San Martin - Doing Seiko Better Than Seiko?

[davidj54]

Hi all, just wasted to share how impressed I've been with a new watch I've bought. Early heads up - its homage content for those not interested in that area.

I'd seen a number of vids on YouTube about San Martin (pronounced San Marteeen - the Spanish way!), a Chinese microbrand that started in 2016 and now have their own factory and online store rather than selling via third parties. Their most popular watch is the one I picked up here - the SN007, which is essentially a 62MAS homage, or, given its size perhaps a homage to the SLA017 reissue.




In short this watch has a 40mm case, 48mm lug to lug and thickness of 14mm. About 2mm of that thickness is attributable to the very nice boxed sapphire crystal it has, which adds some gorgeous vintage style distortion to the dial. It also has a fully lumed ceramic bexel insert, 200m WR with an engraved screw down crown, a nicely executed engraved screw down case back.




The dial is a very nice sunburst grey with applied indices. The lume is outstanding - easily as good as an SKX - it’s very generously applied, starts glowing in the merest hint of lowlight and lasts for ages. Genuinely up there with the best lume I’ve come across. The bracelet has solid end links and a proper milled clasp with six micro adjusts. And inside, the Seiko (yes) NH35 hacking and handwinding movement, which is essentially the 4R35 found in the Samurai and numerous other models.




The price of this watch is about £200, but after delivery and import fees its closer to £250. It wears really well, and also has drilled lugs for easy strap changes. My only real criticism is that the end links jut out a bit at the back - although it’s not noticeable when wearing.

I'm honestly blown away by the quality to price point ratio. You can also choose different dial logos - there's a hexagonal San Martin logo that looks like the TAG Heuer logo, or you can personalise it at checkout ie have your name or a monogram instead of a logo.




Apart from waxing lyrical about the value proposition of the San Martin, I suppose I wanted to rant that at this cost - and upwards toward £600, Seiko would be giving you the exact same movement but with mineral crystal, aluminium insert, hollow end links, pressed clasp and a ticket for the misalignment lottery.

San Martin have shown here what can be achieved at a very competitive price - and they've done it using Seiko's own design with Seiko's own movement! So if they can do it why can't Seiko themselves? If Seiko were to put their own logo on this exact watch and offer it for say £500 as a flagship value diver to replace the SKX it would sell like absolute hot cakes, they wouldn't be able to make them quick enough. Plus they'd be executing a piece that offered both real quality and a nod to their brand heritage in the diver range. Instead, they took the 62MAS design and reissued it as a £4000 limited edition watch.

In a way I find it a frustration, in another way I say fair play to San Martin seeing where Seiko are falling down and filling the void.



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[Alansmithee]

Microbrand?

Are they not just a like Steeldive and a whole range of other chinese brands - who all seem to buy off the same factories that slap on whatever logo you like?

[davidj54]

Microbrand?

Are they not just a like Steeldive and a whole range of other chinese brands - who all seem to buy off the same factories that slap on whatever logo you like?

I dunno how they do it mate. Or whether micro brand is the right term; but at one point Steinhart were referred to as a micro brand and they just take off the peg Swiss movements and make homages, which is essentially what these guys are doing but with Japanese movements. People seem to disregard it more because of the Chinese factor.

[Alansmithee]

I dunno how they do it mate. Or whether micro brand is the right term; but at one point Steinhart were referred to as a micro brand and they just take off the peg Swiss movements and make homages, which is essentially what these guys are doing but with Japanese movements. People seem to disregard it more because of the Chinese factor.

What i mean is - if you and put in a big enough order with the factory - we could get ones made with our logo - San martin or Steeldive are irrelevant in the process - I do not think they are involved in any way with the manufacturing.

[davidj54]

What i mean is - if you and put in a big enough order with the factory - we could get ones made with our local - San martin or Steeldive are irrelevant in the process - I do not think they are involved in any way with the manufacturing.

Im sure I heard some YouTuber say they had their own factory but I imagine you’re right - they will have an idea of what they think would make a popular seller - ie a 62MAS of X proportions with Y bracelet and Z clasp, and put the build order in then slap their logo on it and market and distribute via their website.

Regardless of how they get there the point is, if these nobodies can take a Seiko design and a Seiko movement and make a watch as good as this for 200 quid - and I’d say it’s on a par with the Steinhart OVM I had, then why on earth can’t Seiko (anymore).

[raysablade]

What i mean is - if you and put in a big enough order with the factory - we could get ones made with our local - San martin or Steeldive are irrelevant in the process - I do not think they are involved in any way with the manufacturing.

I've had both the San Martin and the Steeldive versions of the 6105, was hugely impressed by the San Martin which i received first and assumed that being drawn from the same parts bin the Steeldive would simply be more of the same for £50 less.

Absolutely not, i cant put my finger on why exactly but i sense that whilst the basic patterns for the components are the same the finishing and materials used can vary significantly. Suffice to say that the San Martin is finished to a level where it is all the dive watch i will ever want and i've had some heavy hitters in that category in my time. You only have to look at and feel that case back and crown to understand that the people behind this brand seem to enjoy making watches as well as enjoying making money. The lume too is stellar.















Sad to say but the Steeldive i bought was, in comparison, a souless joyless lump despite being exactly the same spec.

[davidj54]

I've had both the San Martin and the Steeldive versions of the 6105, was hugely impressed by the San Martin which i received first and assumed that being drawn from the same parts bin the Steeldive would simply be more of the same for £50 less.

Absolutely not, i cant put my finger on why exactly but i sense that whilst the basic patterns for the components are the same the finishing and materials used can vary significantly. Suffice to say that the San Martin is finished to a level where it is all the dive watch i will ever want and i've had some heavy hitters in that category in my time. You only have to look at and feel that case back and crown to understand that the people behind this brand seem to enjoy making watches as well as enjoying making money. The lume too is stellar.

To be honest my expectations were low - I like the 62MAS design and was looking for a summer watch. SM seemed to get exclusively good write ups on YouTube so I thought what the hell, I’ll give it a go - and I’m really glad I did. It has far outstripped my expectations.

The bracelet is good for a £200 watch, not insanely good but good. Better than you get on a £200 Seiko or Orient for example. But the watch itself is where I’ve been so impressed. The sunburst dial, the depth of the applied indices, the quality of the lume, the lumed ceramic bezel which has nice action and no back play. Everything from bezel to chapter ring to index lines up perfectly. The case sizing is spot on. There are nice touches like the signed crown, deeply engraved caseback and drilled lugs. And, the box sapphire looks amazing - luxurious even. The overall package feels well above a £200 watch, as I said before I’ve had a couple of Steinharts and I’d happily say this is on the same level. It’s way better than the Orient Mako/Ray II. It could be suggested these guys have no QC and I just lucked out with a prime model, but then that’s no different to Seiko.

I get that it’s not original design and that doesn’t sit well with everybody, but if you can live with that then you’re onto a winner. I’d love a SLA017 but if I’m spending over £4K on a watch it’s not gonna be on a regular (not even Grand) Seiko.

[bond]

After reading the above, getting a sense that San Martin are a tier above Steeldive. This leaves me with one question - where do heimendllr (Sharkey) fall now. On par with San Martin , above it or under it or under Steeldive. They too (heimendllr) have an extensive Seiko homage range and it's interesting to see if anyone has had experience with those also

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[MrBanks]

Im sure I heard some YouTuber say they had their own factory but I imagine you’re right - they will have an idea of what they think would make a popular seller - ie a 62MAS of X proportions with Y bracelet and Z clasp, and put the build order in then slap their logo on it and market and distribute via their website.

Regardless of how they get there the point is, if these nobodies can take a Seiko design and a Seiko movement and make a watch as good as this for 200 quid - and I’d say it’s on a par with the Steinhart OVM I had, then why on earth can’t Seiko (anymore).

I'd take that with a very glass of salt. No way in hell would they have their own factory set up to make homages. They are working with one of the many Shenzhen outfits who produce these day in day out.

[number2]

After reading the above, getting a sense that San Martin are a tier above Steeldive. This leaves me with one question - where do heimendllr (Sharkey) fall now. On par with San Martin , above it or under it or under Steeldive. They too (heimendllr) have an extensive Seiko homage range and it's interesting to see if anyone has had experience with those also

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It's the "luck of the draw" as they come out of the same factory.

[Tickeros]

There's a SM '62 mas' G2. Willard dial.

[James T. Kirk©]

After reading the above, getting a sense that San Martin are a tier above Steeldive. This leaves me with one question - where do heimendllr (Sharkey) fall now. On par with San Martin , above it or under it or under Steeldive. They too (heimendllr) have an extensive Seiko homage range and it's interesting to see if anyone has had experience with those also

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I own a Heimdallr Sharkey "Apocalyps" and it feels just like a Seiko: winding, setting, but with NH35A and sapphire. In my case the bezel is a bit to thight, but it's not something I use daily... I also own the Steeldive "Puck", a very nice executed watch, 100 bar, sapphire, good lume! also on the bezel and the steeldive logo on dial, crown and back, very nicely polished an brushed. Only the bezel is quite loose, so needed a tad more QC. I don't own a SM yet...

[snowman]

It's the "luck of the draw" as they come out of the same factory.

This - They are all exactly the same aside from the logo that gets applied (or doesn't!)

M

[raysablade]

This - They are all exactly the same aside from the logo that gets applied (or doesn't!)

M

That certainly wasn't the case with my experience of the 6105 Steeldive and San Martin watches, that i owned at the same time.

The lume on the San Martin is up there with Seiko in terms of quality with the; hands, dial and bezel insert matching perfectly. The case finishing was better too.

The Steeldive was moved on, but i really can't see how the San Martin could be improved on so it is a keeper. I think if you had both in your hand you could tell the difference.

They might be made in the same factory and i'm sure they share many "blank" parts but if you can accept that the overhead in assembling outwardly identical £120 and a £160 watches in China is likely to be the same. £40 extra in terms of parts quality and finishing on the San Martin is likely to go a long way.

[snowman]

That certainly wasn't the case with my experience of the 6105 Steeldive and San Martin watches, that i owned at the same time.

The lume on the San Martin is up there with Seiko in terms of quality with the; hands, dial and bezel insert matching perfectly. The case finishing was better too.

The Steeldive was moved on, but i really can't see how the San Martin could be improved on so it is a keeper. I think if you had both in your hand you could tell the difference.

They might be made in the same factory and i'm sure they share many "blank" parts but if you can accept that the overhead in assembling "identical" £120 and a £160 watches in China is likely to be the same. £40 extra in terms of parts quality and finishing on the San Martin is likely to go a long way.

I think you just got the luck of the draw (as number2 said) or possibly improved QC overall over time (there's no guarantee both were made at the same time), but if you have any evidence of additional work on San Martins I'm more than happy to be proved wrong.

M

[davidj54]

That certainly wasn't the case with my experience of the 6105 Steeldive and San Martin watches, that i owned at the same time.

The lume on the San Martin is up there with Seiko in terms of quality with the; hands, dial and bezel insert matching perfectly. The case finishing was better too.

The Steeldive was moved on, but i really can't see how the San Martin could be improved on so it is a keeper. I think if you had both in your hand you could tell the difference.

They might be made in the same factory and i'm sure they share many "blank" parts but if you can accept that the overhead in assembling "identical" £120 and a £160 watches in China is likely to be the same. £40 extra in terms of parts quality and finishing on the San Martin is likely to go a long way.

I’ve never had Steel Dive so cant comment there, but would echo what’s been said about SM re the decent finishing. Mine is well finished, the lume is really really good - as good as any SKX I’ve had, not the usual feeble lume you see on these Chinese homages, and everything lines up perfectly. As I said in the OP, ceramic lumed bezel, boxed sapphire crystal, Seiko movement, great lume and a half decent SEL bracelet - I’m finding it very hard to pick fault at the £200 mark.

[raysablade]

I think you just got the luck of the draw (as number2 said) or possibly improved QC overall over time (there's no guarantee both were made at the same time), but if you have any evidence of additional work on San Martins I'm more than happy to be proved wrong.

M

The thumbnails in my earlier post click through to high res images, i think the difference is noticeable. The machining and polishing of the logo on the crown and case back of the San Martins I've had is exceptionally good.

PS... and i've just noticed that the images highlight the contrasting lume quality.

[JIG67]

I bought Steeldive Tuna, MM300 and 6105 homages about a month ago and was super impressed at the time. The experiment has been expensive however as I’ve now ended up with a real Seiko SBDX023 and both the SBBN031 and 035. Anyway, I saw the OP’s note and thought sod it, I’ll see how the San Martin’s compare to my now redundant Steeldives. I bought the same watch as the OP along with the San Martin turtle and 6105. They arrived today and side by side they are a step up. The San Martin’s all have nicely domed sapphire crystals - most noticeable on the 6105 as the Steeldive’s was a flat as a pancake. The brushing and overall finishing are better but the watches, as others have said, are slightly more expensive. I’ve now ordered a Sharky to compare. Be interesting to see what that’s like. What has been great though is that this had been a bit of fun and I’ve ended up with some watches I really like to add to the collection. I must admit to the kind of thrill I used to get when I first got into watches and would find new stuff I liked all the time. Hey ho.

[snowman]

The thumbnails in my earlier post click through to high res images, i think the difference is noticeable. The machining and polishing of the logo on the crown and case back of the San Martins I've had is exceptionally good.

PS... and i've just noticed that the images highlight the contrasting lume quality.

I'd agree that the pictures make the San Martin look better, but there's quite a difference in the photos overall (contrast, colour balance, brightness), so it's impossible to tell from those what the difference is in the watches.

I notice your Steeldive has the ugly pip bezel, like my Heimdallr, which marks it out as an earlier example.

I've not seen a San Martin in person, but my recent Steeldives are better finished than the Heimdallr 6105 I have, so, for me, the jury is still out on whether San Martins are getting a higher level of finish or not, but obviously people with them seem to think so.

The downside, though, is that San Martins seem a fair bit dearer and that puts them in competition with a lot of other watches.

M

[martyloveswatches]

I had a Heimdallr with extremely tight bezel, Dagaz with extremely loose bezel and Seiko's with extremely alignment issues so I dont know what to think anymore...
Citizen for me in a budget category

Poslano sa mog SM-G960F koriste?i Tapatalk

[number2]

I'd agree that the pictures make the San Martin look better, but there's quite a difference in the photos overall (contrast, colour balance, brightness), so it's impossible to tell from those what the difference is in the watches.

I notice your Steeldive has the ugly pip bezel, like my Heimdallr, which marks it out as an earlier example.

I've not seen a San Martin in person, but my recent Steeldives are better finished than the Heimdallr 6105 I have, so, for me, the jury is still out on whether San Martins are getting a higher level of finish or not, but obviously people with them seem to think so.

The downside, though, is that San Martins seem a fair bit dearer and that puts them in competition with a lot of other watches.

M

The more you pay the more entrenched your justification, just look at those who buy iPhones.

[raysablade]

The more you pay the more entrenched your justification, just look at those who buy iPhones.

One thing that I can say definitively and entirely subjectively, is that the San Martin hommage to the 6105 has killed my desire to own another automatic dive watch Seiko or otherwise. It really is that good, in my eyes and on my wrist.

I've had modern Seiko dive watches right up to MM300 level and none of them acheived that level of satisfaction. So in answer to the OP's point this watch does the 70s Seiko aesthetic, that i love, better than Seiko are doing for less than £200.

[Watch freek]

These San Martins have got my interest .
Were are you guys getting these from in the UK.

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[Passenger]

IF I was after such a watch, Rays done enough to have piqued my interest.

[steppy]

These San Martins have got my interest .
Were are you guys getting these from in the UK.

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Not from Uk

https://sanmartinwatches.com/wp/

[raysablade]

I got mine from AliExpress losts of different ads on there. The original, that i bought for my brother, had the plain insert. The ceramic bezel insert model, that i bought for myself, seems to be thiner on the ground now but well worth the extra if you can find one. The key to telling the difference is to look at the lume shots.

[raysablade]

Not from Uk

https://sanmartinwatches.com/wp/

I wonder if they would do "SEIKO" as a custom logo?

PS not that i would want them to.

[Alansmithee]

I wonder if they would do "SEIKO" as a custom logo?

PS not that i would want them to.

We should get a forum order with Sayco on it. :-)

[davidj54]

These San Martins have got my interest .
Were are you guys getting these from in the UK.

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https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F383664598332

I got my 62MAS homage with the sapphire and lumed ceramic bezel from this guy on eBay, he had 5 at the time but listing now says 1 left. Next day delivery with no import charge and he was good to deal with, a watch guy for sure.

[snowman]

I wonder if they would do "SEIKO" as a custom logo?

PS not that i would want them to.

I'd be amazed if they aren't out there.

M

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[number2]

I'd be amazed if they aren't out there.

M

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Yes they're known as "fakes".

[Glen Goyne]

In the “Seiko, what are they not doing right?” topic the opening post raves about the retangula/rdunae Seiko homages. Are they also from the same factories as these ones?


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[rodia77]

Yes they're known as "fakes".

And can be easily distinguished from the originals by properly aligned parts.

[raysablade]

And can be easily distinguished from the originals by properly aligned parts.

Microbrands across the world have been demading tight toloerances, high reliability and mid tier european standard finishing from Chinese factories for years. Offering $150 a unit for the product and picketing $250 dollars for themselves and $50 for their tax authority.

i'm sure that Chiense factories with the fully depreciated tooling, responsive supply chains and armies of experienced mid-tier watchmakers can see the oportuities that a few strong domestic microbrands and web based marketing might present. They are probably better placed than Seiko to apply the human intervention needed to meet acceptable standards on a sub $500 dollar watch. Even then they can make a profit a $200.

[davidj54]

Took the San Martin on a spontaneous family trip to the coast, put it through its paces - boating, bodyboarding, swimming, beaching, footballing, bit of climbing and rock pooling - never missed a beat. Wore in it the evenings for meals out around the harbour, looked the part with its vintage diver aesthetics. And, our room was pitch black as we were sharing with the kids - but when I was being awoken by seagulls outside the lume was still glowing like a furnace to let me know it was 4am.

Am really pleased with this pick up - not a main watch but cracking summer beater in terms of looks and spec for durability.






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[huytonman]

After reading this thread and seeing reviews on-line I decided to give one of these a try via the Ebay UK seller (pretty much the same price as Aliexpress without the shipping delays). It arrived with 2 days and Initially I thought it looked a bit blingy but OK - seemed well made though. What surprised me was when I checked the movement on the timegrapher, which showed a very credible set of numbers, and much better than any Seiko that I have had with the same movement - I have concluded that San Martin is not plonking the movement straight in from Seiko unadjusted and are taking the trouble to regulate these before shipping (having seen others on line with similar results to mine I dont think mine is a fluke of good luck) - if correct its an impressive bit of attention to detail for a low cost (relatively) watch.
Keith

[raysablade]

I've been taking and retaking some photos for an ebay auction this weekend. I took the chance to take a few more of the 6105 hommage.




















I really cant find a thing i would change on this one.

[stevecross]

I've been taking and retaking some photos for an ebay auction this weekend. I took the chance to take a few more of the 6105 hommage.





















I really cant find a thing i would change on this one.

Truly Beautiful, I do not see how like you say it could get better, Might have to try one of those lol