Reply With QuoteThey even fake the Casio F91W, which is an £8 watch.
https://www.burningimage.net/genuine...ke-casio-f91w/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000GAWS..._.rjEFbXD4TV6S
Chris.
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Thought I'd draw attention to this because I've seen a few "Is it fake?" thread responses suggesting a given midfield item is too cheap for anyone to bother forging it.
Truth is everything and anything seems to be fair game for criminal scumbags, 'cos if big ticket doesn't cut it, shifting volume will -
10,500 cheap Casio fakes seized in Texas.
They even fake the Casio F91W, which is an £8 watch.
https://www.burningimage.net/genuine...ke-casio-f91w/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000GAWS..._.rjEFbXD4TV6S
Chris.
Sent from my Nokia 9 using Tapatalk
I worked with a lad from Nepal who said the chinese would come along and sell those by weight to the locals. Disposable time keeping.
I can see the logic, fake a $10 watch and sell hundred of thousands at low risk of comeback. Or fake a BLNR with all the engineering and assembly needed for super fakes, then sell a few hundreds with the inevitable comeback from someone. Return on initial investment its a no brainier.
I’’ve investigated faked items in the past and at this price point it was frequently production overrun not an imitation product.
The brand would request a production run from the manufacturer and they would produce more than was ordered and sell on the side. Would not have to be the full watch, an overrun on cases would do the job.
Interested to know if the insides are the same.
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Last edited by joe narvey; 4th October 2020 at 09:59.
Back in my anti counterfeiting days, I even came across fake toilet rolls. It just proved that cheap bums use fakes.
Might grab a fake un and have it as my to wear while visiting Selfridges London watch.Originally Posted by chris2982
They even fake the Casio F91W, which is an £8 watch.
https://www.burningimage.net/genuine...ke-casio-f91w/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000GAWS..._.rjEFbXD4TV6S
Chris.
Sent from my Nokia 9 using Tapatalk
Thing is we judge viability of fakes against western overheads and costs. In a country like China where labour is so plentiful at low costs, very little respect for intellectual property rights, and economies of scale anything - at any cost - is worth faking. I would say especially high end fake watches are particularly lucrative. If a Chinese watch assembler spend three days putting together and finishing a watch labour and materials are probably no greater than £15 or £20. If that watch then sells for £400 plus, as super clones can, that’s not a bad profit margin.
There really is very little that can be done unless the source is policed hard and copyright enforced. The problem is only likely to get worse too with 3D printing/ scanning etc.
I think you're correct, it's all well and good banging on about fighting fraud and fakes but isn't it simply a consequence of globalised capitalism and China's role and proven modus operandi. Plus the consumer is sold on the cheapest price being the be all, and end all... thus we are where we are. Add in low or zero economic growth for most folks in the developed world but a heightened sense of keeping up with the jones's due to the messaging, advertising and social meeja thus Mick's battle was, is unwinnable.
Yes the battle was / is unwinnable and I did throw the towel in. The main problem is everyone is against it until they see a bargain and then their morals go to the wall.
Child exploitation is terribly terribly wrong and nasty people do it, but it's ok for me to buy a fake pair of jeans because my fake jeans were honestly made and all the children were well paid. - That is the attitude that keeps fakes going and in all honesty no one really gives a damn.
In essence fake culture is down to how a person feels about themselves. If their need to brag/ peer pressure is greater than than their disposable income allows there will always be a market place for fakes. Additionally, some people have no qualms about feeding the replica market, and no understanding - or care - of what it supports. Wearing the brand logo is all that matters to them.
It’s all about how you feel about yourself, personally, when I couldn’t stretch to high end watches or cars, and other consumables I simply bought the best I could.
I think society should just encourage people to be the best they can within themselves, posh watches, flash cars, and jewellery do not make you a better person. There are/ have been some fine examples of this on this very forum.
This is actually an interesting discussion point. Whilst we are a long way off yet from the capabilities of such precision 3D printing and manufacture where do the OEM watchmakers stand? If someone around the world can produce a functionally and cosmetically identical item with 3D printing and manufacture how will they defend against counterfeiters? Already the materials cost of a high end watch is almost irrelevant compared to the R&D, manufacture and prestige of a brand.
I read that something like 40 percent of the worlds cotton now comes from China, that place with the Uigher work camps...same place that had the suicide nets in the Foxconn factory where they make the I phones... happens elsewhere as well, clearly it's not just 'fakes' by any measure. Globalisation makes exploitation and human rights abuses easy to hide and ignore as it's how much of the ROW feels materially so well off and good about ourselves, progress...we are where we are as the saying goes, tragically.
Interested, given your background, in how you feel about the Chinese "homage" watches - the 1:1, but with a different brand on the dial that we see a lot of these days?
My view is that they're fakes in all but name, made by the same people who make the fakes, and likely with some of the same immoral practices as the fakers, such as child exploitation.
But obviously that's speculation on my part.
You don't need to look very far afield. Boohoo were supplied form a sweatshop in Leicester. I didn't think globalisation in and of itself is the issue. Providing goods and services to western markets has helped raise the standards of living for millions of people in India, China and other developing countries. Brands have huge power and influence and people are attracted to that. The big brands also need to protect their reputation, so we as consumers can influence how they look after their workers and suppliers. The problem with fakes, is we have almost no visibility or control over how the goods are produced. As long as a brand remains aspirational or simply attractive there will be fakes. A cheap Seiko and an expensive Rolex will appeal to different buyers as will their equivalent fakes. But as long as there is demand (and a margin to be made) fake watches will be produced.
There's not really a whole lot of visibility or control over the big brands either and entire industries exist to control reputations, ameliorate damage, just saying. Consumers frequently display almost pavlovian need irrespective of where/how somethings made, see the poor souls queuing on cold pavements for the latest trainers, Iphone to be released OR outside JD sports during a pandemic.
But yes fakes are bad too, human nature is what it is.
I had no experience of watches but I did have experience of "homage" clutch and brake parts as well as well known bicycle brands where the working conditions were horrific. Closing them down was a 5 minute victory, one place closed and another opened up. I would say, however, that 95% of the problem was out and out fake.
It is impossible to stop manufacture as the factories are all but impossible to find, but if the customers stopped buying, the problem would soon go away. The problem is that everyone has morals until they want a bargain. The fakers constant excuse is that they are merely satisfying a demand which is, unfortunately, true.
An £8 fake watch, what is this world coming too. Interesting comment that a Chinese seller sells fake Casio’s by weight!
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Depends what you class as “a whole lot of visibility”?
Referring back to the Boohoo story I mentioned. Their shares have dropped 20% since The Times brought the sweatshop allegation. A number of large investors have dumped their stock. The market pressure alone will force the company to make changes. A manufacturer of fake watches doesn't have to bear that type of scrutiny.
I'm thinking more of developing countries. I could say a few quips about Leicester but I'll keep it serious for the thread.
The big brands, for their reputation, and for many (buy not all) their beliefs, values and mission have a huge amount of control over their supply chain, and part of that control is transparency.
For instance, let's just say I work in a factory in a developing country that produces products for five of the sectors biggest brands. Those brands are having third party auditors in the factories at any given time, and with little or no notice. Those audits last three to five days, and the 'green status' is very difficult to achieve. If you are scored at 'amber status' you will have certain sanctions put in place and have deadlines imposed in order to get back to green. If you are scored at 'red status' and depending on the reason(s) for the red, the brand has the contractual right to cease production with immediate effect.
Many brands now also use the Higg Index.
China was the guinea pig here, and went through a monumental learning curve, which all of the other developing countries are benefitting from.
Let's not forget, the reason brands moved out of China is because of rising costs (yeah). With brands demanding western mindsets and working practices in the developing countries, they imposed huge corporate social responsibilities, environmental measures, health & safety rules, demanded that all workers have insurance, demanded that workers don't work for more than 60 hours per week (72 at peak times), have three meals a day, have high standards of accommodation available to them, with electricity, airflow and hot running water.
The RSL (restricted substance list) is as thick as a phone book. All tier two and three suppliers also have to be proven compliant. The list goes on and on.
For the above reason the brands pushed suppliers to move outside of China, which they did, but those other developing countries had already learnt massively from China and the Labour laws which (rightly) protect the workers were implemented almost immediately.
Believe it or not, there are many many workers that go to the fake factories because these places don't bother at all with the above laws, and all they (the workers) want to do it earn money. Many of them are migrants and are only where the are because they need to send money back to their families.
The hourly rate is far less in the fake factories, but if they work double the hours then they'll earn more money.
Ps. I'm originally from Leicester.
Last edited by Jon Kenney; 8th October 2020 at 06:41.
In Cambodia there are only a handful of shops that sell legitimate branded watches. There are thousands that sell fakes. The average wage though is only $100+ dollars a month so selling branded goods is necessarily out of reach for most. Hun Sen was however pictured with a Richard Mille RM 57-03 Tourbillon Sapphire Dragon which is valued at about $1,000,000. Go figure.
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