Tour de France starts today

[MrSmith]

I think that was the comparison he was making, yes. Earlier on - or perhaps a previous stage - there was footage of a rider having a disk brake wheel change. It involved a special tool to undo the thru axle and it took rather longer.

A battery operated cordless drill with a hex key, hardly a special tool.
Those without team support just use their multi tool that all cyclists should carry.

As for the disk/rim argument? They both have their place.
I run both, on a winter bike they are a godsend, I once got a piece of rag caught round a brake block and wore through the shoulder of the rim on a set of DT-Swiss wheels before I noticed what had happened, a rim ruined in one ride.

[cbh]

Even if changing a wheel with disc takes a few seconds later, that is more than compensated for by the vastly superior modulation. To illustrate the sillyness of most arguments, that is ESPECIALLY!!! in the rain. Oh and ditto the weight argument; the bikes are éasily under the minumum weight if needed, discs or no discs.

Maybe when you are I are riding around in the sun, but the TdF is won/lost by seconds, why do you think that all the GC teams ride with rim brakes, no one ever won the TdF because they can brake better!

[100thmonkey]

The disc / rim debate will never end. If you have either then your bike will stop.

One may do it differently to the other and one may come with a payload but once you have brought into it then thats your decision and opinion formed.

Same as 10 speed, 11 speed, 12 speed. Gearing left you longing at 7/8 and even sometimes 9 but once 10 came along it gave all that you will ever need. Same as direct mount and center mount rim brakes they also give all you will need the rest is just depreciating advances for minimal gain and keeps the industry interesting and able to generate cash.

The pro teams will be analysing and discussing at length the risk/reward of every element from mechanical to electric and rim to disk to get the best result in any given stage.

As a keen milage cyclist I want to ride, stop, and spend as little time in a bike shop as possible.

Roll on todays stage

[Kingstepper]

A question out of ignorance and probably daft but if rims are better can't they be made much bigger?

[thieuster]

The disc / rim debate will never end. If you have either then your bike will stop.

One may do it differently to the other and one may come with a payload but once you have brought into it then thats your decision and opinion formed.

Same as 10 speed, 11 speed, 12 speed. Gearing left you longing at 7/8 and even sometimes 9 but once 10 came along it gave all that you will ever need. Same as direct mount and center mount rim brakes they also give all you will need the rest is just depreciating advances for minimal gain and keeps the industry interesting and able to generate cash.

The pro teams will be analysing and discussing at length the risk/reward of every element from mechanical to electric and rim to disk to get the best result in any given stage.

As a keen milage cyclist I want to ride, stop, and spend as little time in a bike shop as possible.

Roll on todays stage

^^^ This ^^^

Cycling is, like F1 and sailing (to name a few), a sport where cutting-edge technology is tested, tested and tested and then implemented. Not tried.

Added: big name pro cyclists often have their own preference, leading to bespoke solutions. A few years ago, I was in Maastricht, the weekend before the Amstel Gold Race. All big-name teams had their crew in hotels on the Eastbank of the River Meuse, in a neighborhood called 'Wyck'. There's this large terrace in front of a local spot called Coffee Lovers. Sky and Quick Step stopped for a coffee and cake. They'd parked the bikes right in front of me and my wife, so I had the chance to take a close look: comparing details. In short? The teams do not provide identical bikes when it comes to the technical hardware! Not even the frame. Some have a different shape; I remember that it crossed my mind that some bikes were from a different brand, but with the team's bike sponsor's colours and decals!

(I compare this with Olympic sailing. Those Lasers dinghies used during the Olympic regattas all look the same, but they aren't. All hardware mounted to the hull is bespoke! Built-to-order for the competitor, all within the class rules just to try to get as fast as possible. A one-man-band British parts designer and producer is world leader for those Laser parts).

[Huertecilla]

Maybe when you are I are riding around in the sun, but the TdF is won/lost by seconds, why do you think that all the GC teams ride with rim brakes, no one ever won the TdF because they can brake better!

By jove are you clueless. There is bags of time to be won braking. Races to be lost by inferior brakes.

By and large pro cyclist et al are luddites.
See tire sizes and tubeless- Oh. lots of time lost by flats. Tubeless reduces the need to change wheels disc on not, in the fist place, saving even more potential time.

Thanks for illustrating the ´arguments´.

[Martylaa]

I'm hoping Sagan re-discovers his form for the Green Jersey, thought he would walk it this year???

[MrSmith]

I'm hoping Sagan re-discovers his form for the Green Jersey, thought he would walk it this year???

how so? he hasn’t won a stage for over a year and not exactly been firing on all cylinders. there’s a dozen sprinters who all could take green, i don’t see him standing head and shoulders above them right now.
Bennet and Ewan look to be on form.

[mrushton]

Those who know say he isnt in form. Statistic the other day tho' was out of the 156 days he has spent at the TdF in his career so far, he has worn the Green Jersey 124 days - 82% of his time there.

[mrushton]

In Wednesday’s coverage an Ineos rider punctured , and the comment from David Millar was “look how fast they can do a rear wheel swap with cantilevered brakes” . I then noticed the 2020 Dogmas are canti’s.

I have disks on my gravel and mtb and cantis on my road bike. I don’t find either Faster or slower to change. Maybe they are using through axles on some of the disk bikes, that would slow things down compared to a quick release.

Dogmas use dual pivot rim brakes, cantilevers are something different. Anyone using rim rim brakes at the TdF is using dual pivots unless campagnolo which may use single pivot at the back

[MrSmith]

Those who know say he isnt in form. Statistic the other day tho' was out of the 156 days he has spent at the TdF in his career so far, he has worn the Green Jersey 124 days - 82% of his time there.

but right now on todays stage he has a whole team focussed on getting him a win today, something the other teams with sprinters are not able to commit to 100% thing is he may be delivered to the line today but if Bennet, Kristoff or Ewan are on his wheel then it’s not guaranteed.

[magirus]

The disc / rim debate will never end. If you have either then your bike will stop.

One may do it differently to the other and one may come with a payload but once you have brought into it then thats your decision and opinion formed.

Same as 10 speed, 11 speed, 12 speed. Gearing left you longing at 7/8 and even sometimes 9 but once 10 came along it gave all that you will ever need. Same as direct mount and center mount rim brakes they also give all you will need the rest is just depreciating advances for minimal gain and keeps the industry interesting and able to generate cash.

The pro teams will be analysing and discussing at length the risk/reward of every element from mechanical to electric and rim to disk to get the best result in any given stage.

As a keen milage cyclist I want to ride, stop, and spend as little time in a bike shop as possible.

Roll on todays stage

That's cycling in a nutshell. I've been building and riding bikes since I was 14yrs old. I'm now 63 and there's never been a substitute for getting the miles in.

[100thmonkey]

Dogmas use dual pivot rim brakes, cantilevers are something different. Anyone using rim rim brakes at the TdF is using dual pivots unless campagnolo which may use single pivot at the back

Direct mount are for me the sweet spot. Additional stopping power without hassle. Moving forward I would expect to see direct mount and disc being the 50/50 split of the bike market once this initial hype subsides.

[bigputts]

Good stage today after a couple of pretty sedate ones. Seems like Sagan has really lost his mojo though, didn’t seem to even get involved in that sprint. How often does Landa end up in the wrong place at the wrong time as well.


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[thieuster]

Waaiers! Or in English: echelons. Perhaps 'waaiersi is an impossible word to say when you're not Dutch.

Specialty from the Low Lands (Netherlands and Flanders): those groups with cyclists halfway-hiding for the wind behind the back of the guy in front to overcome the crosswind. We call it 'waaiers' (= echelons). And when you're in the wrong part of the echelon, it's impossible to get to the front.

Here. every schoolkid from the rural country, heading on his or her bike to school is trained by his /her brothers and sisters to take a place in the 'waaier'/echelon when there's crosswind. It's schoolkids' 101 here in the Netherlands and Flanders. I learned it, my kids did. Every time I see kids on their bikes heading for school, against the wind and rain, I see echelons

Sporza, the Belgian TV, mentioned the fact that a lot of pro cyclists come over to the north (especially Flanders) to learn from the amateur teams there how it is to ride a bike in an echelon.

Lotto Soudal's video:

[Saint-Just]

Bordure in French; The attack (by locking out and forcing the rest of the group into the wind) is known as a "coup de bordure".

[thieuster]

Bordure in French; The attack (by locking out and forcing the rest of the group into the wind) is known as a "coup de bordure".

Great name in French! I didn't know that. I my mind, the French bordure is something like 'limit' or 'border'.

M

[Montello]

Direct mount are for me the sweet spot. Additional stopping power without hassle. Moving forward I would expect to see direct mount and disc being the 50/50 split of the bike market once this initial hype subsides.

I don’t understand why you think disks are high maintenance. I have been on disks for 4 years now and have never had a problem, I’d say they are less hassle than cables. Same goes for Di2. Electronic/hydraulic set up if the lowest maintenance bike set up I have ever had.

The low maintenance combined with improved stopping power and modulation makes them a no brainier. Pros use rims for the ease of wheel change. I’m not a pro so that isn’t a factor for me.

[100thmonkey]

I don’t understand why you think disks are high maintenance. I have been on disks for 4 years now and have never had a problem, I’d say they are less hassle than cables. Same goes for Di2. Electronic/hydraulic set up if the lowest maintenance bike set up I have ever had.

The low maintenance combined with improved stopping power and modulation makes them a no brainier. Pros use rims for the ease of wheel change. I’m not a pro so that isn’t a factor for me.

I dont think they are high, just given that when swopping groupsets its alot easier to just undo a bolt rather than removing hoses and rebleeding if internal. I have Di2 and again not high maintenance just different maintenance in that if it stops working im back at a bike shop but still like it on bikes as much as I like mechanical.

I have disk on mtbs and have had on 2 road bikes. All fine. Apart from the odd squeel occasionally that usually stops. Never wanted more from either and only ever wanted less hassle from both of them

Your disks are not better they are the same but different. If youre happy with them thats all that matters.

[Montello]

I’d agree that building a bike with Di2 and hydraulics is more hassle than building a traditional mechanical. There is also a risk that something could stop working that isn’t simple to fix. I kept my old mechanical bike when I switched over to disks and electronics as a back up but it has just gathered dust. Fingers crossed it stays that way.

I see the use of rim brakes in the pro peloton that same way as tubular tyres. They have specific benefits in a pro environment...

[Montello]

(I compare this with Olympic sailing. Those Lasers dinghies used during the Olympic regattas all look the same, but they aren't. All hardware mounted to the hull is bespoke! Built-to-order for the competitor, all within the class rules just to try to get as fast as possible. A one-man-band British parts designer and producer is world leader for those Laser parts).

That is not actually true is it ... the Lasers pretty much all use Harken hardware or Allen, it’s all available off the shelf and compared to bike components it’s cheap. Everyone has their own preferences on ropes and tillers but that is minor.

All major regattas (Olympics and Worlds) equipment is supplied by the organising authority so every competitor has identical kit. The kit is allocated by a random draw.

If you know your Lasers you will like the photo below of me and my riding buddies. Can you name the two former Laser World champions pictured? And a bonus point for the former Performance Director.

[deepdivedaz]

Conner Swift is a friend of mines son so super interested but defo miss the drama of Froomy G and Cav.
Only thing the French do well imo.

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[cbh]

By jove are you clueless. There is bags of time to be won braking. Races to be lost by inferior brakes.

By and large pro cyclist et al are luddites.
See tire sizes and tubeless- Oh. lots of time lost by flats. Tubeless reduces the need to change wheels disc on not, in the fist place, saving even more potential time.

Thanks for illustrating the ´arguments´.

Seriously you're the clueless one, name me one winner of the TdF on discs, oh that's right there hasn't been one, serious GC contenders won't ride discs.

[Bondurant]

That's not true, it's just chance there has not been a winner on discs.

He's utterly wrong about bags of time being available to be saved by braking though, I think he's conflating motor racing benefits with cycling and assuming it's the same.

What he doesn't perhaps understand is how little time is spent braking in a cycle race.

[Bondurant]

A battery operated cordless drill with a hex key, hardly a special tool.
Those without team support just use their multi tool that all cyclists should carry.

As for the disk/rim argument? They both have their place.
I run both, on a winter bike they are a godsend, I once got a piece of rag caught round a brake block and wore through the shoulder of the rim on a set of DT-Swiss wheels before I noticed what had happened, a rim ruined in one ride.

That is a special tool, sorry. QR is just a hand operated lever. And a thru axle unquestionably takes longer to change. It may or may not be significant in a race of course, but the above is a fact.

[Bondurant]

how so? he hasn’t won a stage for over a year and not exactly been firing on all cylinders. there’s a dozen sprinters who all could take green, i don’t see him standing head and shoulders above them right now.
Bennet and Ewan look to be on form.

Pure sprinters very rarely take green. That's why Sagan wins year after year. The winner has to be able to get over hills, take the intermediates, finish stages. Sagan is a very rounded rider compared to Caleb, for instance. I doubt if he will make it to Paris.

[higham5]

That's not true, it's just chance there has not been a winner on discs.

He's utterly wrong about bags of time being available to be saved by braking though, I think he's conflating motor racing benefits with cycling and assuming it's the same.

What he doesn't perhaps understand is how little time is spent braking in a cycle race.

One of the riders descended today ( Sat) at 95 km/ hr ( 59 mph) clearly he doesnt use his brakes as much as I do!!

[Bondurant]

A question out of ignorance and probably daft but if rims are better can't they be made much bigger?

I didn't see this had been answered but how do you mean 'bigger'? Wider?

[Kingstepper]

I didn't see this had been answered but how do you mean 'bigger'? Wider?

So that they make contact around more of the circumference of the wheel. Put another way, their largest dimension is longer!

[Bondurant]

That's an interesting question actually...I have no idea! Presumably some old standard I guess...?

[higham5]

I think I may have an answer. Wheels are subject to inertia, so light wheels allow faster acceleration, change of direction etc. BUT they need to be strong. So this is why rims are Complex cross sections. If the braking surface was increased the weight and size of the wheel would go up.

Then again I maybe completely wrong

As an aside on mtbs the downhill bikes have increased the diameter of the discs from the early 160 mm to current 200 plus. However the braking surface is still the same “ width” as its just the spider that has got bigger. However the overall Braking surface Is increased due to Pi X D . This allows calipers to increased from single piston upto 4 pistons .

[Kingstepper]

I think I may have an answer. Wheels are subject to inertia, so light wheels allow faster acceleration, change of direction etc. BUT they need to be strong. So this is why rims are Complex cross sections. If the braking surface was increased the weight and size of the wheel would go up.

Then again I maybe completely wrong

As an aside on mtbs the downhill bikes have increased the diameter of the discs from the early 160 mm to current 200 plus. However the braking surface is still the same “ width” as its just the spider that has got bigger. However the overall Braking surface Is increased due to Pi X D . This allows calipers to increased from single piston upto 4 pistons .

The wheel would not change, just more pad in contact at any time.

[higham5]

The wheel would not change, just more pad in contact at any time.

Apologies I mis read that. Big pads , about twice the size of normal pads were used on mtb’s in the 90’s . The only stopped as mtbs then went to hydraulic calipers and latterly discs.

[Kingstepper]

Apologies I mis read that. Big pads , about twice the size of normal pads were used on mtb’s in the 90’s . The only stopped as mtbs then went to hydraulic calipers and latterly discs.

Interesting, thanks!

[cbh]

That's not true, it's just chance there has not been a winner on discs.

Not one of the top 3 in GC in 2017,18,19 TdF's have run discs, (nor the Giro, haven't checked La Vuelta) and I'll bet that not one of the top 3 this year will either.

I have no problem with discs, for you and I fine, but in competition when seconds count disks are a disadvantage.

[Bondurant]

You are arguing with someone who sees little to no need for discs.

That said, I'll take that bet. £20 for the fundraiser as a friendly wager?

[100thmonkey]

Can we get off the disk subject now and discuss if carbon rail or alloy rail saddles make your arse any less sore?

I am joking by the way

More mountains today. Yippeeeee

[Bondurant]

Yes, hoping for an exciting stage today. It was good to see one of the big hitters attacking properly on Saturday, more of the same please.

[cbh]

You are arguing with someone who sees little to no need for discs.

That said, I'll take that bet. £20 for the fundraiser as a friendly wager?

You're on

[Bondurant]

Good stuff

Great stage today I thought. Gutted for Hirschi.

[matt]

Roglic to win

+1



Great human, our former ski jumper, modest even when the cameras go off.




Respect !

[matt]

Tadej Pogačar !

[thieuster]

Fantastic day for cycling.

I'm curious what will happen tomorrow. A simple-take-it-easy trip or...

Menno

[wotsthecrack]

Wow just wow, was cheering on Pogacar but as he reeled in Roglic really felt for him watching the Tour slip away. Brilliant to watch.

[xellos99]

So different these days, im so used to watching the old Sky Team crush everyone.

This is a very refreshing tour IMO

[trident-7]

Wow, that was real edge of the seat stuff. Absolutely amazing. So good for the sport. Vive le tour!

[Montello]

Incredible ride. Crushed the field. Hope it’s genuine.

[Skier]

Tadej Pogačar !

This! What a great ride and exciting stage. I have had little time to watch this year as work has been manic but that was worth setting aside time for. Chapeau Tadej.

[PickleB]

Roglic to win

+1

Great human, our former ski jumper, modest even when the cameras go off.

Respect !

So close and a complete gentleman even if thoroughly disappointed. Hats off to him.

And to Pogačar. What a ride to be the winner...of three jerseys.

Congratulations to one and all of the finishers.

[markl]

Wow just wow, was cheering on Pogacar but as he reeled in Roglic really felt for him watching the Tour slip away. Brilliant to watch.

+1.

Brilliant to watch this afternoon!