Reply With QuoteOOP's already been answered a few times.
Quite clearly marked up screws between the pics.
It's just a matter of time...
OOP's already been answered a few times.
Last edited by sickie; 13th August 2020 at 12:10.
[QUOTE=33JS;5503041]Just an update: The strap arrived back today. Well, I say strap, he's sent me the original buckle with his old damaged strap. You can see the screwdriver marks where he's taken the buckle off. Ebay are just about the tell me to F off and refund him but I'm going down fighting!
See the shot below of one section showing loads of wear on the rhs, the stitches are worn and discoloured whereas mine on the lhs are tight and not touching.
Pic below shows the screw bottom left has been turned and chewed to change over to worn strap.
You can 100% believe your bottom dollar that's exactly what he has done.
Win or lose ban Romania from biding on any items you sell. Along with a few similar country's.
Sent from my SM-N960F using TZ-UK mobile app
I don't think banning Romanian's is going to help too much, although it would make my own house a little quieter lol
It's just a matter of time...
Agree selling on Ebay can be risky, maybe set your buyer options? Mine are set to no foreign buyers and none with less than 10 positive reviews I think. Luckily I've never had an issue.
It's infuriating though eh!
Someone tried to scam be on a mobile phone years ago, the old "pay with nicked credit card and send a mate/brother/cousin to collect" trick....tried to get Visa and the Police involved to catch him, they weren't interested.....cost of doing business for them.
And, as expected ebay have taken the cash out of my account and closed the case. They suggest I go to Action Fraud.
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You can still dispute the decision.
You have 30 day's from the case being closed.
Go to eBay help page and search appeal a decision.
PS
You might want to look in the Watch Talk forum.
Panerai Kevlar Diving strap trap.
Sent from my SM-N960F using TZ-UK mobile appOriginally Posted by 33JS
Last edited by sickie; 13th August 2020 at 17:54.
Yeah, see it. Thanks. No shame at all!
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Hello
I was secretly hoping that you are a member here when I posted today.
PLEASE ....by all means go to Action Fraud
I am here waiting and knowing(same as you) the truth.
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Enjoy your strap.
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Thank you for nothing
I will as I already did before getting yours.
But....some people might take your answer like something that it's not .....like a nice gesture from a nice guy.
Please indulge me and go to the Action Fraud section and don't forget to keep this forum updated on the topic
I am more than offended by the way that you handled this and the way you were referring to me and my country
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My 2 cents, tried to be as objective as possible and perhaps this won't be popular.Just an update: The strap arrived back today. Well, I say strap, he's sent me the original buckle with his old damaged strap. You can see the screwdriver marks where he's taken the buckle off. Ebay are just about the tell me to F off and refund him but I'm going down fighting!
See the shot below of one section showing loads of wear on the rhs, the stitches are worn and discoloured whereas mine on the lhs are tight and not touching.
Pic below shows the screw bottom left has been turned and chewed to change over to worn strap.
Marius story is questionable.. taking off the buckle after raising a dispute, damaging the screw and pulling at the strap causing damage are all items he's openly admitted to on the other thread (link: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ing-strap-trap ). A lot of his posts attempt to talk around the issues rather than address them, and frankly I wouldn't have enough trust to do business with him.
That said... I suspect the strap 33JS got back was the original one, albeit in worse condition. The lighting has clearly played a big role in making the pictures look quite different, but a close look reveals they appear to be the same stitch for stitch, crack for crack, imperfect misalignment in the stitching is 1 for 1 etc. This may not be visible normally, but if you zoom in to the images it's almost like a fingerprint with the thread positioning etc. Feel free to critique my work, perhaps I missed something, but it seems highly likely to me that it's the same strap in both the before and after shot that 33JS posted. Pay particular attention to the bottom right hand corner of the strap and the right hand side of the top keeper.
I also don't think 33JS is attempting any wrongdoing here. There would be no point raising a thread during the dispute process if he was actually attempting to conduct a scam, why would he be angry at all if he was knowingly behind it? Conjecture of course, but I can't see that happening.
Every single photo Marius took of the strap looking bad has a little white spec on the screw attached to the strap on the far side. Every single photo in the original listing has that same little white spec on the same screw, but on the near side. So every single photo Marius has shared occurred after he messed about with the buckle, therefore they all become totally useless as evidence of anything really other than that Marius change the buckle (which he has admitted).
My best assessment with a bit of conjecture is this:
1) 33JS listed a strap, used as advertised but it certainly appears to be in good shape.
2) Marius received the strap and for whatever reason decided he didn't want it either due to the condition or perhaps due to his messing around with it. In any event we know he messed about with it, changed the buckle, pulled at it and generally degraded the condition - pretty unacceptable in my book. By the looks of it this quite starkly degraded the condition, but I can't say with any authority whether the condition was originally worse than advertised or not.
3) Marius began a dispute to return the item. 33JS objected to that dispute as he didn't recognise the condition of the strap as similar to the one he sent. Therefore he assumed a strap swap had occurred. However per the above images, I suspect it was the original strap returned in some fashion, just worse for wear after it's brief stay with Marius.
4) 33JS objected to this. Marius took offence at the claim of the strap being swapped (where technically I believe he was correct), and fixated on that rather than recognising the consequence of his own actions in damaging that strap before returning it. The posts in the other thread also lead me to believe this mindset is prevalent.
So basically I suspect Marius didn't gain from this, in that he returned the actual strap he received and ended up neutral at the end of it. I think he was incredibly callous with the product for unknown reasons, before changing his mind about it and using the aggravated damage as justification for return.
I suspect no dishonesty from 33JS. Whilst I disagree that a different strap was returned, I can understand why he may of thought that. Frankly no sensible person would deem that an acceptable return, so eBay has screwed him over by siding with the buyer on a 'not as described' case as the do in pretty much all circumstances.
Right, now I've offended everyone, off to bed
Agreed.Sent from my SM-N960F using TZ-UK mobile app
Just read both threads all the way through and coming to that same conclusion.
If that is the case it’s a poor show on the buyer’s behalf. If you buy something and open il the packaging and are not happy with it, put it to one side, open a dispute and send back as is. I admit it’s frustrating if you buy something used, start using it and realise the condition isn’t as you may have initially thought but if you start tampering with it and make it worse then you are responsible for that.
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Right, now I've offended everyone, off to bed
As above. The stitching patterns all over the strap show that the same was received and returned, and the screw damage is obvious. Once you mess with something you've bought it's end of story and there's no recourse to be had.
F.T.F.A.
I stopped selling items on ebay because i have a lot of issues with buyers and Paypal never help sellers :-(
Hello guys,
I should say that I am very disappointed by the way that almost everyone here rallied with one party without waiting for both sides to tell their part of the story.
In my mind I still think that this is not because I am not from the Emerald Island ( even if I was called in numerous VERY offensive ways and all were somehow related to myself not being British).
Once again I reiterate the fact that I DID NOT CHANGED the strap and that the strap that Jack received is his own.
How stupid do you think that I am to start a thread on a fraud subject …on a UK forum…..about an UK seller…Come on!
I did not started the thread before because I was waiting for a resolution from eBay to have a full story to share.
To be honest I never ever dreamed about eBay ruling this in my favor (me being in Romania and the seller UK based…same as eBay.uk)and this one being my one and ONLY return on eBay.
Just as a verifiable fact: I did receive from US a visually damaged (pretty expensive) *car part but because I was able to mount it on my car and it didn’t affect the functionality I did not sent it back even if the seller offered to change that free of charge…….
Also , as I previously stated, I take all the blame for taking the buckle out but I have to reassure you that it wasn’t in any way intended to be swapped or things like that.
I took it off only to give it a try on a strap that I was trying to build….please keep in mind that if my intentions were to swap that in an unnoticeable way I would proceed with a lot of care and not damaging the screw head and even if I was careless enough to damage that screw head I could always change that with a new one from my own strap…..I even offered to buy the buckle from John(that being the only usable and trustworthy part of that strap).
As for the way that the strap looked when I sent it back that is only because the strap is completely rotten and if John wants he can just pull a little bit on that and he will see exactly what I’m talking about.
I wish from the bottom of my heart that John will admit that the strap was rotten and that he didn’t know about before the sale (I do tent to believe this).
I can understand his anger especially if he wasn’t aware of the issue but you should also understand my position.
Be honest and admit that none of you will let your beloved watch to un unsafe strap especially when going for a swim (that was the purpose of that kind of strap@watch).
I really think that if John really wants to clear the air on this issue the only think that he needs to do is to compare his high quality resolution pictures with the actual strap that is in possession now.
@John: please check for all those tiny details and you will see that I am not Lying.
I had a sleepless night thinking how can I make everyone see that I am not lying.
I even offered to donate the amount just to show everyone that I am innocent and it never crossed my mind to fraud anyone or lie to anyone.
I am NOT that kind of person and just because some of you had the chance to meet John and trade with him and not myself doesn’t mean that I am a despicable villain…Because I am not.
As I stated before* I can provide as many pictures needed with my actual strap that came in the box when I bought my PAM 00194 so you can see that that one is different from John’s ( starting with the stiches and finishing with the way it was used )
I will not continue on this subject unless I am asked to but I ask you all : PLEASE check both sides of the story before taking any sides.
After all ….all this can be considered a human mistake but for this to happen both parties have to be more that correct and transparent.
Once again : @ John PLEASE be a gentleman and take your time to compare what I asked you and share with us all the results.
I strongly believe that this is the only way to sort this out in a correct manner and the only to convince everyone once and for all.
I really want to continue to consider myself part of the TZ-UK brotherhood but , of course, if you don’t want me I will not insist any longer!
*
*
Thank you all *in advance and especially thank you John for doing the right thing.
*
Best regards to everyone,
*
Marius
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Last edited by marius; 14th August 2020 at 09:44. Reason: By mistake I called John Jack...very sorry for that
I’m sorry but you have damaged another members property after you asked eBay to return it. You owe the seller the original purchase price of the strap and an apology. I really hope the seller reports you to action fraud and eBay as you have admitted causing damage to their property.
Agree and if anything good comes of it every member on here should be made aware that dealing with this person could go badly wrong..
Fully agree.
+3
Wonder if you've stitched yourself up here by coming clean on the forum. If I was the seller, I'd be reporting this to Action Fraud and using your confession on the forum that you picked apart the watch strap and mashed up the buckle screws as evidence.
Mistakes were made and I've outlined my thoughts on this in the lengthy post above. But I wonder if the time is right to focus on reconciliation.
Emotions were high and this turned into conflict between 33JS and Marius. Rightly or wrongly, both parties clearly feel aggrieved and justified in their position. There's no winners in this, one party has a damaged strap and the other party is suffering a blow to their reputation.
I strongly suggest 33JS and Marius try to resolve 1-to-1 over inbox, with an open mind, and potentially reach a more favourable conclusion where the financial burden is shared. Likewise I think if the two members manage to reach a reasonably amicable conclusion it would be viewed positively by most members.
This is all that I ever wanted
Please all understand that is not a matter of money and also it's not a matter with tempering with other's property.
When I took of that buckle the strap was f.....ing mine....all paid for.
After that I realised that the kevlar and textile is ROTTEN.
How difficult it us to understand that ?
And the chronology of the pics might be wrong but I'm sure that soneone who knows how to read the info on a picture can see that (like Action Fraud on eBay for example).
I am looking forward for John to go to the Action Fraud but I am pretty sure he won't because now he knows the truth
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The fact is, you didn’t send it back in the condition it was send to you in.
Cheers..
Jase
There's an awful lot of unnecessary hand-wringing on this thread.
Seems like everyone - including the buyer - wants the seller to go to Action Fraud.
Is any more discussion needed?
Action Fraud doesn’t have capacity for this.
Rightly or wrongly eBay have rules for this and if the seller provides the link to the thread with buyers admission that he has damaged the item before returning it the outcome of the appeal may be different.
This.
I just don't get why marius doesn't understand. By messing with the thing and damaging the buckle and the strap, he pretty much forfeited his right to return the product. He could have just about got away with it if he had claimed the rip happened through no fault of his own and the strap just gave way, but by his own admission he picked at it and then removed the buckle, damaging a screw head in the process.
The only acceptable option as soon as he thought it was defective was to put it straight in the packet and return to the seller.
Is a H&V post in order or would this not be allowed as it was outside of SC?
33JS I think you would have had a different experience if you'd put this on SC and the same person bought it. My take is you were taken advantage of purely because the eBay rules allowed it. Then again, if the buyer had to actually pay for it they might not have bought it on SC.
If you didn’t like the goods then you should have simply returned them in the condition supplied.
As soon as you started picking it apart and butchering screws then you lost your right to return.
Why is so hard to understand that the timing was completly different.
Once again and for the last time:
I received the strap.
Very happy with it at the moment.
Took the buckle off for a new project.
Then....in a few days time I tried to mount the strap on may watch and it was then when I saw the rotten material.....
And....please cut the s..t with damaging the screw head...If you are really that anal about screw heads why don't you say nothing about the other screw that is also "damaged " and ....surprise,surprise....it was "damaged " before sending the strap to me .....his " brand new condition strap"....check the photos please.....
Do I hear comments?
Please don't be shy....
I kinda had enough of this posse attitude of so many of you..... without even listening or trying to understand.
P.S.: in case anyone was wondering if I was "lying"about that strap project also......I took some time to finish it....especially for you
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If you buy used goods then you should inspect on arrival.
I don’t know how you could remove the buckle without noticing any issues with the strap.
You also say it was rotten. Unlike most plastics kevlar does not melt: it's reasonably good at withstanding temperatures and decomposes only at about 450°C (850°F).
You admit you damaged the screw and picked at the strap, I don’t see how you can expect a full refund at that point.
H&V isn't just for SC transactions.
______
Jim.
The last time I had a chancer on eBay they tried a claim saying a BNWT t shirt, they thought wasn’t new. Weeks and weeks after delivery. I immediately filed an abuse of the quarantine returns for buyers (how ever it’s worded) and case was dismissed.
In this case I believe the same function would of worked if you had pictures of it before it was sent surely to Christ.
It is not the kevlar that is rotten but the inside material that the kevlar is glued on.....the kevlar is less than a mm thin.
And of course that you cannot see that until you are trying to mount it on the watch.....
Come on guys...really?
If you were in my shoes ....really wanting to keep the strap that you wanted and seeing that is falling apart at the slighest pressure.....what would you do?
Again........ it is NOT about the money....
No one is wondering why John is not willing to play along and tell the truth?
I can tell you: because now he is 100% convinced about the truth....
@John: please go to that Action Fraud and see what's going to happen
Maybe those guys don't have those horse googles handy.......and they will be able (once again) to see the simple truth.
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I know you are hooked up on all this 'timing' and order of what happened, but it doesn't matter...you should have thoroughly inspected the strap before doing anything with it. The moment you accidentally damaged the clasp screw was the moment you lost the the right to a refund. If you chose to remove the clasp, damage the screw and then the strap starts to fall apart, then it's just bad luck on your part for choosing to mess about with the clasp.
you should have inspected it right away (and sent it back right away) , you lost any chance of recourse as soon as you deemed it good enough to strip down for parts.
Precisely, succinct and reasonable.
At the moment you removed/ damaged the buckle you materially changed the value of the item and therefore should not have used the eBay refund process.
If you were disappointed with the strap then a timely notification with the seller should have taken place. If they failed to resolve to mutual satisfaction you can use the dispute process.
You damaged the item, you own it.
The phrase I remember from visiting French shops throughout my childhood...
Tu touche, tu casse, tu payes.
Buddy, you just won't listen. These posts are not helping you. WE HAVE heard what you have to say. We just DON'T AGREE.Why is so hard to understand that the timing was completly different.
Once again and for the last time:
I received the strap.
Very happy with it at the moment.
Took the buckle off for a new project.
Then....in a few days time I tried to mount the strap on may watch and it was then when I saw the rotten material.....
And....please cut the s..t with damaging the screw head...If you are really that anal about screw heads why don't you say nothing about the other screw that is also "damaged " and ....surprise,surprise....it was "damaged " before sending the strap to me .....his " brand new condition strap"....check the photos please.....
Do I hear comments?
Please don't be shy....
I kinda had enough of this posse attitude of so many of you..... without even listening or trying to understand.
P.S.: in case anyone was wondering if I was "lying"about that strap project also......I took some time to finish it....especially for you
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I think you're mistaking the right to return for 'not as described' with a warranty that guarantees the item while in use.
Why is so hard to understand that the timing was completly different.
Once again and for the last time:
I received the strap.
Very happy with it at the moment.
Took the buckle off for a new project.
Then....in a few days time I tried to mount the strap on may watch and it was then when I saw the rotten material.....
And....please cut the s..t with damaging the screw head...If you are really that anal about screw heads why don't you say nothing about the other screw that is also "damaged " and ....surprise,surprise....it was "damaged " before sending the strap to me .....his " brand new condition strap"....check the photos please.....
Do I hear comments?
Please don't be shy....
I kinda had enough of this posse attitude of so many of you..... without even listening or trying to understand.
P.S.: in case anyone was wondering if I was "lying"about that strap project also......I took some time to finish it....especially for you
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I thought the buckle didn't fit that strap?
The timing is irrelevant.
You either return the goods in the condition they arrived or you keep them.
To damage someones item and then return it expecting a full refund isn’t reasonable.
this, in a nutshell.
+1
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
+2
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+3
+4. The eBay platform doesn’t run on ‘reasonable’, it would appear, but this forum does. Despite his protestations, marius has revealed himself as an unreasonable villain.
One last time and I give up explaing and all this
Keep in mind that only myself and John know the truth.
Maybe an analogy will help some obtuse minds....
So....let's suppose that you're buying a pretty expensive watch that you really wanted advertised as brand new.
Nice shinny thing...You're over the moon with it.
Trying to wind the watch you realise that the movement is ... let's say completly rusted or full of mud or shit....whatever.
Here comes the funny part....
Trying to screw back the crown you damage the crown(the screw).....
What would you do?
Please try for once to be honest!!!
I'm done here!!!
Let's whomever will decide to decide but I can tell you that I was expecting more from some of you instead of this childish shit:" you touched it you own it"
Why no one is concerned about me and my hard earned money thrown away on a piece of (hidden) shit?
I did my part of offering to buy the buckle thinking that that will be a honorable thing to do to somehow make this shit a win win situation ...but it was ignored or misunderstood.
I don't really care anymore ...
I realised that when someone get stuck in something....not even common sense can bring him back.
I only wish you all those honest guys here that commented whithout trying to understand to encounter a similar context in the future.....when you will be 100% that you're wright and everyone else will call you in so manny nasty ways.
Over and out!
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