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Thread: Fakes and France ...

  1. #1
    Master
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    Fakes and France ...


  2. #2
    Journeyman
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    At first I didnít believe it but got confirmation from a friend in France that this law is in fact, real!


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  3. #3
    Master mycroft's Avatar
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    Brilliant!

    Simon

  4. #4
    Craftsman
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    How could they prove you hadn't been conned yourself? Seems unfair to fine/ convict a potential victim

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  5. #5
    Does this mean eBay.fr isnít awash with fakes like in UK?

  6. #6
    Master TKH's Avatar
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    LVMH will be pleased...

    Potentially a very Big fine for wearing a fake Lacoste polo bought as a gift

    I guess they have decided to come at it from the other end...”if you can’t stop the producer (China mainly) ...stop the buyer (demand)...

    I wonder how many fake LV bags there are in Paris v the real thing ? Or Subs in Essex ?

    Is it telling its in English assume its located at Airport etc ?
    Last edited by TKH; 15th September 2020 at 11:40.

  7. #7
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Canít be true, surely members of the EU are Ďruled by Brusselsí and canít have their own laws. ( sorry, political, please ignore)
    Cheers..
    Jase

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob s View Post
    How could they prove you hadn't been conned yourself? Seems unfair to fine/ convict a potential victim

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    Maybe for you to prove you had been conned?

  9. #9
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    Extraordinary.

  10. #10
    Craftsman TheGent's Avatar
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    That is quite something. Difficult to enforce though surely? ďExcuse me sir, can you come this way so we can examine your watch...?Ē


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  11. #11
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    I am confused. At what point would the reality of the watch on your wrist be questioned? If you get stopped for speeding, would the officer also ask you to prove that your Cartier is not a fake?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Maybe for you to prove you had been conned?
    I can understand it if you're caught buying a £200 rolex or cartier for example but I'd be a little pissed if I'd payed full wack and then get done because it's fake.
    I guess the paperwork for the sale might be evidence that you didn't know.

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  13. #13
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Fakes and France ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob s View Post
    How could they prove you hadn't been conned yourself? Seems unfair to fine/ convict a potential victim

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    Maybe your transaction on Paypal showing payment to ďwemakefakerolexĒ

    Seriously though this campaign by France is simply to try to make a good number of fake purchasers think twice before doing so. It would be a nightmare to try to police but if it stops some buyers in their tracks then all well and good.
    Last edited by RustyBin5; 15th September 2020 at 11:58.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob s View Post
    How could they prove you hadn't been conned yourself? Seems unfair to fine/ convict a potential victim

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    That is a fair point! I am sure there are finer details that we donít know of. For example, maybe you donít get fined if the item was bought from an established dealer or with box and papers???


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  15. #15
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    Fakes and France ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob s View Post
    I can understand it if you're caught buying a £200 rolex or cartier for example but I'd be a little pissed if I'd payed full wack and then get done because it's fake.
    I guess the paperwork for the sale might be evidence that you didn't know.

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    I think that is what that law is targeting mostly. Potentially as a deterrent to people buying the £200 fake Rolexes in street markets..... how it is enforced, I have no clue! Seems like a logistical nightmare!


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    Last edited by Ctam; 15th September 2020 at 12:01.

  16. #16
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    Iím not sure what the law is in the UK but you can buy all kinds of counterfeit goods (including watches) on Gumtree. Listings get taken down but re-emerge from the same sellers.

  17. #17
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob s View Post
    How could they prove you hadn't been conned yourself? Seems unfair to fine/ convict a potential victim

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    For "buying or carrying" read 'trading or going supplied'? By that I mean they are looking for anyone caught in the act of making a transaction or having a stock of fakes.

  18. #18
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    This is old news, the law has existed for at least 10 years. It's a testament to the lobbying power of French luxury groups and their importance to the French economy.

    As for policing it, I'd say it presents the same problems as British Customs face dealing with people arriving with a couple of bottles of booze or a few cartons of cheap fags buried under the dirty shreddies in their suitcases as they waltz through the green channel or, indeed, people who buy a genuine watch abroad (Switzerland, for example) and wear it home, not paying the VAT on arrival in the UK.

  19. #19
    I can't find any stats as to how many prosecutions have been made under this law. Would be interesting to find out.

  20. #20
    Journeyman M1011's Avatar
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    They should do this everywhere. Stamp out the fakes.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Maybe your transaction on Paypal showing payment to ďwemakefakerolexĒ

    Seriously though this campaign by France is simply to try to make a good number of fake purchasers think twice before doing so. It would be a nightmare to try to police but if it stops some buyers in their tracks then all well and good.
    I imagine this must be the case, most laws are designed to influence the (fairly) law abiding majority and allow serous cases to be prosecuted. It wouldn't be practical to enforce / police anything but the most serious laws to the complete extent of the letter of the law.

    R

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  22. #22
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Do people really pay £200 for a fake Rolex in a market?

    M

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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    This is old news, the law has existed for at least 10 years.
    Yep. The Italians have been doing similar since at least 2006:


  24. #24
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    There are 2 aspects to this.
    The first one is awareness. Think of it as in the same spirit as the US questionnaire where you are ask if you belong to a terrorist organisation, or if you plan to kill POTUS; no one in their right mind will answer yes, but if they do anything that can be construed as an attempt they can get done at least for perjury. In this case, make sure that people understand that it is illegal and repression is enforced. You don't usually find these posters at your AD's, but it's likely you'll see them as you fly to Turkey or SE Asia: "Un homme averti en vaut 2!"

    The other gives customs (who already have greater investigative powers than the police*) a known motive to intercept people, even if it is the only thing they find initially.

    As to enforcement, I would say that the majority (if anyone) will be arrested at the airport coming back from the destinations mentioned earlier.






    * as a side note, French border force can stop you anywhere, not just at the border, and conduct a full search of your vehicle (and yourself) without having to show motive, although most of the times they will act on denunciation, usually by the people who sold you the fake goods via their country's own border force.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  25. #25
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    <snip>
    Think of it as in the same spirit as the US questionnaire where you are ask if you belong to a terrorist organisation, or if you plan to kill POTUS; no one in their right mind will answer yes, but if they do anything that can be construed as an attempt they can get done at least for perjury.
    On a lighter note, in the old days you had to fill in the US visa waiver on the 'plane.

    When it came to those pointed questions Alan Coren the late writer/satirist answered, " sole purpose of visit" and he was apparently waved through like everyone else!
    Cheers,
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  26. #26
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    On a lighter note, in the old days you had to fill in the US visa waiver on the 'plane.

    When it came to those pointed questions Alan Coren the late writer/satirist answered, " sole purpose of visit" and he was apparently waved through like everyone else!
    A very dangerous game to play with US customs, who are not known for their sense of humour. Especially at JFK...
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  27. #27
    Craftsman TheGent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    A very dangerous game to play with US customs, who are not known for their sense of humour. Especially at JFK...
    +1 to that! A friend of mine with a very popular UK name (First and Surname) arrived at JFK and they kept him detained for 2 hours whilst the FBI checked he wasnít someone else with the same name. They donít mess around!


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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo73 View Post
    Yep. The Italians have been doing similar since at least 2006:

    Wow! I didnít know this was that common!

    I like that fact that the campaigns uses brands which are iconic to their country!


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  29. #29
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    Iím sure there was a relatively famous sportsman whoís wife had a fake bag got fined in France about ten years ago.

  30. #30
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Is there a reason they are in English?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    Iím not sure what the law is in the UK but you can buy all kinds of counterfeit goods (including watches) on Gumtree. Listings get taken down but re-emerge from the same sellers.
    My understanding is that its illegal to sell a fake (probably more due to misuse of trademarks / abuse of copyright etc rather than a specific law), but not illegal to own.

    I understand that Switzerland has even tougher laws against the possession of fakes, but they would, wouldn't they!

  32. #32
    Master Maysie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Is there a reason they are in English?
    So we can read it without the need to shout....?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Is there a reason they are in English?
    Apart from English being amongst the most widely understood language in the world, one suspects that us Brits are good customers for fakes - not actually illegal, and lots of people with no money and expensive tastes!

  34. #34
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    Apart from English being amongst the most widely understood language in the world, one suspects that us Brits are good customers for fakes - not actually illegal, and lots of people with no money and expensive tastes!
    Ye just wondered as the ads seem to in France and Italy above - but as someone mentioned maybe itís in airports.

  35. #35
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    Do Humbert & Ellis Ltd have an office in France or Italy?

    Asking for a friend.

  36. #36
    Journeyman M1011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Is there a reason they are in English?
    I assume others exist in French/Italian, but people are sharing the images of signs they can read. It is the international language.

  37. #37
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Is there a reason they are in English?


  38. #38
    I got caught out earlier this year with a fake Cartier Santos WSSA0013 bought off eBay. Watch looked spot on. Brushed finishing was exemplary. Didnít think the fakers could replicate the SmartLink adjustment system as they do... could barely see the link Ďbuttonsí to eject the pins, the machining tolerances were that good and the QuickSwitch mechanism worked perfectly. My suspicions were only aroused through less than stellar timekeeping, but that made me look much more closely. Date wheel font not quite right, box packaging very slightly iffy, but it took me a full 4 months to find the courage to take the back off and prove it once and for all. Movement was a dressed up 9015.

    Luckily I paid via PayPal and made use of their 180 day refund policy. They were really excellent at getting me all of my +£4K back, so canít complain on that count, but was less than impressed that they seemed less bothered that some guy had sold me a dud. I wanted to get the police involved, but they just wanted me to return the watch to the seller and I didnít want to complicate things and risk not getting my money back somehow. Feel bad that he may try and dupe someone else with it.

    Be vigilant people!

    Gary

  39. #39
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    I feel better somehow

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker View Post
    do they jail someone for wearing a genuine Hublot?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk2k View Post
    do they jail someone for wearing a genuine Hublot?


    I have opened up to Hublot a bit....


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  42. #42
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    Canít be true, surely members of the EU are Ďruled by Brusselsí and canít have their own laws. ( sorry, political, please ignore)
    So funny.
    Cuidich 'n Righ

  43. #43
    Journeyman M1011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galewis View Post
    I got caught out earlier this year with a fake Cartier Santos WSSA0013 bought off eBay. Watch looked spot on. Brushed finishing was exemplary. Didnít think the fakers could replicate the SmartLink adjustment system as they do... could barely see the link Ďbuttonsí to eject the pins, the machining tolerances were that good and the QuickSwitch mechanism worked perfectly. My suspicions were only aroused through less than stellar timekeeping, but that made me look much more closely. Date wheel font not quite right, box packaging very slightly iffy, but it took me a full 4 months to find the courage to take the back off and prove it once and for all. Movement was a dressed up 9015.

    Luckily I paid via PayPal and made use of their 180 day refund policy. They were really excellent at getting me all of my +£4K back, so canít complain on that count, but was less than impressed that they seemed less bothered that some guy had sold me a dud. I wanted to get the police involved, but they just wanted me to return the watch to the seller and I didnít want to complicate things and risk not getting my money back somehow. Feel bad that he may try and dupe someone else with it.

    Be vigilant people!

    Gary
    Fakes are just to damn realistic these days. I never buy expensive watches outside of the AD for this reason, as I'm not confident enough in my own ability to spot a so called 'super' fake. I keep the 2nd hand stuff to sub £1k watches.

    People often say 'buy the seller', but that only works if the seller knows what they have is a dud. I can't help but wonder how many people have fakes in their watch box with no clue, and how many of them may therefore unknowingly sell on a fake without ever even realising!

  44. #44
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    sounds like one of those daft things where they try and scare people into complying with a law that they have no chance of enforcing properly. Im reminded of those 'you wouldn't steal a car so dont pirate a film' adverts.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakuan View Post
    sounds like one of those daft things where they try and scare people into complying with a law that they have no chance of enforcing properly. Im reminded of those 'you wouldn't steal a car so dont pirate a film' adverts.
    ..or don't download a music CD to mp3 files for your phone!

  46. #46
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakuan View Post
    sounds like one of those daft things where they try and scare people into complying with a law that they have no chance of enforcing properly. Im reminded of those 'you wouldn't steal a car so dont pirate a film' adverts.
    Agree with this. Unenforceable but for the sake of printing a few posters, they might scare a few people off from buying counterfeit goods.

    Counterfeit goods hold no interest to me mainly because I'd rather spend my money on a genuine brand at any price point rather than a counterfeit of dubious quality. I've seen colleagues bring back £100 fakes from holidays and always thought it was dumb when £100 could buy you a good Seiko. The people who spend hundreds on those "high quality" near identical fakes are insane.

    The same goes for movies...I've never downloaded any movies from the internet, partly on moral grounds. Yet when I suggested to a friend that I am happy to buy DVDs from CEX or Music Magpie, he suggested that none of that money goes to the film industry or people who made the film so morally how can it be any different.

  47. #47
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    ..or don't download a music CD to mp3 files for your phone!
    I've just googled this and never knew there was a u-turn in the law and that it was illegal. Thats a real scam by the music and film industry to squeeze every last penny out of consumers. Buy a CD or DVD, then years later have to pay full price again if you want it digitally! The cost of the older digital movies are a total rip off...buy the DVD for a couple of quid or the download for seven or eight quid!

    Again, utterly unenforceable for music...you only have to look at Youtube Music to see that a lot of copyrighted music is uploaded by users for anyone to listen to.

  48. #48
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakuan View Post
    sounds like one of those daft things where they try and scare people into complying with a law that they have no chance of enforcing properly. Im reminded of those 'you wouldn't steal a car so dont pirate a film' adverts.
    They have no chance of enforcing it systematically. But they do seize quite a lot of fakes on passengers at airports, and the fines can be severe. As I said earlier it works like the drug market: Seller of illegal fakes (drugs) is tolerated because he brings money in the economy, but is kept under a tight leash by local border force. The deal is, when he sells to a tourist he needs to tell local BF.
    In the case of drugs, they arrest tourist offender on departure.; in the case of fakes they notify their counterparts in the tourist's homeland.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  49. #49
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    Surely the French would just wave a white flag and hand over their Submariner, it's just their way....

  50. #50
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    The current drink and driving laws were introduced in 1967 as a necessary safety measure. During the 1970s, a lot of men (never women) boasted of being convicted and in the main they received a lot of sympathy and the general opinion was that these new laws were draconian and decent citizens were being penalised for losing their license and/or job for a minor infringement of the law.

    Fast forward up until today and the attitude is now, quite rightly, different. Drunken driving is now a major taboo and offenders can expect to be disrespected by family, friends and work colleagues for committing a thoroughly disgusting crime. The public attitude has swung 180 degrees and that is how it should be.

    The same needs to apply to counterfeiting of any type. The makers employ vulnerable people, often children, working under inhumane conditions. We would not treat a dog like these people are treated. The profits are undeclared and often fund crime and money laundering.

    The people who buy these counterfeits, be it a watch or a pair of jeans, are keeping these industries going and we need to change our attitude to it and fast. Anyone who buys a counterfeit are supporting crime and exploitation and they deserve to be treated the same as drunken drivers.

    There is no justifiable reason for anyone to buy a fake and it is only a lack of international cooperation and public attitude that keeps the industry going.

    If we don't buy, the industry will die, so the ball is in our court.

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