Reply With QuoteI thought you should use pipe inserts for plastic pipes and push fit, not ferrules. As https://www.toolstation.com/jg-speed...-insert/p68773
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Hi All,
Wonder if someone on here can give me a bit of advice, please.
- Moved into a new build in October 2019, all fine
- mid December while hanging up some Xmas decorations, stupidly managed to push a nail into the 10mm radiator feed pipe in our kitchen diner. Leads to comedy style water spraying around the kitchen
- cut out a small area of plasterboard so I can see the damage
- frantic trip to B&Q where I bought a 10mm plastic push fit connector, a decent plastic pipe cutter and the correct ferrules to suit the pipe
- cut the pipe cleanly where I’d punctured it. Nice and square ends with no burring. Pushed in the ferrules to each side and connected up again
- all’s well for a few days until boiler lost pressure. You guessed it, the pipe is leaking at the connector
- much swearing later I’ve taken out the connector and replaced it, leak stopped and I repaired the hole
- another couple of weeks and again suddenly boiler loses pressure and leak is back
- I decide maybe I need some more slack in the pipe so buy a load of new 10mm pipe and two new pipe connectors plus 4 new deluxe version ferrules
- I cut a few more inches of the pipe out (again nice and square with the pipe cutter) add the ferrules and splice in some new pipe with the new connectors. Gives me plenty of room to ensure that all the pipe ends are fully pushed into the connectors and the collars on the connectors raised properly. Leak gone
- Repaired the plasterboard hole (for about the third time now)
That brings me up to date and this week. The leak has been cured for months, tested thoroughly with having the heating on and I’m a happy bunny....until I discover a wet patch.
The heating has been on a few times over the the past few weeks. But again I’m getting a leak from the connector - I’ll add a pic. Seems that the connectors work for a while, hold pressure well (and it’s not over pressure as the boiler pressure has been in the green every time) but then just decides to leak again.
I hate these plastic connectors. They’re shite. Prefer old fashioned copper which either leaks or it doesn’t. I must be doing something wrong. Anyone got any other ideas before I spend money on a plumber? I’m getting sick of repairing holes, draining the heating system and faffing about with plastic pipes.
You can see from the pic the brown staining where the leaking has started on the top connector.
Thanks in advance for any ideas
I thought you should use pipe inserts for plastic pipes and push fit, not ferrules. As https://www.toolstation.com/jg-speed...-insert/p68773
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My terminology fail there. Yep that link is what I’ve been using, only 10mm not the 15 shown.Originally Posted by tero
Do the inserts match the pipe - same manufacturer?
I bought some with sort of a double gasket on them
Have you tightened both ‘nuts’ on the plastic pipe?
Yep same manufacturer and bought at same time. Also both nuts or the collars are tightened down all the way on both sides of each junction. All the collars have popped up properly when the nuts are tightened.
Make sure the pipe ends are clean with no burrs that’s can damage the seal.
Why not go with some 10mm compression joints - job done
That’s a good idea. I’ve never gone from plastic to copper with a fitting before though.
Is it a case of using a plastic pipe insert and metal olive on the plastic side of the fitting?
And is the outside diameter of 10mm plastic the same as the OD of metal pipe? (For the olive). I can’t remember if 10/15/22mm is the OD or ID
Can't it still leak at the plastic end of the fitting, problem is just halved?
I’m guessing that with it being a compression fitting I can nip it up much much tighter than the push fit that I’m having to do now with the plastic connector.
To tighten these plastic connectors it can only ever be finger tight on the collar you twist. Presumably it relies on the pipe being perfectly squared ends perfectly round diameter, no burrs and no dirt in the collar?
Yeah I thought I had done. That was initially why I bought the expensive plastic pipe tool. It was the only way I could get a square and clean cut of the end of the pipe. Without the pipe cutter I couldn’t get the pipe to seal under pressure for even a few seconds.
Yes that’s correct - just get some 10mm compressions - belt and braces add a little PTFE
What’s the worse that can happen 😂
Thanks Lewie,
I’ll give it a go tomorrow when I’m back. My wall is already damp and I’m well practised now in the art of radiator draining so it should be a breeze.
On the bright side at least the push fit joint failed before we opened the new paint this morning to decorate. Every cloud...
FWIW, I’ve never had issues with 15mm speedfit connectors (hoping not to tempt fate as I’m in the middle of doing the bathroom) bug have had problems with 22mm. I’ve never used 10mm though.
I’ve always found that the end doesn’t actually need to be that square and I generally cut the pipe with a hand saw. It is important to remove dwarf/burrs and to lubricate the pipe end (soapy water is ok) to ensure that the rubber seal doesn’t get damaged or cone unseated. It’s that seal which does the sealing.
The inserts are only necessary when using compression fittings on the plastic pipe. Otherwise they’re just an obstruction in an already small bore pipe. Also, the lip on the end may not be allowing the pipe end to be fully inserted beyond the rubber seal.
Last edited by Dave+63; 10th October 2020 at 16:07.
Noooooo you need the inserts - only omit them when using plastic fitments on copper pipe.
I never knew that, everyday is a school day.
Last kitchen I put in I also had issues getting the 22mm push fit to seal properly but 15mm was fine.
OT I remember my dad teaching me to plumb with the old solder joints. What you gained in pressure reliability you lost in terms of scorching your kitchen units with flames.
Make sure the pipe between the two connectors is the correct length and pushing right against the internal shoulders of both connectors.
(My Bold) Sorry Dave but that's not the case. An insert should be used every time with plastic pipe whether with a push fitting or compression. You are right thought in that the inserts do reduce the bore especially with 10mm. I'm not saying that the joint won't seal initially but you're tempting fate if you go without the inserts.
Also to the OP: If you do switch to a compression fitting then you should use a plain insert like this https://www.toolstation.com/jg-speed...CABEgJHSvD_BwE rather than a superseal one.
Not sure why you're having the issues with the speedfit. It's pretty reliable TBF. With heating pipework there will be a fair bit of expansion and contraction as the heating cycles so this may be the root if the pipes aren't well clipped.
Cheers Jeff. I’ve got the correct inserts ordered. John Guests plumbing site did a great guide of when to use the ones with o rings and when not.
Compression fittings also on their way.
And oddly enough, of the two pipes to my radiator, feed and return, the one I holed isn’t clipped at all. In fact it was tight as hell, almost like the installing plumber was running out of pipe. That can’t have been good in terms of expansion and contraction.
For a start, ignore anyone who says that inserts aren't required when using a plastic connector (either Twist & Lock or Standard type); they are wrong. Here is the JG Speedfit installation guide:
https://www.johnguest.com/speedfit/w...-Guide_v11.pdf
Both that guide & the HEP2O one are quite clear about the need for inserts & not using them is a major cause of joint failure. Since you say you are using them though there must be another issue. Does the pipe have any lateral damage, ie along the length that might be causing a leak past the O ring? If not I'd try either a 10mm compression fitting, making sure you use inserts & copper olives, or try a pair of HEP2O joins instead of the Speedfit ones.
Yes, it's not ideal to have plastic pipework super tight.
Looking at the photos it looks like the fitting/s may now be tightly sandwiched by the plasterboard and the wall. It may be worth chiselling out a little around the fitting so it's not trapped when the plasterboard is replaced.
What make is the 10mm pipe.
Always use inserts with plastic pipe.
And as someone else has said, use plain inserts for compression fittings.
I’ve had issues where pipes have been installed with the JG fittings and they’ve been to tight against the joists / boards / walls and have leaked after some small movement on the collars.
I’d make sure there is enough length going into each fitting, the pipework isn’t strained... and use Hep20 fittings, the JG are well liked but I’ve encountered more leaks with them than Hep, others may find different?
There shouldn’t be any need to go compression but obviously, you can.
Always apply a smear of Fernox LS-X.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-ls...EaArxOEALw_wcB
Speedfit tell you not to put anything on the fittings bar a bit of spit.
I wouldn’t, it has its (limited) uses but not for this
Never on Speedifit, ever.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Apologies for the confusion. Thought the op was going to try compression fitting.
Yeah definitely going to be fitting compression fittings this afternoon.
I’ve also got some copper 10mm pipe to use as the splice so I’m going: plastic pipe > compression fitting > copper pipe > compression fitting > plastic pipe
Reason I’m using the copper pipe: minimise plastic pipe joints (I’ve come to hate them after all this) and the copper pipe I already have laying around from another job. Although if it’s a bad idea I still have tons of 10mm plastic pipe.
What’s the consensus on using fernox, yay or nay?
To answer another question posed above: the pipe I can see is unbranded. At least from the stretch I can see in the plasterboard window. I know there’s two types of pipe with one much stiffer than the other. This is very stiff pipe, and a bugger to work with.
3 repairs to do, time wasted, all the fittings purchased...................how much was the plumber going to charge?!
I suppose it depends if he was as ‘good’ as the one who originally installed the pipe work.
Sometimes it also about a sense of achievement- doing so for yourself- the job in hands not rocket science
We use Hep20 cutters (scissor type), have demounting tools in case they need to come off, I’d try Hep20 fittings, making sure there’s no strain on the pipe and there is enough pipe fully engaging into the fitting.
I wouldn’t use LSX on the fittings.
Nothing essentially wrong with the plastic to copper to plastic approach, just feels unnecessary and potentially adding more / different types of joints to fail, I’m not personally a fan of copper compression on plastic, if you want belt and braces on that joint I would use a warp of PTFE rather than LSX
All well and good saying that it’s not rocket science but it still needs to be done properly to work.
If it still leaks then perhaps time to get someone in?
Hope it works out.
No plumber bothered to respond to my requests for a quote. Their loss
That’s my thoughts also now. Plus less tradesmen costs = more watch money
I’ll take a look at those fittings if these don’t work out. Thanks, they look good. If I’d not already bought the compression fittings I’d have gone for these.We use Hep20 cutters (scissor type), have demounting tools in case they need to come off, I’d try Hep20 fittings, making sure there’s no strain on the pipe and there is enough pipe fully engaging into the fitting.
I wouldn’t use LSX on the fittings.
Nothing essentially wrong with the plastic to copper to plastic approach, just feels unnecessary and potentially adding more / different types of joints to fail, I’m not personally a fan of copper compression on plastic, if you want belt and braces on that joint I would use a warp of PTFE rather than LSX
All well and good saying that it’s not rocket science but it still needs to be done properly to work.
If it still leaks then perhaps time to get someone in?
Hope it works out.
All done. 10 minute job once I’d drained the rads again.
Boiler sat at 2 bar, all rads bled and heating cranked right up. No leaks. I’ll keep testing for the next couple of days before I sort the plasterboard - just in case.
Thanks for everyone’s help and advice. Much appreciated. I can see why a plumber wouldn’t have been interested in quoting as it was so simple in the end, just needed the right bits.
Well done 👍🏻
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