Some interesting stuff in here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdo.../#57ed8ea8650b
and:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...e-ev-emissions
"Polestar’s calculations, based on the average global energy mix, show it would take 70,000 miles before the 2 had a CO2 advantage over the petrol XC40." I wonder at which point you need to replace (and recycle) the batteries and start adding to the tally again?
I just wish manufacturers could be encouraged to drastically reduce the weight and size of their cars. The heavier the car the larger amount of particulates from tyres too. Massive SUVs and cars mean bigger batteries and more weight. Yes, SUVs are already capable of carrying the new technology and extra weight but they're also receiving the subsidies to allow people to actually lease and drive them. I do see taxation based on weight coming though, it's just when (I think the French are looking into it, they're certainly looking into big taxes for anything producing even slightly high emmissions). There's a theory the large SUV and uneconomical car will die out as our children change their lifestyle habits (and possibly become embarrassed by our excesses!) but for now cars are all going in a worrying direction.
"A man of little significance"
And the lower the friction coëfficient of the rubber. See tyre load sensitivity.Originally Posted by Foxy100
More weight is more kinetic enegry to slow down and less fiction to slow it down. Definitely more báng for the buck.
Not read the safety problem of longer stopping distances anywhere.
And that is not mentioning the same in corners, emergency manouvres.
I'm not sure you will see size and weight reduce any time soon, as the regulators such as NCAP, NHTSA, have strong safety standards whitch the OEMs have to adhere to.
The OEMs also need the floorpan as large as possible to house the battery package. As for Tyres, these are specifically made for EV products car and Van to handle the driving characteristics and torque that an EV delivers and with lowish volumes, by ICE (internal combustion engines) vehicles, they are likely to be expensive to replace too. Alternative propulsion will continue to have a place, based on cost of ownership, PD and infrastructure.
As the Autocar report states, the EV proposition has many variables based on driving cycle, and where and how the vehicle is used, oh and an important point that most people seem to overlook is how the electricity is sourced, along with the materials such as Cobalt, Nickel that are needed to manufacture.
The question I often ask at is, would the consumer like some relatively low Co2/Nox from the tailpipe of an ICE powered vehicle, or electricity for your EV, having been likely generated from a coal burning power station churning out way higher levels of pollution?
The current ICE emissions are very clean today and from an energy perspective, the world is long on gasoline and short on diesel as a fuel.
Infact aside from Europe, RoW including Russia, MEA and Asia Pacific favours gasoline as its easier and more readily available from refining and infrastructure.
In my opinion, the world leaders and corporate decision makers have started the messaging that EV are good and ICE is bad, but not taking the wider environmental position into their communications. EV infrastructure worldwide has some way to go to satisfy consumer demand.
Both have a place at the table depending on geography, appetite for cost and drive cycles.
The OEMs are loading their future product cycle plans with EVs, lets hope there will be enough energy to support the volumes.
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I was thinking along similar lines the other day, some of these ‘family cars’ are the size of a transit van.
Car design is up its own arse, it’s as if they are producing what people think they want rather than need.
A Dutch friend told me the government there has been pushing for the phasing out of fossil fuel cars and moving to renewable energy only. Which doesn't quite add up!
"A man of little significance"
I would not agree that Car design is in this category.
Consumer research along with all the safety parameters that are baked into legislation today, make the engineering and design save lives.
Drivers are attracted to a higher driving position, thus SUVs and CUVs along with versatility are favoured today by the wider customer.
I get it to a point, but I personally still prefer the traditional vehicle styles, hatchback Station Wagon/estate for example, but the research is suggesting a real move away from these, so the OEMs are having to predict the ongoing future trends.
Its expensive to develop vehicles btw
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+1, I was thinking along similar lines yesterday. The fashion/ trend for SUVs is something I find hard to understand, especially the 4 wheel drive things, they’re no more practical than a decent hatchback or estate car. Do people really need these big heavy vehicles or are they simply drawn into the fashion aspect. To my eye they all look alike, just a different badge on the front........I don’t get it, I call them ugly- mobiles!
Many modern cars are too wide for UK roads and driveways too, I think the time has come to tax cars on size/ width.
Well....it is consumer demand that is driving the product and design direction.
The OEM product planners, are responding to the voice of the customer.
You may have a personal view, but the design teams respond to future trends and what ultimately the customer will choose.
We have seen a similar approach by the Watch manufacturers moving from a 36mm to 40+mm for example haven't we.
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I don't get the high driving position thing at all.
I'm not tall at 5' 9", but I'm not a midget and having to climb up or drop out of some of my friends SUVs isn't an experience I enjoy.
While I quite like being a passenger in a high vehicle, be it an SUV or a bus, I hate the feeling of sitting on top of a car when driving and the feeling it will fall over in corners even more.
I'm sure SUV fans will tell me they don't feel like that, but it's not my experience!
Personally, I'd never buy such a vehicle - I drive an estate car, which whilst not the sexiest thing on 4 wheels, does at least drive like a car, not a truck. Few people need the capabilities an SUV offers (and many can't even drive them anyway - I once passed a striken Mercedes SUV on a snow-covered motorway slip road in my RWD RX-8, a car someone described to me as 'undriveable on snow' - If I could get up it, the SUV should have found it a doddle!)
The only chink of light is the 'crossover' which do seem to be getting smaller and more car like all the time. I guess a time may come where I'd need to pick the least truck-like crossover SUV, but I don't look forward to it at all.
If legislation was as focussed on reducing vehicle weight (whilst retaining safety), designers and engineers would come up with solutions, but at the moment the focus is (as it was with diesel - Remember when that was the 'great idea'?) all on reducing CO2 directly from the vehicle - Short term, blinkered thinking from people with no real idea of what it means longer term.
Of course, high vehicles suit the electric car design agenda as you can stick all the batteries under the floor...
M
Last edited by snowman; 8th October 2020 at 13:49.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
They need to drastically lower the cost of hybrid / EV cars for a start, we looked a toyota CHR for the wife last year. From memory a 1.2 petrol was around £15k and the same age car with the hybrid engine was £22k. A tesla model S is £80k and a 3 is £42k. A jag F pace is £42k a E pace is £30k the I pace (electric) is £65k.
Those few examples show the hybrid / electric versions of similar cars are a huge jump up in prices, yes they cost less to run but that will not offset the huge purchase price initially.
I drive a m240i - not the most economical car in the world and use around £2k of petrol a year, so base that on a F pace to a I pace it would take 10 years to claw back the difference in money saved.
As to electric cars, I have a number of concerns.
- range. Currently no use for me.
- cost. China owns rights to 95% of the world's rare elements used in EV's. That's too much control.
- energy. Moving to renewable sources whilst increasing domestic and EV demands may lead us to a California style disaster.
- practicality. My Macan gets 40mpg, easily refuelable, has amazing range & can do much of my own work.
Not for me yet, I'm afraid.
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The manufacturers are more than happy to make SUVs because they can charge you more for them. 15 years ago we were all encouraged to buy diesels, now they're dead in the water. What the customer buys is often dictated by the cost of buying and taxing a vehicle. If you gradually increased the tax on heavier cars I bet they'll start getting lighter. But as you say, the customer is choosing these things so why shouldn't the customer pay properly for them?
"A man of little significance"
Who needs to lower the cost? Are the makers making greater margins on their EVs or is it just the greater cost to manufacture?
Self-charging hybrids are an evolutionary dead end and fuel economy isn’t that much greater than a very efficient petrol/diesel engine.
I'm not sure many OEMs are making money on selling EVs.
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I doubt it, Tesla have never turned a profit; but most manufacturers will be looking to slowly recover their R&D costs on a vehicle lifecycle and incorporate newer tech throughout their whole product range.
I must admit that I do enjoy a higher driving position and would consider a 4x4 just for that alone - given that overall traffic speeds seem to be reducing I may well go that way in the future, but I am likely to go for a last hurrah (as we still have no overall blanket speed limit here for the time being) and enjoy a final go at a sportier drive first. Still debating how sporty at present and trying to way up man maths, but I could be swayed on a half-way house on something like a BMW i8 with ICE and plug in capability.
It's just a matter of time...
Given that people will regain the ownership of their devices first. ;-)
Looking at Tesla, a 'car as a service' era is knocking at our door, which will further infringe on people's privacy and freedoms. Which, with how Gen-Y+ have been groomed to easily forgo those, will most likely go completely unnoticed.
Those safety requirements are passive and the minimum decelleration is a joke.
The tyeres being ´specially designed´ is a eufemism for the cars being too heavy for normal tyres. The rubber used has less friction coëfficient still!!
As I write; definitely a bigger báng for the moeny.
A very much more expensive car with the same or even a fractionally lówer margin stiil netts more profit.
Same thing all sorts of taxes for gvt.
What do mean by passive Safety?
The tyre equation has to accommodate the sheer torque delivery and to make the vehicle comply with the safety regulations. Im not sure i understand your point.
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We're told they don't need much servicing. Could be bad news for garage trade.
Most modern cars need less servicing though - lots have 20,000 service periods, and a basic service of my cars include a visual inspection of the wheels and discs/brakes with the wheels still in place and an oil/filter change - brake fluid every 2-3 years. So, an electric car will be similar re brakes and all fluids except engine oil. They are generally heavier, so suspension parts will no doubt need replacing sooner, and tyres have more torque going through them and will likely be replaced sooner too. but maybe harder to justify the charges on some cars for the garages, although anything with tech is outside the comfort zone of most owners so they will likely just continue to pay up...
It's just a matter of time...
Maybe, just what I've read on here from the evangelists.
Electric is the future, it's got so many advantages. But for most people, it's not quite there yet. Lack of infrastructure, high prices, rapidly evolving technology.
I think plugin hybrid is a great half-way-house, but when I was buying a car earlier this year there just wasn't the variety. I couldn't get a suitable one. So I ended up with a (non-plugin) hybrid.
Battery electric is a painful stopgap, mainly caused by governments dicking about with things they don't understand, the future is Hydrogen fuel cell,
Agreed.
I suspect we will end up with a hybrid of battery and hydrogen fuel cell, in effect a self-charging hybrid but using the fuel cell instead of ICE.
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There is virtually no brake wear on electric cars, since most the stopping is done via the motor. A set of disks will probably last the lifetime of the car, with only the fluid to be changed every couple of years
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Hydrogen cars are powered solely by electricity so not a hybrid in the sense that ICEs are (having both an engine and electric motors). There has to be a battery to store regenerated energy from braking but doubt they'll be designed to keep moving once H2 runs out as this would entail an unnecessarily heavy battery.
I just bought a used Bmw i3
I p/x my 3.0d msport X5
Why?
Money in a nutshell
An example today - Coventry to Bicester
I left my property with about 75 of electric range - I was t fully charged
The car has 90 miles range of unleaded too
Got to Bicester with 20 miles of disc range left
Into valet parking and plugged in for free
Back from a gentle trot around and a bite to eat and 75 miles again in electric
I need now to put the car on charge via a 13amp granny charger and it’ll cost me about £3 to take it up to 120miles range
The X5 would have spewed £35-45 of diesel
The I3 is no super lux vehicle - but has heated seats a great stereo and certainly doesn’t look or feel dated
Acceleration is faster than the m4
Drive it hard you’ll reduce your range
Drive it nice you’ll hit the markers for economy
I’d recommend one
Also..... unlike many online communities the EV one is friendly - so too much experiences at public charge points
Some manufacturers now have 300 mile electric range - what’s not to like
This car will pay for the cash top up I made against the px in two years with ease
Who knows.... I’m just over a week in - but I can see why people are jumping in. No need to spend a fortune on a Tesla - oh and you’re right about maintenance - you hardly e er touch the brakes.
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My point is that they are only safe por those inside; have more kin. energy and a larger stopping distance than lighter cars.
The rest in gvt/industry fog.
Heavier = less safe. No way around it. Newtonian law combined with the material properties of rubber.
To put insult upon injury the new regulations about drivers´licences have upped the weight limits.
The point: The same drivers driving heavier cars is agaín less safe.
The design and engineering teams often have significant crash test centres to simulate road traffic collisions from various impact points.
I do not doubt the physics you refer, but the OEMs are taking crash and accident extremely seriously and as a result have made enormous strides in vehicle safety for both internal and external impact, just take a look on YouTube for some examples.
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I can totally see it too but not the current heavy crop.
My MR2 hobby car p.e. could be made líghter as an energy regenerating electric. Range 80 kW and 300 km would do for me. Problem is that it would be loaded with all sorts of nonsense weighing 150 kg móre, dictating stronger e-power, more battery etc. ending up a 200-250 kg heavier lard.
Maybe I should convert a Renault R4 or better still my old DAF55!! Simple, light, eco. It will be aginst the rule no doubt as not generating more dish for the State/industry....
We are pretty much at that now. It’s called a taxi
Missing/ignoring the point by a mile:
1. It is the same for fossil fuel burners!!
2. All áfter the bang.
The point is ceterus paribus:
1. More weight/ less traction to prevent a bang.
2. A bigger bang at the same speed.
I certainly have not missed the point.
I shall step away from the thread.
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Don’t let cilla stop you from posting, he ruins nearly every thread he ‘contributes’ to.
Id like you to explain that one Cilla because I don’t make sense of it. If I grab a chair from around my table I can’t easily push it around my kitchen by applying force to it. If I were to get my wife to sit in the same chair then the friction would be greater and I’d have to apply more force to get it moving?
I may well have misunderstood your point however.
I'm nearly 2 years into i3 ownership and my experience has largely been positive. The only downside was an expensive repair to the wiring loom for the petrol engine.
EV adoption needs to go alongside renewable generation and storage. We have a massive wind farm 14km offshore, so i can see all the pieces in place for green transport.
Which I suspect will result in you also being unable to summon a driverless car via an app.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Driverless cars (and taxis) might be ok for getting home after and evening out or getting to/from the station but what about runs to the tip and stuff like that.
Maybe a (scruffy) driverless van?
One of the things often missed in the CO2 comparisons between electric and ICE vehicles is that with an electric vehicle it gets ‘greener’ as a countries electrical generation gets greener too, and it’s retrospective to all EVs on the road so you don’t have to wait for next gen engines etc.
It also takes a lot of electricity to make petrol and diesel, something which I never see factored in to the comparative calculations, only the consumption, despite the CO2 of battery production always being included.
Where you live and drive your car in the world makes a difference as well, an EV in Norway will always be greener than one in Germany with its brown coal fired power generation. The UK is somewhere between the two.
I drive an EV, but I wouldn’t consider myself an ‘evangelist’, one happens to work fine for my needs, but I accept they don’t work for everybody.
Not all EVs are SUVs and some are no heavier than their ICE counterparts. My e-Golf weighs the same as a Golf R for instance.
I just find them interesting technology, and they’re good to drive, but I still love some petrol cars as well.
I think Hydrogen has a future as well, but maybe not for cars.
?
i3 BMW, faster than the M4 what? Not an M4 BMW anyway.
It's just a matter of time...
I think the metric used is often something like 0-35/40 or something! I remember the salesman using that line on me when I purchased an i3 back in 2014.
Just about all EVs are quick off the line, even the boring ones like mine, and of course Tesla take it to a different level, but they’re exceptionally powerful.
The only drag race I’ve watched was the older 4.0 M3, and the i3 had a rolling jump start and stayed slightly ahead for maybe 1 or 2 seconds before being completely left at around 30mph onwards.
In any case, there is virtually no other measure where you’d call an i3 quick - the non-extender version does alright however between 50-70mph, and I enjoyed having one for a day (well a couple hours before range meant it was returned) to play in.
It's just a matter of time...
I have owned am M4CP and have driven an I3, the I3 is considerably slower, but like with all electric cars the instant torque makes it feel fast for a bit.
I was following a model S a few days ago on a country lane, we got to a straight as a slow car in front turned off. At the time we were both doing maybe 20 mph, he then shot off once clear - I reacted a little slow as I did not think he would and then followed. I can not say if he was at full acceleration but he did not pull much on me at all and being behind I had reaction lag. I was in a m240.
I went for a spin in a Tesla 3 yesterday and it significantly exceeded my expectations in terms of the performance, handling, ride and available technology.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Can you define "spin" for me?...I went for a spin in a Tesla 3 yesterday and it significantly exceeded my expectations in terms of the performance, handling, ride and available technology.
R
There are so many versions of the S, but even the old Model S 60 is no slouch at all.
A work colleague has a Model S P100D, it pulls sub 3 secs 0-60 as often as you like, in ‘gear’ acceleration is bonkers, as is the 155mph limited top speed. £100k car though! No Tesla is slow is the point, even the base model 3.
The M240 is a great car, my god son had a lovely one that was modified and quick, he’s only recently changed it for a BMW M3.
There are a lot of variants.
Hypothetically, if I wanted the absolute fastest one, is that the P100DL?
Is that the only one with the 2.5sec 0-60 time?
So clever my foot fell off.
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