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Thread: More Rolex Skulduggery at auction?

  1. #1
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    More Rolex Skulduggery at auction?

    Couple of "iffy" lots have showed up again based around Milsubs.

    There seems to be a trend of selling fake dials, cases at auction houses on the south coast around Portsmouth, Southampton and Poole, all feels like part of the ploy to trick people to think they are genuine ex service parts being as thats where most of the watches ended up.

    Dial and Merc handset, the print on that dial is shocking and did they even make a 3-6-9 military dial?

    EDIT; Just found a picture of a 3-6-9 Milsub and the print looks just as bad on the original so who knows??

    https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...0-ac4700af7ca5





    5512 military case

    https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...8-ac4700af7ca5






    5513 dial and bezel thrown in for good measure -

    https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...5-ac4700af7ca5



    Last edited by murkeywaters; 3rd October 2020 at 09:01.

  2. #2
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    No idea about authenticity, but they did make a 3-6-9 military dial and the font on the T looks correct at least

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    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Even more worrying if these parts are then put on an old beater and then placed back in auction hoping for a six figure sum.

  4. #4
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    No idea about authenticity, but they did make a 3-6-9 military dial and the font on the T looks correct at least
    Maybe they are correct then? problem is there has been several auctions in the area that have had fake vintage parts so its almost like the story of the boy who cried wolf!

    If correct that dial will be worth a fortune and should probably be at the likes of Bonhams to achieve its full potential.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Even more worrying if these parts are then put on an old beater and then placed back in auction hoping for a six figure sum.
    This is the one good reason to only buy from an AD or put the watch in straight away for an OEM service. Like it or not, the watch industry is riddled with fakes and even worse, tight fisted owners who get their high end watches serviced by an old Tom, Dick or Harry and pass it on as having a recent service.

    Only Rolex can supply genuine parts (for Rolex obviously) and we have to get into the mindset that like it or not, we have to get used to using Rolex or an accredited agent to service the watches that we own. If we don't, the problem will persist.

  6. #6
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to see what Haywood, Mike or Jedley think of that dial and case engraving.

  7. #7
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    It would be interesting to see what Haywood, Mike or Jedley think of that dial and case engraving.
    Thats what I was thinking, if correct I'm sure they might have a bid..

  8. #8
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post

    Only Rolex can supply genuine parts (for Rolex obviously) and we have to get into the mindset that like it or not, we have to get used to using Rolex or an accredited agent to service the watches that we own. If we don't, the problem will persist.
    I'm a convert Mick having had a 16600 serviced this year and now my 1675 is away at service, both by a Rolex accredited service centre using only genuine Rolex parts. Even my Omega 165.024 is with Simon Freese at present which is why I have had a bare wrist these last four weeks. An expensive business, but worth it. It does amaze me now how many 'decent' watches go through SC with no service history. Pass the parcel until someone is willing to stump up the cash.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I'm a convert Mick having had a 16600 serviced this year and now my 1675 is away at service, both by a Rolex accredited service centre using only genuine Rolex parts. Even my Omega 165.024 is with Simon Freese at present which is why I have had a bare wrist these last four weeks. An expensive business, but worth it. It does amaze me now how many 'decent' watches go through SC with no service history. Pass the parcel until someone is willing to stump up the cash.
    Precisely and the worse thing is that these people think of themselves as enthusiasts. The reality is that they are a complete PITA and a nuisance to everyone else.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Precisely and the worse thing is that these people think of themselves as enthusiasts. The reality is that they are a complete PITA and a nuisance to everyone else.
    Superb irony Mick.
    Almost as if it was meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I'm a convert Mick having had a 16600 serviced this year and now my 1675 is away at service, both by a Rolex accredited service centre using only genuine Rolex parts. Even my Omega 165.024 is with Simon Freese at present which is why I have had a bare wrist these last four weeks. An expensive business, but worth it. It does amaze me now how many 'decent' watches go through SC with no service history. Pass the parcel until someone is willing to stump up the cash.
    Luckily, quite a few of them have lack of service reflected in the price unlike chrono24.

  12. #12
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ollipekka View Post
    Luckily, quite a few of them have lack of service reflected in the price unlike chrono24.
    You would like to think a fresh service would be a strong plus point when you come to sell. I'll find out when both watches come back

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    You would like to think a fresh service would be a strong plus point when you come to sell. I'll find out when both watches come back
    I think a fresh service with a checkable documentary evidence from Rolex will make the watch more attractive from a private seller and is a guarantee of authenticity. Buying from someone who had the watch serviced by a non franchised repairer just means nothing and let's be honest, anything could be fitted inside it, so I for one would put no value on that.
    Last edited by Mick P; 3rd October 2020 at 13:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    I think a fresh service with a checkable documentary evidence from Rolex will make the watch more attractive from a private seller and is a guarantee of authenticity. Buying from someone who had the watch serviced by a non franchised repairer just means nothing and let's be honest, anything could be fitted inside it, so I for one would put no value on that.
    I'd better tell Simon Freese not to bother servicing the 2 vintage pieces of mine he has at the minute then.
    Waste of time obviously.
    Last edited by Hood; 3rd October 2020 at 13:51.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood View Post
    I'd better tell Simon Freeze not to bother servicing the 2 vintage pieces of mine he has at the minute then.
    Waste of time obviously.
    If he is accredited and guarantees to use genuine OEM parts, then fine, if he doesn't, then sorry, not really on is it.

  16. #16
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    I think a fresh service with a checkable documentary evidence from Rolex will make the watch more attractive from a private seller and is a guarantee of authenticity. Buying from someone who had the watch serviced by a non franchised repairer just means nothing and let's be honest, anything could be fitted inside it, so I for one would put no value on that.
    Mick, a Rolex service is great for a newish watch, but most people with a much older or rarer watch would not want Rolex destroying the value of their Watch. A trusted independent who is accredited by Rolex and will work with you to only carry out specific work is often the better option to the Rolex sausage machine of change everything and make it fit for 2020 standards.

    Jim mentioned Simon Freese. My Seamaster is with him as he is the go to guy for any rare or vintage Omegas. I would not trust my watch with the Omega service centre for the same reasons as above.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Mick, a Rolex service is great for a newish watch, but most people with a much older or rarer watch would not want Rolex destroying the value of their Watch. A trusted independent who is accredited by Rolex and will work with you to only carry out specific work is often the better option to the Rolex sausage machine of change everything and make it fit for 2020 standards.

    Jim mentioned Simon Freese. My Seamaster is with him as he is the go to guy for any rare or vintage Omegas. I would not trust my watch with the Omega service centre for the same reasons as above.
    I believe that both Rolex and Omega will now agree to leave valuable parts, such as dials and hands etc in the watch provided the customer puts it in writing. This will however, so I have been told, invalidate any warranty.

    I still feel that if a repairer cannot source and fit original parts then the result is a frankenwatch.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    If he is accredited and guarantees to use genuine OEM parts, then fine, if he doesn't, then sorry, not really on is it.
    I'm more than happy using well respected indy watchmakers who you can actually talk to about your watch.
    I'm not actually sure Rolex accredited places check your watch against the lost/stolen register.
    Also for certain vintage stuff I wouldn't send to Rolex as they wont do it without insisting on certain replacement parts (they insisted I would need to change the hands on my 1016) and thats before the cost for vintage which starts at around £1300.
    I would agree with you on sending the more modern stuff to Rolex for authenticity and the price difference between accredited indies and Rolex isn't enough to be worthwhile IMO.

  19. #19
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    Ok so if I sold you my 1980 16520 which you are looking for, where would you service it ?

    Even accredited ADs are required to send it in to Rolex as the parts are so rare.

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    I have never owned a vintage watch, so have no experience. I am intrigued by some of the terms freely used. What is a ‘trusted independent’ ? Trusted by who? And. What is a ‘Rolex accredited agent.’ ....do they carry the full authority of Rolex or what? Do they have full access to genuine parts from decades ago?
    I feel sorry for Rolex because some people think the job is to renovate old watches to help owners/dealers make more money.
    I don’t think Rolex see that as their business. They repair their watches to near ‘as new’ standard. Which the vast majority of customers will probably want.
    But then I’m not a vintage guy.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Ok so if I sold you my 1980 16520 which you are looking for, where would you service it ?

    Even accredited ADs are required to send it in to Rolex as the parts are so rare.
    Please post an image of a 16520 from 1980. Subscribed.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Ok so if I sold you my 1980 16520 which you are looking for, where would you service it ?

    Even accredited ADs are required to send it in to Rolex as the parts are so rare.
    Probably weigh up the provenance the watch already had and if I was satisfied with that then either an indie or Rolex.
    No right or wrong here and I would probably change depending on value and age of the watch.

  23. #23
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    A Rolex accredited agent is a Rolex dealer who has a workshop and repairers who both meet Rolex standards and in return they are allowed to buy genuine Rolex parts. You average repairer has to buy something similar so the watch comes back as a frankenwatch.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    I have never owned a vintage watch, so have no experience. I am intrigued by some of the terms freely used. What is a ‘trusted independent’ ? Trusted by who? And. What is a ‘Rolex accredited agent.’ ....do they carry the full authority of Rolex or what? Do they have full access to genuine parts from decades ago?
    y.
    "trusted independent" to me means someone who people on this forum have dealt with and had good experiences with(accredited or not)
    I don't think you will get a much better heads up on this than on a watch enthusiasts forum.
    Off the top of my head people that have been recommended on here would be Duncan at Genesis,Simon Freese,Bill Rice,Rocco at Watchworks,Stephen Hale and whatever others I've missed.

  25. #25
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    A Rolex accredited agent is a Rolex dealer who has a workshop and repairers who both meet Rolex standards and in return they are allowed to buy genuine Rolex parts. You average repairer has to buy something similar so the watch comes back as a frankenwatch.
    You do seem to have blinkers on Mick, anything but Rolex doesn't cut the mustard with you.

    There are independent accredited repairers with full access to Rolex parts. Mine is with these guys:

    https://www.prestigetimeservices.co....ex-accredited/

    "Rolex Accredited means that our watchmaker has a full parts and materials account with Rolex UK, so we have access to all the spare parts and materials that’s need to be replaced when a Rolex comes in for service and repair"
    Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 3rd October 2020 at 14:17.

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    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Please post an image of a 16520 from 1980. Subscribed.
    Who do you think you are, coming around here making out that you know more about a subject than the forum expert on everything?
    My old clock used to tell the time and subdivide diurnity; but now it's lost both hands and chime and only tells eternity. PH

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    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    Who do you think you are, coming around here making out that you know more about a subject than the forum expert on everything?
    To be fair I spotted that. The watch didn't come out until 1988. I'm guessing Mick meant 1990

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    To be fair I spotted that. The watch didn't come out until 1988. I'm guessing Mick meant 1990
    Easy mistake when you are typing with a G&T in one hand.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Please post an image of a 16520 from 1980. Subscribed.
    Greetings Haywood

    Sorry for the delayed response, I have just returned from a light lunch on the beach.

    I can't send an image because I am in Spain and this PC has no pics of the watch in it.

    I see your point regarding date and yes I got the 1980 bit wrong.

    It is a P series 16520 which dates it to the year 2000. This is, so I believe the last year of production and it has solid end links and a luminova dial, thus making it quite rare.

    The point that I was making, or more accurately trying to make, is that I could never sell a watch to someone who would slap it into some local guy just to save a few quid.

    Sticking a non original part into this sort of watch is akin to a form of rape. I just cringe at the thought of a 16520 Daytona being defiled with goodness knows what and even worse, someone else being lumbered with it.

    Possibly I am being over protective but I genuinely believe that if you buy a decent watch you have a moral obligation to look after it to the best of your ability.

    Thanks for picking up the error, it was my mistake being too clumsy.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    You do seem to have blinkers on Mick, anything but Rolex doesn't cut the mustard with you.

    There are independent accredited repairers with full access to Rolex parts. Mine is with these guys:

    https://www.prestigetimeservices.co....ex-accredited/

    "Rolex Accredited means that our watchmaker has a full parts and materials account with Rolex UK, so we have access to all the spare parts and materials that’s need to be replaced when a Rolex comes in for service and repair"
    Ken

    I don't understand your point, we are saying the same thing, an accredited agent has access to OEM spares.

  31. #31
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Greetings Haywood

    Sorry for the delayed response, I have just returned from a light lunch on the beach.

    I can't send an image because I am in Spain and this PC has no pics of the watch in it.

    I see your point regarding date and yes I got the 1980 bit wrong.

    It is a P series 16520 which dates it to the year 2000. This is, so I believe the last year of production and it has solid end links and a luminova dial, thus making it quite rare.

    The point that I was making, or more accurately trying to make, is that I could never sell a watch to someone who would slap it into some local guy just to save a few quid.

    Sticking a non original part into this sort of watch is akin to a form of rape. I just cringe at the thought of a 16520 Daytona being defiled with goodness knows what and even worse, someone else being lumbered with it.

    Possibly I am being over protective but I genuinely believe that if you buy a decent watch you have a moral obligation to look after it to the best of your ability.

    Thanks for picking up the error, it was my mistake being too clumsy.

    Ha ha ha. Mick the Rolex guardian. Heard it all now.
    “The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.”

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    I believe that both Rolex and Omega will now agree to leave valuable parts, such as dials and hands etc in the watch provided the customer puts it in writing. This will however, so I have been told, invalidate any warranty.

    I still feel that if a repairer cannot source and fit original parts then the result is a frankenwatch.
    I had my '57 Explorer OCC serviced by Rolex Singapore and they wanted to change just about everything. They did inform me though beforehand and in the end I only changed the hands. It was a while back however.

  33. #33
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Something tells me these military parts "could" be the real deal, all the usual suspects haven't came out the woodwork to give their expert views on how bad they are and the 3-6-9 dial is currently up to £3600..

  34. #34
    Yep, all the Rolex stuff was good!

    Burford milsub dial, 5512 milsub mid-case, 5517 case back, pukka gear!

    Strong prices achieved, much to the auctioneer's bemusement!

    MW

  35. #35
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Wood View Post
    Yep, all the Rolex stuff was good!

    Burford milsub dial, 5512 milsub mid-case, 5517 case back, pukka gear!

    Strong prices achieved, much to the auctioneer's bemusement!

    MW
    Thanks Mike, almost seems to good to be true items like this popping up, it still says latest bid £3600 on my Saleroom for the 3-6-9, I take it went for a lot more than this?

  36. #36
    3-6-9 dial sold for £8,800 plus 29% commission...

  37. #37
    Thats the issue with a lot of people who have not seen or handled the pieces with these rare dials etc.

    Burford 3 6 9 looked correct

    Knew it was correct when I seen it and said so to a pal on here .

    Like woody has said it's all correct stuff.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Even more worrying if these parts are then put on an old beater and then placed back in auction hoping for a six figure sum.
    Not really as they all fit within a certain serial range

    So any so called "expert " will know their onions

    Dealers who buy and sell these know exactly what to look for

  39. #39
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Wood View Post
    3-6-9 dial sold for £8,800 plus 29% commission...
    Expensive but thought it would make more, the 5512 case fetched £8800 too, would this dial match that case?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    Expensive but thought it would make more, the 5512 case fetched £8800 too, would this dial match that case?
    It could indeed. Military issue 5512s fit into two small number ranges. My own is fitted with a Burford dial, as would have been most of these and the contemporary A/6538s in service at the time.

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