Reply With QuoteHI, tks for your comments/concern. i am based in Paris so i use the french one lol, Free fiber optic internet.Originally Posted by markrlondon
I've been disappointed before but seems I manged to get one today so very happy right now. I don't know how many shop openings there have been now but must be getting close to all 500 being sold out.
I was on my mobile using chrome
Last edited by Rob s; 30th January 2022 at 16:30.
HI, tks for your comments/concern. i am based in Paris so i use the french one lol, Free fiber optic internet.
That workflow / approach failed for me 5 or so times before and today again. I am baffled that some are able to consistently score TF pieces (and go on to sell them with obscene mark-ups) and many of us consistently fail.
I said it yesterday, I rather wait a few years, knowing that I will receive a piece, than go through this frustrating experience over and over again (which bears no fruit)).
Ah, interesting. I would not be surprised if the ISP was using transparent proxying/cacheing.
If you can't relocate(!) you might get better results by using a VPN to a UK or US exit point.
As a general rule, I always suggest trying to avoid using free services for anything mission criticial.
Last edited by markrlondon; 30th January 2022 at 16:43.
As before, this isn't the place for tech support but I'm curious now: What country are you in and ISP are you on?
Thank you - having tried Chrome (my usual browser) multiple times and then Firefox last time around, I thought it was worth giving Edge a go!
Hi Mark
Free (https://www.free.fr
) is the name of a main french Internet provider, it does not mean it is a free service ... lol
To be honest, I wouldn't have thought that browser choice should make a difference but one can never be sure. As I recall I only mentioned Edge because someone asked what browser I used.
Whatever: You got an order through and that's what counts. :-)
Ah, when you wrote "i use the french one lol, Free fiber optic internet" I took you to be using "Free" as an adjective rather than a name. :-)
As it happens, the same advice applies to very big providers as to free providers in my opinion: Stay away. They may well faff around with your packets in ways that become noticeable in critical situations.
Using a VPN to the UK or US will/should make it harder for them to cache anything. There'll be a delay due to the VPN but a decent, paid VPN should introduce minimal latency compared to content or connections being cached.
But I offer no guarantees.
Good for you, truly happy for you. But also realize that my odds of ever landing one are shrinking ……
USA, Safari on Mac
Tks, Mark, have a nice sunday... i have, as someone said here, enough timepieces from Timefactors to play with for the moment while waiting for the next shop opening :)
Stay healthly.
Well, being in the USA should either help or be neutral in terms of speed of access.
When I asked about ISP I meant your service provider, although to be honest it doesn't really matter. In my very humble opinion, the general principle of staying away from the largest providers is usually sound.
Last edited by markrlondon; 30th January 2022 at 17:20.
:-)
Sorry, forgot to add ISP ….. it’s a regional (?) provider, Entouch. They just got bought by Astound Broadband. That should really make no difference, but maybe it does 🤔
It could make a difference. Different ISPs have different infrastructure and peering and/or backhaul connections to Shopify.
This was after the previous shop opening:
I've little doubt that the figures will have been similar for today i.e. demand far exceeding availability, but it's good to see that some forum members were able to make a purchase.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
The availability is probably not an issue. As I imagine enough are manufactured and so enough are available for the amount that want one. It’s just the process getting them into peoples hands that seems a little off. Saying that I’ve successfully ordered.
I thought that too. Anything remotely in demand just isn't worth bothering with. I recently ordered an older model then after a week with no shipping notification I realised it could be up to four weeks and couldn't be bothered to wait. Yes, I am all about instant gratification. I bought an alternative elsewhere that arrived next day.
My brother fancied an Everest but when I told him about the shop being open for one minute a month and all that goes along with ordering and potential four weeks for delivery even if you're lucky enough to purchase his response was "why TF would anyone be arsed with that?"
Complete farce.
Stop trying then it’s not as if Eddie’s forcing you to buy. Plenty of watches readily for sale.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
That’s the type of comment usually thrown at disappointed Rolex buyers. For years I’m guessing Eddie’s main source of buyers has come from from the TZ community (I have no way of knowing, but a reasonable guess) and now those people are being frozen out by this latest sales technique that gives us a maximum of two mins a month. It is understandable that people feel let down especially when a fair number of those watches sold end up on the secondary market within days with huge mark ups. I was offered a Jubilee for £800 from one seller.
Instead of developing new models, maybe a thread on how Eddie can come up with a system that allows TZ folk to actually buy his watches, rather than telling them to go to Argos or whatever.
That just isn't true.
Do you think the store has some kind of filter that magically detects TZ-UK members and freezes them out? In reality, TZ-UK members have exactly the same chance of successfully buying as non-TZ-UK members. How could there be any difference?
Well, to be pedantic it's often four mins every two weeks but, however often it is and however limited it is, it is the same for everyone, regardless of whether they are on TZ-UK or not.
Yes, it is disappointing. But any situation where demand exceeds supply will result in disappointment to someone.
As I said to you before in other words, something in the region of 200 watches are sold every opening and there definitely aren't 200 watches every two weeks/a month being resold for profit on eBay or elsewhere. In other words, it does seem that the vast majority of watches go to people who want to keep them.
As I said in another thread, I think that first come first served is a vastly better solution to demand exceeding supply than non-existent waiting lists, 'buying history', and actual interviews!
This particular discussion has been done. You are dissatisfied with the outcome but it has nevertheless been done. Eddie has explained why he cannot and is not willing to expend resources on expanding delivery capacity.
Furthermore, let me point out that the current system does "allow TZ folk to actually buy his watches". I know because I did. I know because roughly 200 of them seem to be sold on every opening day and there are people here on TZ-UK posting about their new watches.
Yes, it is utterly frustrating if you miss out. But the system is working. The fact that you've missed out doesn't mean the system isn't working as a whole.
Last edited by markrlondon; 31st January 2022 at 10:35.
Mark has already answered this better than I ever could.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Hi Mark - there's two ways of looking at a system working; the technical solution and the customer experience.
You're correct in terms of the technical solution working to spec. Site goes live, sales can be made and site closes when defined order volume is reached.
However the customer experience isn't working for what must be 95% of potential customers. Eddie has his reasons for managing his business this way and he's explained that to us many times. But look at this from the perspective of a business analyst.
Does the potential customer have the access to make a purchase from TF when they want it? No.
When the ability to purchase becomes available, does the process provide the purchaser with the maximum opportunity to purchase? No.
Does the current process maximise the potential market for selling TF goods? No.
Does TF maximise the potential for customers to consider it their go-to seller? No.
Does the current process benefit the seller by maximising demand? Yes.
Does the current process benefit the seller by minimising opening periods and therefore customer interaction? Yes.
Does the current shipping period of up to four weeks increase the potential for cancelled orders and lost sales? Yes.
Honestly, either personally or professionally this is the worst business model I've ever experienced from the perspective of the customer.
As I see it there's three people benefitting here; 1st is Eddie, 2nd is profiteers and 3rd (last) are genuine customers.
As I've found many times in my line of work; the system works as designed but that doesn't make it a good system.
Last edited by TaketheCannoli; 31st January 2022 at 11:29.
In the last 18 months I've managed to buy 4 watches from the TF website. Assuming it arrives ok that includes a Jubilee from this last opening. Overall I've failed more times than I succeeded but I did succeed.
My attempts to get a Rolex sub at list have been far less successful for a lot longer.
Last edited by Rob s; 31st January 2022 at 11:05.
The problem is that the system consistently benefits the same customers, repeatedly, as witnessed by the multiple watch re-sellers on Ebay.
However, this may not be the main source of frustration.
The main source is probably that the converse is also true.
It disadvantages the same buyers every single time.
Those for whom the banking security system, internet connection, browser settings or whatever are not totally optimised, are always disadvantaged by the current sales method, because they simply cannot get the job done within the opening window.
So some people are able to get what they want in any sales window. Some can get what they want in a few windows. And many cannot get anything in any window. Despite repeated attempts.
And that seems unfair to them.
I agree. You'll note that I did address the customer experience.
As I said on the subject of customer experience:
I have made other comments that effectively addressed customer experience but those will do for now.In reality, TZ-UK members have exactly the same chance of successfully buying as non-TZ-UK members. How could there be any difference?
[...]
I think that first come first served is a vastly better solution to demand exceeding supply than non-existent waiting lists, 'buying history', and actual interviews!
Given that demand clearly does outstrip supply (both supply within currently available unit of time and probably total supply too) then it strikes me that customer experience is as good as can practicably get. But hey, let's rehash it all below.
Are you Eddie's business analyst? What does an imaginary business analyst's opinion matter if he or she has not been employed by Eddie? All you're doing is effectively stating your subjective preferences. More of which below.
All the same, I'll address the points you've made.
Is "no" meant to be a bad answer in your opinion?
You see, "no" is the only possible answer where demand exceeds supply. You can fiddle with production or logistics methodologies but, ultimately, if demand exceeds supply (which it does and necessarily will at present) then "no" must always be the answer to this question.
Also, what it seems you are really asking is "does the potential customer have access to guarantee a purchase?" which is a slightly different question to the one you actually asked.
I would say "yes". Why? Because the question as you posed it is self-limiting: When the ability to purchase is there then it follows that people can, and do, do so.
In any case, it is useless to pose a question like this with an implicit assumption that "no" is a bad answer unless you are willing and able to offer a solution. So what is your solution? How will you expand buying opportunities for something that is in very limited production and availability (and where demand is high in part because it is in very limited production and availability)? I re-visit this key question of solutions rather than problems below.
The answer to this is obviously "yes". Eddie is currently selling all he can cope with. That is a literally fully maximised potential within Eddie's explicitly stated business decisions.
If you want to see more sold then what you are really saying is that you disagree with Eddie's business decisions. That's a valid view of course but (unless you are buying Time Factors from Eddie) it's also meaningless in practice. You have chosen to model your comments here as if they are coming from a business analyst but a business analyst judges a business according to the parameters set by his or her employer. You are the 'employer' of this imaginary business analyst, not the owner of the business in question. You are simply saying what you would like to see to increase your chances of getting a watch.
Again, with current parameters chosen by the business owner, the answer must be "yes". Time Factors is undoubtedly the "go-to seller" for Time Factors watches. Notably Time Factors seems to sell many, many more of them than the resellers do!
Ok.
It's not clear to me how you arrive at a "yes" for this or what significance you draw from it. One must remember that "customer interaction" is a wholly different thing to "opening periods" for sales.
<chortle> Theoretically maybe but in practice do you seriously, honestly, really think that's a significant issue? I don't.
Has Eddie actually identified cancellations as an issue? I haven't noticed him do so.
As I say, it seems to work fine from all angles. There is no fundamental issue that is preventing people from getting the watch they desire, other than that overall demand exceeds overall supply. Which in turn means that, no matter how you try and change things, people are always going to be disappointed. There is no model that will eliminate disappointment.
I'll say once more: The current first come first served sales method strikes me as an ideal method for where demand necessarily exceeds supply (and always will, no matter what changes have been suggested so far). First come first served is better to my mind than the pretentious rubbish of mostly fake lists, buying history, interviews, raffles, random choice, or other similar absurdity.
But genuine customers benefit too. We can tell as they successfully buy watches. We know that only a small proportion of the watches are immediately resold. We know that TZ-UK members are successful in buying watches because some of them say so.
Let me also point out that you have made the consultant's classic mistake: You have identified problems (well, what you subjectively perceive to be problems since you are acting as a self-employed analyst in this scenario and are comparing your answers to your own preferred parameters rather than the business owner's parameters) but not identified practical, workable, feasible solutions. :-)
In short, you don't like the customer experience because it doesn't match how you would like to run Time Factors and, I presume, because you have been unsuccessful in obtaining a watch. But as many people as possible are obtaining a watch. That strikes me as working pretty well, in other words a net positive customer experience as far as is possible within practicably available supply, notwithstanding the detailed questions and answers above.
So: What are your solutions that are compatible with the actual proprietor's business operational, practical, and risk preferences and requirements?
Last edited by markrlondon; 31st January 2022 at 12:23.
Understandably so but, once again, it is not useful merely to identify what seems to be a problem. One must offer a practicable, viable method of solving it.
Despite all the discussion, I do not see any such better solution for Time Factors than the one currently in place: First come first served.
Sometimes first come come first served is the worst system there is, except all the others. ;-)
In my own case, I did fail to successfully order at first due to technical issues slowing me down but then I fixed them. I didn't expect everything to change to suit me.
Had I been unsuccessful in fixing them I would have been frustrated but I still would not have expected everything to change to suit me.
Last edited by markrlondon; 31st January 2022 at 12:24.
I haven’t read through the whole thread but just to get it out there, I’ve successfully purchased from the store on more than one occasion. This being since Eddie has upgraded the website. Shipping times were also fantastic. Product was received within 5 days. There are many other companies that have similar topics going on. It’s nothing new.
Previously Eddie had posted data that showed 746 people putting items into the basket and 207 orders taken.
For me that works out at a 27.75% success rate in terms of purchasing the watch of your choice - which is some way out from your assertion that the current system isn’t working for 95% of potential customers.
I agree that it is really frustrating when you miss out - but given the alternative I think the offer of product quality so far above the price point is probably a price worth paying.
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CBA to read through Mark's response as he's clearly a fanboy whose opinion won't be turned despite the numerous unhappy non-customers here. The system is flawed. If it's such a great approach, why doesn't anyone else use it?
Anyway, we all have choices when making purchases. It'll work for some and not for others but one thing's for sure, it's not the preferred solution for anyone. Of that there can be no argument.
Different models have always worked for different businesses - one size definitely doesn’t always fit all.
If the current model is working for Eddie why change it and risk alienating a loyal following and a product range he is able to sell out within a few minutes a month.
Obviously prices on the secondary market bear out the view that the watches are worth more than the prices charged by Eddie so he must be doing something right having been a pioneer of the online watch business and now celebrating his 25th anniversary with the fantastic Jubilee model.
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Oh dear!
(a) You are (understandably) upset at not being able to get the Time Factors watch(es) you want and you have yourself written quite extensively on the subject, and yet you think I am the fanboy for disagreeing with you and explaining why. One might reasonably think that only a fanboy could be as upset as you seem to be at not getting the Time Factors watch(es) you want. ;-)
Also, for the avoidance of doubt, is being a Time Factors fanboy a bad thing, given where we are having this discussion and the subject of the discussion?
(b) As I pointed out, unhappy wouldbe customers is an unfortunate inevitability where demand exceeds supply. It happens no matter what the approach. Have you noticed the Rolex situation? Or Ming, from what I've heard?
(c) I do not agree with everything Eddie does but this is the approach I'd use myself as, overall, it seems to me to be least bad of those approaches so far suggested or used. That's not a matter of fanboyism or loyalty to Eddie; it's just my view of the practicality of the situation. Overall it does seem to me to work.
Well, as you would see if you had read my comments, it in fact is my preferred solution under the circumstances that apply in reality and in practice. That's not to say that it's ideal. But I don't know of anything better within what is practicable at present.
Last edited by markrlondon; 31st January 2022 at 15:33.
Have some of you taken it upon yourselves to explain to Rolex what they're doing wrong as well?
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
What I find ironic about Dave’s frustration is that he had an excellent example of the now discontinued PRS 25 40mm, an example freshly serviced and refinished by me. He’d owned one before, sold it, and regretted it. However, instead of keeping the one I’d sold him, which was absolutely mint, he sold it on again!
Whatever he buys he probably won’t keep, so a 4 week delay shouldn’t matter.
Building a collection of watches you like and keeping them is a better strategy, it works! I’ve spent over 2 years searching for a good example of a watch I’ve wanted, but it was worth the wait.
Wow, some people clearly have more time on their hands than I have. Don’t even have time to read it all 來
We can argue business models and other things till we’re blue in the face, without reaching consensus. Saying “it works” depends on how you define “it”.
Personally, I am disappointed that I am unable to add the Silver Jubilee to my collection. The “attempting to purchase” experience sucks and is frustrating. But life is bigger than that. I will just add this one to my list of “ones that got away” and move forward.
I could show you a whole forum that is full of such.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
That 'alienation' is already in progress.
This (and other threads) are full of people who feel let down/left out by the tiny window in which to buy a watch or accessories. There's another group who feel that doing an applied PhD in Computer Science to manage the system to try to order within that window isn't for them. Then you've people who comply with all that, but find they're let down by their banks' insistence on secondary verification & are 'timed out' of a purchase.
I've accepted that I'll never buy a new Timefactors watch under the current system. I'll have to buy pre-owned, but then there's a concern with the TF warranty to address.
I'm very happy for Eddie to have a successful, growing business: 25 years is wonderful. It does seem to me (as a long-term member & infrequent customer who has owned about 20 TF pieces, some bought used on SC) that brand-loyalists/core customers who helped the Timefactors line to where it is now have a right to feel rather pushed out under the present system.
______
Jim.
Flippers and profiteers have one thing in common - they don't actually want the watches they are buying.
Maybe Eddie should remove the stickers and keep the warranty cards before dispatch.
Not that you were aiming this at me, I'm sure, but I nevertheless feel motivated to point out that I have no qualifications whatsoever related to computer science or anything else related to computers. No degree, no PhD, not even any industry qualifications. :-)
Perhaps I should have written 'There's another group who feel that doing a pseudo-applied PhD in Computer Science to manage the system to try to order within that window isn't for them.'?
Buying a watch from TF should be a leisurely pursuit: pleasureful, in fact.
Changing browsers, being on deck at a specific time, repeated refreshings, pre-loading information, hoping that a 'buy' button appears, cutting & pasting bank details & still having to hope that you get in under the 200 purchases wire fails to fulfil either 'leisurely' or 'pleasureful' for me. Some may like the challenge it presents: I don't.
______
Jim.
Paul that literally has nothing to do with this thread.
Please feel free - not to
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I found it quite pleasurable. :-)
Some people may wish to try a different browser but it's not something I'd recommend[1], there is no need to refresh multiple times, pre-loading information is normal practice in modern browsers, it's a near-ubiquitous convenience feature, and there's no need to cut and paste bank details of all things.
There's no need for a "pseudo-applied PhD in Computer Science" or anything so complex. Really. Don't exaggerate. :-)
I understand.
It's frustrating. Life goes on.
Footnote:-
1: Someone asked me which browser I used and I told them but I didn't recommend actually changing browser.
Footnote: this is really funny.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
I’m fairly IT illiterate, don’t have a PhD and use BT broadband in a low line speed rural area - but still picked up the two watches (Black dial Navigator and a Jubilee) I wanted from the website, on two separate occasions. Must just be lucky!
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Of course it has - you (and others) keep pi$$ing and moaning about stuff when some have had, worn and sold to revisit and then be frustrated.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
That sums it up in one sentence. And that is exactly what it is not.
What to do when a hobby becomes a source of frustration?
No need to answer, it’s a rhetorical question.
As you say "must just be lucky", I have had the total opposite experience, I'd like to think I am pretty IT savvy also have a pretty decent setup at home and even with 500mb fibre broadband, wired CAT5e cable connection from a 1GB PC network card....I have still been unsuccessful, last Sunday being my eight time so it must just boil down to perfect timing and a whole lot of luck.
Just wondering what pieces you’ve managed to buy as i thought I’d seen you post watches you managed to pick up in the past?
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