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Thread: Furlough and annual leave

  1. #1

    Furlough and annual leave

    Hello everybody, hope all is well.

    I was furloughed and I've been back at work for around 8 week now. When I and others that were furloughed returned to work we were told that X amount of holiday days had been taken off us. Just like that, no paperwork, no asking us to use it just a simple, you have lost this amount be grateful you are back.

    From what I can see online, I don't think this is right. I thought leave could now be carried over to next year. I brought it up with the relevant department and was just told, we topped up your wage and you still have a job, this is what we have to do. From them I had heard that another department were grumbling about it and today I've heard another lot are not happy.

    I had decided to accept it but it's wound me up again this evening. Should I forget it? Is it wrong how they have gone about it? All this Covid-19 stuff has brought to light just how poorly the place is managed and I'm in the spotlight for going against the grain and we know best attitude of the place over the past couple of weeks.

    I know how many people have lost jobs, it's taken me a while to type this and post it. Grateful for any PM's or replies.

  2. #2
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkle View Post
    Hello everybody, hope all is well.

    I was furloughed and I've been back at work for around 8 week now. When I and others that were furloughed returned to work we were told that X amount of holiday days had been taken off us. Just like that, no paperwork, no asking us to use it just a simple, you have lost this amount be grateful you are back.

    It's a variance to your contract - write back and say you don't accept it - the government is very clear about this:

    Workers who have been placed on furlough continue to accrue statutory holiday entitlements, and any additional holiday provided for under their employment contract.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-...virus-covid-19

  3. #3
    Master
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    You can be 'forced' to take annual leave. Even whilst on furlough. They must give you twice the notice for amount of days you must take. For example, 10 day notice 5 days AL...a useful fact to know...

    Anyway that hasn't happened in your case and what they have done to you is not in compliance with employment law.

    Sad to hear that some employers are going about things in these ways. They may be right that they didn't have to top you up and then retain the roles, but an employer like that will surely have issues with staff retention going forward when things start to become normal. Very short term thinking. Assuming not a big or well known company!!? If so...press will be all over this.

  4. #4
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    There were articles on this in the paper and I’m fairly sure your employer has the right to ask you to have some of your holiday allowance whilst on furlough. I think they have to give you notice though. That said personally I think if your employer has topped up your wages you need to be fair to them. That comment might controversial but it’s all about survival for businesses right now. Imagine if someone is furloughed until the end of October (which is when the scheme currently ends) and comes back in November and expects 4 weeks paid holiday in the last two months of the year.

    Everyone that I employ has been fair apart from 1. All the admin had to go on furlough as they had children and couldn’t work. One of them Originally did 3 days a week as her contract. She agreed to come back for 3 days every other week back at the start of July but said she couldn’t do more. She did 8 days that month (was off sick for 1 day) and decided to take holiday on her week in August. So effectively she’s had 4 months off, worked 8 days in July and then has got nearly all of August off until near the end. All the Directors and admin think she’s just taken the pee. August is the hardest month for staff coverage but there wasn’t a lot we could do. Long story but was easier to agree than argue. She’s just made it clear she couldn’t give a toss about the business. Some of my admin have really worked hard and I feel sorry for them. It’s come to the stage where it’s almost pointless her being at work as people have got by without her. Redundancy would be logical but were also recruiting which complicates it. In hindsight I wish I hadn’t topped up their wages to 100%, but too late for that now.

  5. #5
    Craftsman RS404's Avatar
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    Your employer is a scumbag. They've been reimbursed by the government in full for your furlough pay, now they're trying to nick a few days holiday off their own employees, reprehensible behaviour.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Boss13 View Post
    You can be 'forced' to take annual leave. Even whilst on furlough. They must give you twice the notice for amount of days you must take. For example, 10 day notice 5 days AL...a useful fact to know...
    I was aware of this but we didn't receive anything. In the notification of being placed on furlough it did say we may ask you to take annual leave during the furlough period but we will notify you if this is the case. First I heard was when I returned to work.

    A well known employer in the area, already been in the papers/on the news recently....

  7. #7
    Master mondie's Avatar
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    They cannot do that. Your employer can force you to take leave while on furlough but you must be given statutory notice which is two days for every day you are being directed to take. ie. 2 weeks notice for one weeks leave. Your employer cannot simply remove entitlement without following proper process.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Devonian View Post
    There were articles on this in the paper and I’m fairly sure your employer has the right to ask you to have some of your holiday allowance whilst on furlough. I think they have to give you notice though. That said personally I think if your employer has topped up your wages you need to be fair to them. That comment might controversial but it’s all about survival for businesses right now. Imagine if someone is furloughed until the end of October (which is when the scheme currently ends) and comes back in November and expects 4 weeks paid holiday in the last two months of the year.
    I had accepted it, thinking along the same lines, cut them some slack, be grateful etc.
    However after hearing other people today still questioning it I thought I'd try and clear it up for myself and then decide what to do. I'm just a bit tired of the we know best, do what we say attitude. Firstly, the virus wasn't an issue but now after a lot of bad press and reviews it's suddenly all our problem and things that could have been dealt with early on have now come back on us. Just frustrating and it has really highlighted how crap some people are.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    It's a variance to your contract - write back and say you don't accept it - the government is very clear about this
    And when that doesn't work, where to then? Acas?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RS404 View Post
    Your employer is a scumbag. They've been reimbursed by the government in full for your furlough pay, now they're trying to nick a few days holiday off their own employees, reprehensible behaviour.
    You don't know that, his employer may have been paying him 100%, not the Government's 80%.

  11. #11
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkle View Post
    I had accepted it, thinking along the same lines, cut them some slack, be grateful etc.
    However after hearing other people today still questioning it I thought I'd try and clear it up for myself and then decide what to do. I'm just a bit tired of the we know best, do what we say attitude. Firstly, the virus wasn't an issue but now after a lot of bad press and reviews it's suddenly all our problem and things that could have been dealt with early on have now come back on us. Just frustrating and it has really highlighted how crap some people are.
    I think a lot depends on how your employer treats you really and only you know that. I know of some horrendous employers and likewise really decent ones. Hope you get it sorted.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    You don't know that, his employer may have been paying him 100%, not the Government's 80%.
    He does say "we topped up your wage" so I presume the company have paid the extra 20% to make sure employees received full pay. Not a lot of employers I know have done this, so they're not completely ruthless

  13. #13
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    Happened where I work. I just took my medicine. Some will be made redundant. I don't like to give them a reason to make me one of them.

  14. #14
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkle View Post
    And when that doesn't work, where to then? Acas?

    Maybe - when it once happened to me (about another aspect of my contract) - I kept my old contract and a few other people who kicked up a fuss stayed on their old contract and everyone else moved onto the new...

  15. #15
    Master Skier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    You don't know that, his employer may have been paying him 100%, not the Government's 80%.
    Don't be ridiculous. If they were paying him 100% of his salary why put him on Furlough?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by boundary546 View Post
    He does say "we topped up your wage" so I presume the company have paid the extra 20% to make sure employees received full pay. Not a lot of employers I know have done this, so they're not completely ruthless

    Yep, they topped it up for us. Very kind and a surprise which now gets thrown back at anybody questioning anything.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skier View Post
    Don't be ridiculous. If they were paying him 100% of his salary why put him on Furlough?
    Don't be rediculous.

  18. #18
    Right, thanks everybody. Anymore useful info appreciated or anything on who to approach outside of work about this, I know doing it internally will do nothing.

    I'll pass on the info to some of the other guys still trying to fight it and keep an eye on progress.

  19. #19
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkle View Post
    Right, thanks everybody. Anymore useful info appreciated or anything on who to approach outside of work about this, I know doing it internally will do nothing.

    I'll pass on the info to some of the other guys still trying to fight it and keep an eye on progress.

    No Union I take it?

  20. #20
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    Did they pay your holidays days as extra to your wages or just take them off your with no payment?

    If it's the former I'd think it reasonable especially in the context of paying you 20% they didn't have to.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    No Union I take it?
    No. Funnily enough my line manager said, I bet Mike is in a union, he's northern. Wish I bloody was now!

  22. #22
    Your employer cannot reduce your holiday entitlement without your agreement.

  23. #23
    Master village's Avatar
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    I think many employers have failed to fully grasp how to deal with furloughed employees correctly. It is good that they topped up your wages to 100% and were in a position to be able to do so. As mentioned, there have been plenty of employers who chose not to.
    I had to look up the relevant legislation (Working Times Regulation 1988) but your employer could instruct you to take annual leave whilst on furlough but ,as has been said, they must give you twice the days notice of this requirement as the days leave they wish you to take.
    I suspect that the furlough letter sent out by your employer (.where they said that they may require you to take leave whilst on annual leave and that they would notify you if that was the case) will be their version of giving a blanket warning to everyone.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by KNog View Post
    Did they pay your holidays days as extra to your wages or just take them off your with no payment?

    If it's the former I'd think it reasonable especially in the context of paying you 20% they didn't have to.
    No they didn't pay any extra, just took the days off. No notification or anything, I think I had asked about what was happening after hearing rumours so not everybody had heard at the same time.

    I think I'll have to let this one go but remember it and look out for other dodgy things. It's not doing my mood/health any good dwelling on it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkle View Post
    No they didn't pay any extra, just took the days off. No notification or anything, I think I had asked about what was happening after hearing rumours so not everybody had heard at the same time.

    I think I'll have to let this one go but remember it and look out for other dodgy things. It's not doing my mood/health any good dwelling on it.
    Might be best to just avoid this battle and concentrate on the war that is employment. If there are redundancies on the horizon the guys who kick up a stink over this may regret it.

    Much as it stinks, think long term.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by KNog View Post
    Might be best to just avoid this battle and concentrate on the war that is employment. If there are redundancies on the horizon the guys who kick up a stink over this may regret it.

    Much as it stinks, think long term.
    Already done, a few us could see who would be booted out at the first opportunity and it happened.

    I think I need to keep my head down at the minute and let others give this a crack if they want. I'll certainly add this to the reason to leave list for the future.

  27. #27
    Craftsman RS404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    You don't know that, his employer may have been paying him 100%, not the Government's 80%.
    Yes, turns out they were. I take that back then.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNog View Post
    Might be best to just avoid this battle and concentrate on the war that is employment. If there are redundancies on the horizon the guys who kick up a stink over this may regret it.

    Much as it stinks, think long term.
    100% agree with this. Your employer could well be struggling, and redundancies could be next.
    When you stand back and think about it, it’s a simple way to help your employer.
    Now is not the time to lose your job.

    Pete

  29. #29
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkle View Post
    Already done, a few us could see who would be booted out at the first opportunity and it happened.

    I think I need to keep my head down at the minute and let others give this a crack if they want. I'll certainly add this to the reason to leave list for the future.
    Sometimes it’s best to bide your time and swallow your pride. It hurts but if needs must to get through, then needs must.
    Add up what you’re losing, against what you could lose if you push it.
    The only thing that matters is the best outcome for you and your family.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Skier View Post
    Don't be ridiculous. If they were paying him 100% of his salary why put him on Furlough?
    Eh, why not?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkle View Post
    Already done, a few us could see who would be booted out at the first opportunity and it happened.

    I think I need to keep my head down at the minute and let others give this a crack if they want. I'll certainly add this to the reason to leave list for the future.
    In my view this is definitely the right thing to do unless you are comfortable with being made redundant.

    Many thousands of businesses are going to be on their knees in the coming months (and quite possibly years) so if this happened to me I’d swallow it and keep working hard. They have taken a liberty and will get away with it, but if and when they need to make more cuts they will undoubtedly look to chop those who are more ‘difficult’.

  32. #32
    Craftsman Kevin's Avatar
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    The other side of the coin is that I worked right through, often doing more than normal because half the people I would normally work with were furloughed.
    So that is since March without a holiday, I am knackered.
    We have quite a few people who had over 3 months off on full pay who are now whinging because they lost a few day leave.

    Well the firm have just announced 20% redundancies, as far as I am concerned they can now have all the holiday they want, permanently.
    We didn't seem to need them when they weren't there.

  33. #33
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    Another thing to take note of...do you have a company policy on what happens to untaken annual leave? Perhaps in contract or handbook?

    Assuming here that your contractual is more than statutory?

    You referenced legislation earlier around untaken leave...I believe that only applies to statutory.

  34. #34
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Tough call Mike.

    Given the current climate and the fact that employers can ask staff to take leave over the period, I would park my angst for now.

    Save this for another day.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  35. #35
    Master
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    There will obviously be 2 sides to this discussion - those that employ, and those that are employed.

    If your employer struggles to balance the books in future, this would be as good a time as any to shed those who are vehemently out for themselves without looking at the bigger picture. After having 3 or 4 months off, paid, why would you want to return to work and argue that you want the right to the normal
    holiday entitlement? Yes, you might be entitled to it by law, but a little consideration for your employers position and circumstances should be taken.

  36. #36
    Thanks all.

    I can see it from both sides.. hence me leaving it for a few weeks.

    Lots of things going on at the minute at work all adding to the anger and low morale and you think about other stuff in the past that then gives a feeling of, who do you think you are?
    I shouldn't be surprised, this is a bloke that has the girls in the office ring RAF Brize Norton and request them to not fly planes over..

    I'll leave it, at times I've felt as if i'm the only one that could see it was wrong so i'm glad I've not made this problem in my head!

  37. #37
    Master
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    I was on furlough and my employer kindly topped up the extra 20%. Part way through they suggested deducting two days annual leave for each month of furlough and I just thought that was both fair and sensible. We're in extraordinary times and I see employers and employees as in it together to their mutual benefit wherever possible.

  38. #38
    Master M1011's Avatar
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    My 2 cents OP.

    Technically they're not able to force you to use your annual leave without prior notice as others have alluded to above. If you're confident that none of the paperwork or messages that were received around furlough covered this, then yes you're technically entitled to get your holidays back.

    However, I really don't think you should. In context of just this anyway, I can't speak for general relations with your employer. They topped up to 100% which is a bonus, many companies didn't. That alone probably more than makes up for the holiday days. Whilst I know furlough isn't a holiday and many folk quickly wanted to get back to work, you did effectively had a prolonged break from the workplace at 100% pay - using up a few holiday days doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

    Also as others have mentioned, there's a time and a place to pick fights with an employer. When they've just technically done you a solid (100% pay) and are likely in a tough financial situation with possible redundancies around the corner, it may not be the time to get pedantic about the technicalities of the holiday rules when you've just had I assume a good few months away from work.

    Quote Originally Posted by RS404 View Post
    Your employer is a scumbag. They've been reimbursed by the government in full for your furlough pay, now they're trying to nick a few days holiday off their own employees, reprehensible behaviour.
    Not quite, they were reimbursed 80% and paid 20%.
    Also if they don't take pro-rate holiday days away for that period, then in real terms they paid for those pro-rata days as well (as they'll foot the bill while the employee is on hols at a later date).

    Quote Originally Posted by Skier View Post
    Don't be ridiculous. If they were paying him 100% of his salary why put him on Furlough?
    What he means is the employee got paid 100% of their salary by the company. The company will claim 80% of that cost back from the government, so in real terms they incur 20% cost, government incurs 80% cost and the employee gets 100% of salary.
    The 20% they gave was optional. Although personally I'd look negatively on any company that's in a financial position to pay the 20% and didn't choose to.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    Happened where I work. I just took my medicine. Some will be made redundant. I don't like to give them a reason to make me one of them.
    This.

  40. #40
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    They did something similar at the place my wife works, however they did tell them that they would be taking some holidays off them. They also topped it up to 100%
    If you work out how much that 20% is over the time you were furloughed, I wouldn’t mind betting that it comes to a lot more than the holidays they have taken off you.
    Yes they went about it wrong, but at the end of the day you were off (I’m guessing here obviously) at a time when the weather was amazing and getting paid 100% for it.

  41. #41
    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    It’s a hard one to swallow but I think people have to be realistic.
    It could be worse you could be out of a job and you have had a few months off work.
    They put the vast majority of staff at my workplace on Furlough and said that they needed to use 40% of their leave before 1st of July, they topped their wages up to 100%
    Some staff such as me worked through lock down and were busier than ever and it’s been a stressful time. We also had to use 40% of our leave during lock down - but due to work load it was impossible. It looks like I might now loose that leave.
    The thing that does sting for me is my 10% pay cut during the same period and up to the end of the year. This was for all senior staff. The people that have had 3 months off did not get the pay cut.
    However I have to suck it up as the bills need paying and these are unprecedented times.

  42. #42
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    On balance, Mike, I reckon you should consider yourself pretty fortunate. I'd not be complaining too much if it were me.

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by RS404 View Post
    Your employer is a scumbag. They've been reimbursed by the government in full for your furlough pay, now they're trying to nick a few days holiday off their own employees, reprehensible behaviour.
    "we topped up your wage and you still have a job" and could have been bleeding money the last 6 months.

  44. #44
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    On balance, Mike, I reckon you should consider yourself pretty fortunate. I'd not be complaining too much if it were me.
    This.

    Your employers tried to do their best for their employees by making wages up to 100%.

    Complaining now that you’ve lost five days holiday this year (all accrued whilst you were off work anyway) strikes me as pretty ungrateful.

    As mentioned earlier, these are unprecedented times and we’ve all got to do our bid. You’ve been fortunate in that you’ve not lost out financially and only lost a little (more) paid time off work.

    It may be that taking this step is the difference between survival and failure for the company.

  45. #45
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Your employer cannot reduce your holiday entitlement without your agreement.

    I don’t think they are. All they are saying is that some of that holiday occurred during the furlough period.

    But let me see. A person gets 40 extra day paid holiday and then complains when his employer says that some of those days should be classified as annual leave. FFS!

    What next will people complain that they didn’t get their a Bank holidays either because of furlough.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  46. #46
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    I concur with a lot of the views here that now isn't the time to complain as it could be construed as being ungrateful and in such a scenario if redundancies do have to be made it may mark you out as not having the company's best interests at heart.

  47. #47
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    I would be sucking this up. The more waves you make the quicker you drown.

  48. #48
    Master gerard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    What next will people complain that they didn’t get their a Bank holidays either because of furlough.
    Yup! 2 of mine have. They were both on furlough. One of them who had holiday booked and took it while furlough has now complained it couldn't really be considered holiday and should be allowed to carry it over.



    Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

  49. #49
    Master village's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    Yup! 2 of mine have. They were both on furlough. One of them who had holiday booked and took it while furlough has now complained it couldn't really be considered holiday and should be allowed to carry it over.



    Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

    Ask him/her if they would like a reference for their job search...

    Seriously though, i have listened to people at work whining away...its incredible.

  50. #50
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    Yup! 2 of mine have. They were both on furlough. One of them who had holiday booked and took it while furlough has now complained it couldn't really be considered holiday and should be allowed to carry it over.



    Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk
    I'd be inclined to agree that an employee can't take annual leave if on furlough (but I've no problems with an appropriate monthly leave allowance being deducted whilst on furlough).

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