Seiko - get with the programme!

[TaketheCannoli]

Pins and collars? Pins and collars!

Sale prices aside, the Samurai is a £400 watch whose bracelet links use pins and collars. What's that about? It's 2020 FGS, surely a watch of that value should have, at best, screws and at worst, push-pins?

A simple bracelet adjustment took half an hour and resulted in a bent pin. I'll be writing to Mr Seiko asking why he persists with this antiquated system and could I possibly have a replacement pin please?

I love the watch (especially at £259) but not the bracelet system. Oh and the diver's extension is also the worst I've ever seen. I'd buy a Strapcode Hexad but the prices are insane these days.

Mini rant over.

[wileeeeeey]

Wait until you lose a collar, call the Seiko boutique to buy another, and they tell you it they don't sell spare collars but can send the watch away for you instead. Luckily in the end they found a spare one and didn't even charge.

I just broke a link on an expensive watch over tightening a screw and a new link is £50. Pins and collars would have saved me.

Pro tip: when putting the pins back in put a bank card on a table/chest of drawers and force it back through. My wife still doesn't know what their weird little indents on one of the bedside drawers is.

[TaketheCannoli]

Haha!

Wait until you lose a collar, call the Seiko boutique to buy another, and they tell you it they don't sell spare collars but can send the watch away for you instead. Luckily in the end they found a spare one and didn't even charge.

I just broke a link on an expensive watch over tightening a screw and a new link is £50. Pins and collars would have saved me.

Pro tip: when putting the pins back in put a bank card on a table/chest of drawers and force it back through. My wife still doesn't know what their weird little indents on one of the bedside drawers is.

[Papa Hotel]

As much of a PITA as the pin and collar system is, it's REALLY secure. Totally agree with the diver extension, such a crappy system.

[PawG]

My wife still doesn't know what their weird little indents on one of the bedside drawers is.

Hahaha!


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[hughtrimble]

Lots of the Grand Seiko line use pins and collars, and they're in the multiple thousands. In fact, don't Omega still use this method, or did they switch every single model to screws?
I don't know if it's because they're cheaping out, or whether it's because they're really not that hard to deal with for your average consumer with a cheap toolkit (especially those that go to ADs to do any adjustments)

[Wallasey Runner]

Pro tip: when putting the pins back in put a bank card on a table/chest of drawers and force it back through. My wife still doesn't know what their weird little indents on one of the bedside drawers is.

I always use the side of a metal loupe, completely flat and pushes them in fine. That said the wife's coasters have loads of little indentations in them from other messing around.

Pins and collars and double screw pins should be banned

[xellos99]

There was a pin / collar system on my Oris ProPilot if I remember.

Re-sizing it was more of a pain than Seikos.

My Armida with rivet bracelet was the biggest pig to deal with, vile system.

Loved the screw in ones the most on my watches, I have tiny screw drivers that fit nice.

[mondie]

I don't mind pis/collars. GS use them on their titanium bracelets. I find screws hard going with my middle aged eyesight.

[Backward point]

My Grand Seiko uses pins and infinitesimally small screws. Which cost £8. Per screw. I bought some more from the Grand Seiko Boutique, because a previous owner had damaged some of the screw heads, or somebody had damaged them on his behalf, and in the process discovered that there are two different sizes of these microscopically tiny things, one of which has a head which is larger by about one micron, and therefore won't fit. Luckily, the Grand Seiko Boutique were jolly sporting about the whole thing, and sent me some more.

I became so fed up with trying to replace the bloody screws that I got a professional watchmaker to do it for me. £8 each, and you can barely see the damned things with the naked eye.

You can't have a Grand Seiko with damaged screw heads on the bracelet, can you? What would the ninjas think?

[hughtrimble]

My Grand Seiko uses pins and infinitesimally small screws. Which cost £8. Per screw. I bought some more from the Grand Seiko Boutique, because a previous owner had damaged some of the screw heads, or somebody had damaged them on his behalf, and in the process discovered that there are two different sizes of these microscopically tiny things, one of which has a head which is larger by about one micron, and therefore won't fit. Luckily, the Grand Seiko Boutique were jolly sporting about the whole thing, and sent me some more.

I became so fed up with trying to replace the bloody screws that I got a professional watchmaker to do it for me. £8 each, and you can barely see the damned things with the naked eye.

You can't have a Grand Seiko with damaged screw heads on the bracelet, can you? What would the ninjas think?

Do the pins go into a blind hole, and the screw then seals the hole's entrance?

[MartinMW]

My Grand Seiko uses pins and infinitesimally small screws. Which cost £8. Per screw. I bought some more from the Grand Seiko Boutique, because a previous owner had damaged some of the screw heads, or somebody had damaged them on his behalf, and in the process discovered that there are two different sizes of these microscopically tiny things, one of which has a head which is larger by about one micron, and therefore won't fit. Luckily, the Grand Seiko Boutique were jolly sporting about the whole thing, and sent me some more.

I became so fed up with trying to replace the bloody screws that I got a professional watchmaker to do it for me. £8 each, and you can barely see the damned things with the naked eye.

You can't have a Grand Seiko with damaged screw heads on the bracelet, can you? What would the ninjas think?

Well you ain't seen nothing yet............ My brand new GS received today from a GS AD, i'm not naming them as the issue is in the process of being resolved........have a look at these and weep!!



















I am truly lost for words.............

Cheers
Martin

[Backward point]

Do the pins go into a blind hole, and the screw then seals the hole's entrance?

Yes.

[Backward point]

Well you ain't seen nothing yet............ My brand new GS received today from a GS AD, i'm not naming them as the issue is in the process of being resolved........have a look at these and weep!!



















I am truly lost for words.............

Cheers
Martin

Did they use a pickaxe to adjust the bracelet?

[hughtrimble]

Yes.

Very interesting! I always assumed the screws were lengthy enough to act as both the pin and securer. Cheers for the info.

[hughtrimble]

Well you ain't seen nothing yet............ My brand new GS received today from a GS AD, i'm not naming them as the issue is in the process of being resolved........have a look at these and weep!!

[A dogs dinner]

I am truly lost for words.............

Cheers
Martin

That is shocking for brand new. I'd understand if it was used and had been owned by multiple people, but not brand new! I'm guessing they sold it, someone returned it, and they didn't check it over properly. Hopefully they weren't trying to hide things.

[Backward point]

Very interesting! I always assumed the screws were lengthy enough to act as both the pin and securer. Cheers for the info.

Unfortunately not - they would be easier to replace if they were longer, but the poxy things are about the same lengthways as the width of the ridiculously small screw head.

I love everything else about the watch. The finish of every surface, the dial, applied markers, hands, and everything else is exquisite, and with the screws replaced it's absolutely perfect.

And I must praise the customer service from the Grand Seiko Boutique, who were never less than helpful, and friendly. Almost makes me want to go there and buy another one. Although I'll get them to adjust the bracelet for me.

[MartinMW]

I think i could have done a better job with a pickaxe!

Did they use a pickaxe to adjust the bracelet?

[MartinMW]

To be honest i don't think that is the case. I have very carefully inspected the watch head and its perfect........ i honestly believe that this damage was done while resizing the bracelet.

I know these screws are tiny, but i resized another one a week ago and managed it without drama. What i can't believe is how they have managed to completely obliterate at least 2 of the screw heads and managed to get so many marks on the polished sides of the links. I had a couple of minor slips resizing the other one and managed not to mark the surface which leads me to believe that the Zarartsu polished surface is quite 'hard' and 'durable'

Cheers
Martin

That is shocking for brand new. I'd understand if it was used and had been owned by multiple people, but not brand new! I'm guessing they sold it, someone returned it, and they didn't check it over properly. Hopefully they weren't trying to hide things.

[Glen Goyne]

As long as the collars go in the middle section it’s easy. Just take some time. Collar at the end is more annoying but also doable. Can’t remember which one had that, Seiko padi turtle perhaps?


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[ryanb741]

Patek Nautilus is pins and collars.....

[ryanb741]

Well you ain't seen nothing yet............ My brand new GS received today from a GS AD, i'm not naming them as the issue is in the process of being resolved........have a look at these and weep!!



















I am truly lost for words.............

Cheers
Martin

OMG that is the worst I've seen. How the hell did they allow that to go out? Bloody hell I hope you get it resolved properly with a discount and a new one

[wileeeeeey]

Well you ain't seen nothing yet............ My brand new GS received
I am truly lost for words.............

I saw the pictures first and thought someone had butchered their new bought in the sale from H Samuel Seiko. When I read GS I was shocked and when I went back to read again and saw AD I couldn't believe it!

[Wallasey Runner]

Could that be a returned watch that someone has buggered up and then returned and the staff haven't checked it properly. Did it look sealed etc when you got it?

[MartinMW]

OMG that is the worst I've seen. How the hell did they allow that to go out? Bloody hell I hope you get it resolved properly with a discount and a new one

I will find out tomorrow, hopefully, how they intend to resolve this and if they don’t resolve this to my reasonable satisfaction, then I will go public and also let Seiko know how their AD’s treat their watches.

I saw the pictures first and thought someone had butchered their new bought in the sale from H Samuel Seiko. When I read GS I was shocked and when I went back to read again and saw AD I couldn't believe it!

Yep GS AD, brand new watch.........it’s truly appalling.

Cheers
Martin

[MartinMW]

Could that be a returned watch that someone has buggered up and then returned and the staff haven't checked it properly. Did it look sealed etc when you got it?

It doesn’t look like that to be honest, the watch head and lugs are completely unmarked. It had been unwrapped as such as it had been sized by them, but when I spoke to them I asked if it was a brand new watch that hadn’t been previously sold and I was assured that it was and hadn’t.

Cheers
Martin

[S.L]

Patek Nautilus is pins and collars.....

At least the Seiko hacks.

[Omegamanic]

At least the Seiko hacks.

Yes, much higher quality movement.

[veil]

I will find out tomorrow, hopefully, how they intend to resolve this and if they don’t resolve this to my reasonable satisfaction, then I will go public and also let Seiko know how their AD’s treat their watches.

I hope they get you a brand new bracelet rather than offer to have the sides professionally refinished. I made a tiny scratch to a Seiko Tuna when pushing a pin back in and ended up re-polishing the side of the link with various grades of micromesh to get back to a mirror finish, but even though the bracelet is 317 stainless i think the sides must be plated with something as when micro-meshing it seemed to remove a slightly darker coloured layer or coat from the metal. Now its polished its near impossible to see, but if you ever need to replace a link it may be noticeable. I'm not sure if the coating makes the mirror finish easier to obtain or ads durability but there is a very minor colour variation. They have ragged the screws anyway so its probably better for them to replace the whole thing.

Good luck getting a good resolution!

[Lusty]

As long as the collars go in the middle section it’s easy. Just take some time. Collar at the end is more annoying but also doable. Can’t remember which one had that, Seiko padi turtle perhaps?


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This is the key to everything. Pin and collar is fine when the collars go in the middle, must be a nightmare when they're on the outside.

[PreacherCain]

I don't mind pis/collars. GS use them on their titanium bracelets. I find screws hard going with my middle aged eyesight.

Same here, pin-and-collar is OK for me as long as I take my time. I find a bracelet block to hold things still really helpful, along with small needle-nose pliers and a little plastic-faced hammer to tap the pins home.

I don't know whether it's related (perhaps concerns about steel bearing on titanium, and wear levels?), but Casio do the same as GS - pin-and-collar on their full metal titanium bracelets but small spring-bars on the steel ones.

[Itsguy]

Same here, pin-and-collar is OK for me as long as I take my time. I find a bracelet block to hold things still really helpful, along with small needle-nose pliers and a little plastic-faced hammer to tap the pins home.

I don't know whether it's related (perhaps concerns about steel bearing on titanium, and wear levels?), but Casio do the same as GS - pin-and-collar on their full metal titanium bracelets but small spring-bars on the steel ones.

It’s to do with the metal, titanium can fuse together (not sure that’s the right term) so screws could end up bonding into the bracelet. Someone can probably explain the correct terms for this but I remember reading something along these lines.

[walkerwek1958]

Without the basic tools, magnifiers, a decent work area with good lighting, and a reasonably high degree of dexterity, owners will struggle trying to size bracelets. Screws are often secured with loctite which makes them hard to remove, heat is essential to avoid screwheads getting chewed.

People struggle because they’re not used to working with small screws and parts, what looks like an easy task proves difficult. My advice is to always work on a tray to catch any screws/ tubes etc and have a small tray to put them in, its a mistake to leave any part free to roll around. A piece of blu- tac will help in picking up small screws or tubes, Rodico is what you should use but people won’t have that to hand. Tweezers help, but if used wrongly the screws will fly out and get lost.

A useful tool is a set of brass- faced pliers, they won’t mark steel so they’re ideal for pulling partly- removed pins out.

The alternative is to take the watch to your friendly local jeweller and pay for adjustment, but that’s easier said than done in many areas thesedays.

[PreacherCain]

The alternative is to take the watch to your friendly local jeweller and pay for adjustment, but that’s easier said than done in many areas thesedays.

And judging by the state of the GS bracelet pictured above, not without its own element of risk!

[RobDad]

I sized my own Samurai bracelet with no issue at all - however, to be fair, only after watching a you tube video years ago to learn how to adjust the Seiko Monster bracelet which uses the same system. After struggling the first time I got the knack (and the right tools for the job - in my case a perfectly sized pusher that slid the pins out and ‘collected’ the collets) and from then on it was easy, and none of the links ever loosened or showed any danger of coming apart


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[Mitch]

I prefer pins and collars for a bracelet, it is a more secure system than friction pins or screws.

Screws are not a good thing for bracelets, they can work loose if not tightened properly or do not have some sort of adhesive on them. They are easily marked and if they have adhesive on them can become stuck and then can be badly damaged in attempting to remove them.



Mitch

[IAmATeaf]

Did they use a pickaxe to adjust the bracelet?

Am impact driver me thinks ?

[Shuggy#1]

Pin & collar system is fine once you get the hang of it. List count of the number of times I've done it. Definitely worthwhile getting some tools if your planning on doing a lot of strap adjustments.

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[steppy]

It doesn’t look like that to be honest, the watch head and lugs are completely unmarked. It had been unwrapped as such as it had been sized by them, but when I spoke to them I asked if it was a brand new watch that hadn’t been previously sold and I was assured that it was and hadn’t.

Cheers
Martin

Did you manage to get a refund or replacement?

[MartinMW]

Did you manage to get a refund or replacement?

Hi All

First of all an apology to to the OP for my high jacking of this thread, in my haste it just seemed like the right place to put this, especially as ruined GS screw heads had come up in the conversation.

Anyway, as of this morning the situation has been resolved to my satisfaction and in the following manner.

The watch in question is a new SBGN 005. We all know from the pictures what the damage to the bracelet was but after very close inspection of the watch head I was satisfied that there was/is not damaged. A brand new bracelet is being sent to me for me to adjust and fit. I will send the old bracelet back to them. I have also agreed other compensation with them, namely a cash sum and a battery change and reseal to be carried out by Seiko.

The dealer has behaved very professionally throughout the process and I never felt once that they didn’t have resolution to my satisfaction as their primary goal.

Cheers
Martin

[Backward point]

Hi All

First of all an apology to to the OP for my high jacking of this thread, in my haste it just seemed like the right place to put this, especially as ruined GS screw heads had come up in the conversation.

Anyway, as of this morning the situation has been resolved to my satisfaction and in the following manner.

The watch in question is a new SBGN 005. We all know from the pictures what the damage to the bracelet was but after very close inspection of the watch head I was satisfied that there was/is now damage. A brand new bracelet is being sent to me for me to adjust and fit. I will send the old bracelet back to them. I have also agreed other compensation with them, namely a cash sum and a battery change and reseal to be carried out by Seiko.

The dealer has behaved very professionally throughout the process and I never felt once that they didn’t have resolution to my satisfaction as their primary goal.


Cheers
Martin

A good result, well done. Good luck sizing the bracelet!

[MartinMW]

A good result, well done. Good luck sizing the bracelet!

Thanks. I have adjusted one previously and with a little bit of patience, care and the correct screwdriver (most important) it is achievable without damage.

After reading another post, quite some time ago, I actually modified one of my screw drivers on a wet stone so it fitted the screw head as tightly as possible. Along with the minute size of the actual screw the other problem is that the slot on the screw head is proportionally quite wide and without filing down the screw driver so it is effectively thicker at the tip, it would be a ‘sloppy’ fit in the screw head.

Cheers
Martin

[notenoughwrists]

Just added a link into my approx. £6k Grand Seiko, with pin and collar bracelet...

I’ve drank some Red and was rushed - but all well.
Screws have, for me, been a mixed bag. Even with care and without Red wine, I have had some horrors and some fine.

Pin and collar feel a bit naff but work well.

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[dkpw]

On a side note, about Seiko updating things and providing better service.

How about regulating your watches before shipping them?

[TaketheCannoli]

They could do that but the prices would increase.

Seiko UK is sending me new pins.

On a side note, about Seiko updating things and providing better service.

How about regulating your watches before shipping them?

[zenius]

What about not having asigned crown on watches costing more than £1000?

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[mycroft]

I owned three 1st generation Seiko Monsters, all of which of course had pin and collar bracelets. The first time I took out a link the collar flew across the room and vanished, never to be seen again! I got better at it after that and never repeated the same mistake, but it’s certainly not the easiest arrangement.

Mind you, I have a Doxa with double ended screws... these require a screwdriver in each end and a third arm (or an understanding spouse). Complete idiocy.

Simon

[TaketheCannoli]

EDIT - just watched a YouTube video and it looks so easy so it's clearly just me :(

OMAFG!!!!
The Samurai was a doddle compared to the Sumo! One hour and twenty minutes to remove four links. Three of the pins and collars in the bracelet still have some play in them so I can’t have any confidence in the bracelet when wearing.

The Samurai collars go in the middle of the link which makes sense but the Sumo collars go into one end which makes no sense at all as they're always at risk of coming out. Securing them in the mid-link feels really secure but this doesn't feel secure at all.

£700+ for a watch that has this link system is a p*ss-take.

[wileeeeeey]

Bought a Sumo today and it has the worst pins and collars I've ever seen on a Seiko.

On the MM200 there is a shoulder for the collar to pop into and it's easy once you know. On the Sumo there is no shoulder and you have to balance it all and push from both ends. What an absolute wind up.

I think we watched the same YouTube video btw.

[M1011]

Seiko bracelets are very consistent.... consistently awful! When buying a Seiko I always factor in the need for an aftermarket StrapCode bracelet or decent leather strap. They definitely cut corners in that department.

I haven't got experience with top level Seiko's to be fair, so I'm really just alluding to the sub-£1,000 stuff.

Hi All

First of all an apology to to the OP for my high jacking of this thread, in my haste it just seemed like the right place to put this, especially as ruined GS screw heads had come up in the conversation.

Anyway, as of this morning the situation has been resolved to my satisfaction and in the following manner.

The watch in question is a new SBGN 005. We all know from the pictures what the damage to the bracelet was but after very close inspection of the watch head I was satisfied that there was/is not damaged. A brand new bracelet is being sent to me for me to adjust and fit. I will send the old bracelet back to them. I have also agreed other compensation with them, namely a cash sum and a battery change and reseal to be carried out by Seiko.

The dealer has behaved very professionally throughout the process and I never felt once that they didn’t have resolution to my satisfaction as their primary goal.

Cheers
Martin

Glad they sorted that out for you, the images were shocking. Sounds like a good resolution though.

I have two watches due from an AD in the next 1-2 months and this has me wondering whether to get them to size it or to do it myself... would be devastated if something like this happened! I always do my own watch sizing, strap changes etc for more affordable watches without issue, but for expensive stuff I'm more nervous. When the Rolex AD was sizing a bracelet for me before they had to heat it up to release it or something like that... not sure if that'd be the same for Tudor and Zenith