hear more about charging rates, but the following info from the net suggests that charging an EV is the equivalent of boiling 1 kettle continously for 19hrs, or up to 3 kettles continously for 6hrs. The system wouldn't need to all that smart to pick that kind of demand up.

    Rich.

    "Today a top of the range EV will travel around 300 miles on a single charge, which requires a battery capacity of 90 kilowatt hours (kWh).

    An average size battery charger is 3.5 kW, equivalent to a fast boiling domestic kettle's electricity usage, would take about 19 hours to charge one of these batteries from 25 per cent full to fully charged.

    This time could be halved to ten hours with a 7 kW charger, a size which is already available and will soon become more widespread than 3.5 kW versions.

    An even more powerful 11 kW charger could take a Tesla Model S with a 90kW from 25 per cent full to fully charged in just six hours. "

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    I was following a model S a few days ago on a country lane, we got to a straight as a slow car in front turned off. At the time we were both doing maybe 20 mph, he then shot off once clear - I reacted a little slow as I did not think he would and then followed. I can not say if he was at full acceleration but he did not pull much on me at all and being behind I had reaction lag. I was in a m240.
    Depending on what it was he MAY have been giving it some beans but if it was a P then you would not have gotten close.

    I have driven some very swift ICE cars over the years and nothing comes close to the acceleration of a Performance Model 3, itís just brutally quick.

    Your motor is a very quick car, guessing 350bhp but the latest M3P is 500 and importantly the instant torque is just plain crazy. My wife has had new DSG Golf Rís over the last two years and I use to think they were swift, but the R is just plain sluggish in comparison.

  47. #97
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Diesel cars have been withdrawn from sale by a leading manufacturer in the clearest sign yet that their days on British roads are numbered.


    The Times has learnt that Honda has stopped selling new diesel cars, with the last vehicles expected to be out of dealerships within a few weeks.


    The Japanese company is the biggest manufacturer to date to ditch diesel in Britain after bringing forward plans to switch to 100 per cent green technology in the next two years.


    Honda will phase out pure petrol cars by the end of 2022, rather than 2025 as previously announced, in favour of hybrid and battery-powered models.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...arly-mtpfstnzp

  48. #98

    Where are we going with electric cars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richie_101 View Post
    You may be right. I don't own an EV and I would be interested to hear more about charging rates, but the following info from the net suggests that charging an EV is the equivalent of boiling 1 kettle continously for 19hrs, or up to 3 kettles continously for 6hrs. The system wouldn't need to all that smart to pick that kind of demand up.

    Rich.
    That sort of demand could be an electric heater.

    Smart technology to do what was asked does exist or is being developed though - https://www.technologyreview.com/201...ll-your-power/

  49. #99
    Craftsman
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    At the moment I'd imagine most EVs are on lease deals with company vehicles having favourable tax rates. Just wondering when we are likely to see a second hand market akin to ICE cars and whether running costs of say a 5 year old Tesla are like

    Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

  50. #100
    Master TKH's Avatar
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