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Thread: Another stabbing incident...

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Most of my grandparents generation grew up fighting to the bitter death in ww1 or ww2. A daily struggle of surviving grenade attacks, mustard gas, foot rot, best friends dying, and on accessions staring their combatant in the face in mortal hand to hand combat. Doesnít really compare to to a bit of fortnite or CoD. Didnít see them coming home and stabbing each other.

    The cause of teenage stabbings is multivariate but ultimately values are best instilled in children by parents, and ultimately an individual needs to be held responsible for their actions.
    Agreed, the reasons are many, but too much exposure to violence in the virtual world is definitely a player, no pun intended.
    The reason the war generations didn't come home stabbing each other is because they had experienced the horror for real, and not make believe on a video screen. It has long been known that too much time spent in an artificial environment, such as a computer game blurs the line between pretend and reality. I think this was first recognised in the aftermath of the Tenerife air disaster. It was decided by the board that one of the many factors leading to the crash was Captain Van Zanten's many hours spent in the flight simulator supervising trainee pilots influenced him to take risks in real life he would not have done without the hundreds of hours spent in an artificial world.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    Agreed, the reasons are many, but too much exposure to violence in the virtual world is definitely a player, no pun intended.
    The reason the war generations didn't come home stabbing each other is because they had experienced the horror for real, and not make believe on a video screen. It has long been known that too much time spent in an artificial environment, such as a computer game blurs the line between pretend and reality. I think this was first recognised in the aftermath of the Tenerife air disaster. It was decided by the board that one of the many factors leading to the crash was Captain Van Zanten's many hours spent in the flight simulator supervising trainee pilots influenced him to take risks in real life he would not have done without the hundreds of hours spent in an artificial world.
    Possibly, but I believe all research shows there isnít a correlation between violent movies and video games and committing crimes. In the 80s there was a real fear that movies like Nightmare and Elm Street etc was causing violence.

    Again, all kids play violent games these days. So why do some groups commit violence, it would appear on the face of it violent games arenít the causal factor.

    Also, experiencing violence would likely be the causal factor for being violent.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Also, experiencing violence would likely be the causal factor for being violent.
    Very true. Carrying a knife out of fear of being attacked with a knife makes that outcome all the more likely.

  4. #54
    I believe a contributor to knife crime amongst the younger population can be attributed to the toxic environments created by austerity. Social deprivation, reduction in services for young people (less youth services, youth centres, etc). Less police on the streets means less protection for victims, who in turn feel the need to protect themselves by carrying a weapon.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Well you could make it illegal to carry a fixed blade knife, or locking knife, or folding knife with a cutting edge longer than 3 inches on the streets. But they already have.

    Unfortunately you can't legislate against idiots/lunatics/terrorists.
    Yeah they have brought in laws, I have four legal knives I rotate as my edc. but even the law around this is odd. Iíve an illegal knife as I have in my credit card wallet a Swiss card. That contains a tiny fixed blade. Thatís illegal. Also itís 3Ē cutting edge, so some knives with pronounced up curves or tanto tips can exceed 3Ē cutting edge.
    Iím lucky I was taught by my late father how to use a knife. Itís a tool not a weapon. I do think knife crime amongst youngsters seems to be glorified.


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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    I believe a contributor to knife crime amongst the younger population can be attributed to the toxic environments created by austerity. Social deprivation, reduction in services for young people (less youth services, youth centres, etc). Less police on the streets means less protection for victims, who in turn feel the need to protect themselves by carrying a weapon.

    R
    Possibly, but it has to be more than just this. Children today have more than ever before. Compare a 1850s,1920s, 1980s child to one of today.

    I agree that more needs to be put into education and services. But, not at the expense of good parenting. The state can support vulnerable children but parenting canít be outsourced on a wider level. Which unfortunately some people expect and we seem to be moving to.

    My view would be to make any kind of work seriously worthwhile. Large minimum wage increase, give working families some pride back and the resources to raise their own
    Children in the way they see fit.

    I work with children and the low expectations some professionals have for them is terrifying.

  7. #57
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    I believe a contributor to knife crime amongst the younger population can be attributed to the toxic environments created by austerity. Social deprivation, reduction in services for young people (less youth services, youth centres, etc). Less police on the streets means less protection for victims, who in turn feel the need to protect themselves by carrying a weapon.

    R
    I grew up on a council estate, we didn't have "youth services, youth centres etc." and it was very working class. In the 1960s we didn't have much in the way of luxuries and there was no reduction in services for young people, mainly because there weren't any to speak of. It wasn't unusual for one or more of us to be carrying 'sheath knives' as they were called then. I can't remember anyone being stabbed in the street.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Possibly, but it has to be more than just this. Children today have more than ever before. Compare a 1850s,1920s, 1980s child to one of today.
    More material things, yes.

    I agree that more needs to be put into education and services. But, not at the expense of good parenting.
    Ideally both.

    The state can support vulnerable children but parenting canít be outsourced on a wider level.
    The problem today is that there are more vulnerable children and less resources to support them.

    Which unfortunately some people expect and we seem to be moving to.

    My view would be to make any kind of work seriously worthwhile. Large minimum wage increase, give working families some pride back and the resources to raise their own
    Children in the way they see fit.
    That would certainly help improve things, but I for one cannot see much likelihood of the current status quo changing for the poorer sector of our society.

    I work with children and the low expectations some professionals have for them is terrifying.
    Could you expand on which professionals and what expectations you are referring to here?
    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    I grew up on a council estate, we didn't have "youth services, youth centres etc." and it was very working class. In the 1960s we didn't have much in the way of luxuries and there was no reduction in services for young people, mainly because there weren't any to speak of. It wasn't unusual for one or more of us to be carrying 'sheath knives' as they were called then. I can't remember anyone being stabbed in the street.
    That was then, this is now.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    That was then, this is now.

    R
    So on the assumption peoples brains haven't evolved greatly in the last fifty years, the main changes are social media, youtube and its ilk, violent computer games, and gangsta culture, as degradration and poverty have basically always existed as OOK alluded to. But it was without this level of violent crime, although some was always present back then.
    The graphic violence, including real footage, and sex that today's youngsters have seen would have truly boggled our minds back then, it must have an affect on a vulnerable youth today.
    The other massive change is of course the break down of the family unit, with its role models gone, replaced by absent fathers and various combinations of half siblings.
    Last edited by Ruggertech; 6th June 2021 at 09:13.

  11. #61
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    That was then, this is now.

    R
    Yes. I suppose I was lucky as well in that my father was hardworking and always there as a role model as well. Something the state cannot provide.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  12. #62

  13. #63
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    Another stabbing incident...

    But surely material things are linked to deprivation and austerity. There werenít more youth clubs and services for children 50 or 100 years ago. Possibly the difference is the tome parents had to be with children?

    So why are there more vulnerable children today, is it values instilled at home, definitions? When 15 year olds were volunteering to sign up to fight in WW1 they were pretty vulnerable then, and thereís plenty of instances like that.

    Some parents, from all classes donít seem to have the desire to put the time in. middle classes are the worst sometimes, they know their rights and will ring a school dry through complaints etc. They had a life before of yoga and travel and they donít think it should change.

    Unfortunately professionals donít have the time or buy in a parent has. I listen to my children, but if theyíre taking the piss I make sure they do their homework, go to rugby, practice violin etc. I work in a school and I firmly believe the best thing we can do is provide life opportunities. The 2015 SEND Code of Practice really tried to address this but it hasnít worked.

    I was speaking to an Educational Psychologist and she firmly believes that there is no bad behaviour, itís just communication, theyíre letting you know theyíre unhappy (which is certainly true in some but not all cases). But after 11 years of school what if this Ďcommunicationí hasnít stopped.

  14. #64

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    But surely material things are linked to deprivation and austerity. There werenít more youth clubs and services for children 50 or 100 years ago.
    In the latest stats I could find (2019):

    £422.3m: reduction in spending on services for young people in last six years
    3,500: number of youth service jobs lost (since 2010)
    600: number of youth centres closed (since 2010)
    130,000: number of places in youth centres eliminated (since 2010)
    And it has only worsened since 2019 I'd imagine.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Yes. I suppose I was lucky as well in that my father was hardworking and always there as a role model as well. Something the state cannot provide.
    I regard myself as fortunate too, albeit that my father was working away for long periods during my formative years. But society now is very different, less 2-parent families, mothers working away from the home, less respect for social authority, the explosion of social media, less police on the streets...


    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  17. #67
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    The Govenment have neglected the UK people in favour of their favourite past time. Middle east conflicts that have wasted tens of billions.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    The Govenment have neglected the UK people in favour of their favourite past time. Middle east conflicts that have wasted tens of billions.

    Thatís not altogether true. They look after their own. Unfortunately their own is limited to party donors, asset strippers and a motley collection of chancers and spivs.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    In the latest stats I could find (2019):


    And it has only worsened since 2019 I'd imagine.

    R
    But even with that reduction itís in real times more than say 1950, thatís the point. Iím sure they help but austerity is far from the root cause.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    In the latest stats I could find (2019):


    And it has only worsened since 2019 I'd imagine.

    R
    Also worth looking at the stats for black youth unemployment.

  21. #71
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    I regard myself as fortunate too, albeit that my father was working away for long periods during my formative years. But society now is very different, less 2-parent families, mothers working away from the home, less respect for social authority, the explosion of social media, less police on the streets...


    R
    Many of the things you mention we were told didn't have adverse effects on children. The idea that 2-parent families and mothers staying in the home, was better for childrens social and educational development, was almost blasphemous. I still maintain it all begins in the home. It's the parents responsibility to ensure their children grow up to be law abiding, well adjusted members of society. Not the schools or social services and certainly not the government.

    I know you can't compare the USA directly with the UK but I still think this guy talks sense.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0fz9b86Th8
    Last edited by oldoakknives; 6th June 2021 at 18:28.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    But even with that reduction itís in real times more than say 1950, thatís the point. Iím sure they help but austerity is far from the root cause.
    So what would you say is the root cause?

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Many of the things you mention we were told didn't have adverse effects on children. The idea that 2-parent families and mothers staying in the home, was better for childrens social and educational development, was almost blasphemous. I still maintain it all begins in the home. It's the parents responsibility to ensure their children grow up to be law abiding, well adjusted members of society. Not the schools or social services and certainly not the government.
    I entirely agree with you. However, society today has more single-parent families and furthermore the single parent is more likely to be the mother.

    R
    Last edited by ralphy; 6th June 2021 at 18:42.
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    Also worth looking at the stats for black youth unemployment.
    Without looking Iím sure the rates will be significantly higher than for white youth unemployment.
    The big question of course is why that is?
    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Without looking Iím sure the rates will be significantly higher than for white youth unemployment.
    The big question of course is why that is?
    R
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...on-riots-covid

    Your question is key. Why, and how can it be remedied?

  26. #76
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    Another stabbing incident...

    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    So what would you say is the root cause?

    R
    Not a clue, I think itís a combination of many things though! I think family break down is a factor though, parents not realising having kids is hard work and life changing. I guess 50 years ago there wasnít much opportunity cost for parents with regards to leisure time. No internet, SM, gyms, holidays etc. There was more time to spend with their kids

    In some ways low paid jobs are harder these days, I appreciate mining was hard but it was vocation people could be proud of.

    Really, who knows, I just donít think we can pin it on one thing.

  27. #77
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    Sorry but that's absolute garbage and I hate that sorry excuse. Generations of people fought in conflicts and wars where they've seen unimaginable horrors and I imagine that can desensitise people however these same people didn't and don't decide to carry knives and go out stabbing people. The answer lies firmly at the doors of the parents.

    You can live on the most drug and violence-ridden estate in the sh*tiest town and still be a law-abiding, respectful and decent member of the population if you're shown how to do that. It starts in the home....every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigvic View Post
    Many people now have grown up on games like GTA, Assassin's Creed, watched lots of music videos downloaded hundreds of ultra violent movies, it's no wonder Generation Z are desensitised to violence and think nothing of carrying a knife.

  28. #78
    I think it starts in the home and then the lack social care ensures the problems are never ending. I wonder how many of the perpetrators of stabbing come from single parent families or where there is no bread winner? I donít think itís difficult to see why many young men turn to gang culture, drugs and crime, the problem then is self perpetuating.

  29. #79
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Most single parent families will be less financially secure than two parent families. Most single parent families will have no father present.
    So the result is children in families struggling financially, with no father to be a role model. By the time they come to the attention of social services or the courts itís too late.


    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    I think it starts in the home and then the lack social care ensures the problems are never ending. I wonder how many of the perpetrators of stabbing come from single parent families or where there is no bread winner? I donít think itís difficult to see why many young men turn to gang culture, drugs and crime, the problem then is self perpetuating.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  30. #80
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
    Sorry but that's absolute garbage and I hate that sorry excuse. Generations of people fought in conflicts and wars where they've seen unimaginable horrors and I imagine that can desensitise people however these same people didn't and don't decide to carry knives and go out stabbing people. The answer lies firmly at the doors of the parents.

    You can live on the most drug and violence-ridden estate in the sh*tiest town and still be a law-abiding, respectful and decent member of the population if you're shown how to do that. It starts in the home....every time.
    Agree with this.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Really, who knows, I just donít think we can pin it on one thing.
    Neither do I.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
    Sorry but that's absolute garbage and I hate that sorry excuse. Generations of people fought in conflicts and wars where they've seen unimaginable horrors and I imagine that can desensitise people however these same people didn't and don't decide to carry knives and go out stabbing people. The answer lies firmly at the doors of the parents.

    You can live on the most drug and violence-ridden estate in the sh*tiest town and still be a law-abiding, respectful and decent member of the population if you're shown how to do that. It starts in the home....every time.
    Sorry but I disagree. It's a nature/nurture mix IMO.

    My mum ran away from my dad before I was one and we found shelter in a woman's refuse before getting a council flat in quite a grim estate. Three boys and the divorced Irish single parent stigma of the 80's and 90's, worse than being Muslim after 9/11 once you add in free school meals and still wearing shorts from last term when it's December. We did a flat swap to a place half the size through the council to not be on an estate and lucked out with a good area. If we didn't get out of that estate my life would be completely different.

    My mum worked three jobs and was never around. Even in the weekends she would just be in bed while we'd be out for 12 hours per day on bikes with 50p each in our pockets. We saw her for an hour or two per day and had understanding neighbours. If any of our neighbours had reported us we would have all been thrown into care, no question. This was threatened often by my mum and by some of the neighbours when we were getting too out of hand.

    There's a reason they're called your formative years, they form who you are. Luckily mine were spent making friends with local kids who weren't from council estates, expelled from school, from homes with parents not on drugs. My mum being around or not wouldn't have made a difference so if that's true how can it all start at home?

    I hate the term "product of my environment" but it's true more than its false. I was lucky to be taken out of an awful environment and dropped into a small council flat (9 flats, small block) in a very good part of the borough and am a product of that better environment instead.

    "You can live on the most drug and violence-ridden estate in the sh*tiest town and still be a law-abiding, respectful and decent member of the population"

    You're right, you can. It just isn't likely.

  33. #83
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    .....

    Really, who knows, I just donít think we can pin it on one thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Neither do I.

    R
    I agree that there is probably more than one reason for knife crime.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  34. #84
    Master Rod's Avatar
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    And it goes on... every day occurrence now
    https://news.sky.com/story/two-teena...luton-12328295

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