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Thread: Replacement Euro Cylinder Locks

  1. #1
    Master j0hnbarker's Avatar
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    Replacement Euro Cylinder Locks

    Evening All

    Moving on Friday and want to replace the Euro Cylinders on the property I’m buying.

    When we moved here 3 years ago I had a locksmith replace them all with Ultions keyed off the same key.

    New locksmith isn’t keen on Ultion and is pushing CISA cylinders. Any experience? They’re apparently rated the same...

    Thanks in advance,

  2. #2
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    Are they the same kind of cost ?

  3. #3
    Ultion aren't the be all and end all, but most locks are flawed one way or another.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcMdf5aR7JY

  4. #4
    Grand Master Rod's Avatar
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  5. #5
    Master
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    Avocet ABS here too, been flawless for several years. They have a weak point in the design that means if they're snapped, the lock jams.

  6. #6
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    Another recommendation for Avocet ABS Anti Snap. Had them keyed alike also.

    I remember doing a lot of research and ended up there n these after watching endless YouTube videos of various locksmiths ‘cracking’ other recommended locks. Cheers can’t remember his name and I no longer have the link, but I do remember watching a video of a well renowned Australian locksmith who basically said these were the best (this was a couple of years ago though)

    As mentioned above, if snapped, they can/will jam the lock........but then again, IMO that’s a positive, as when other so called anti snap locks are snapped, the door can be opened.

    Cheers
    Martin

  7. #7
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    All mine replaced with ABS Avocet, keyed alike and also available with thumb turn.

    The Cisa are perfectly good too, however Am told that they can be replicated by any locksmith as a code is not needed.

    I was also adviced the eurolock from Evva, an austrian firm, but decided for the ABS because of the price and overall quality.
    Last edited by Franco; 24th June 2020 at 08:45.

  8. #8
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    I’ve got the Avocet ABS locks as well, fitted when my neighbour was a locksmith. He saw me fitting them, and I let him borrow one to have a go at picking, as they were new to market back then.

    He did manage it in the end, but that was with the lock on a table and being able to rotate it to whatever position he liked, something you couldn’t do with it fitted to a door.

    Still, most scrotes will use brute force attacks but they resist that well also. It’s important to get the right size, so that the barrel is flush with the handle surface. You can get reinforced handles too.

    No idea if other locks have caught up though, or they are more easy to pick now.

  9. #9
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    As we are moving into new house , this thread is of interest. Re picking locks, aside from James bond and fictional heroes, most burglars are opportunists and use brute force. There is no delicacy of sat in full view picking the lock.

    Key point seems to be as mentioned above buy the right size, locks are Centred by the securing screw but the distance to the front ( outside ) and inside face can vary.

    Steve

  10. #10
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Avocet ABS locks here too, very impressed with them.

  11. #11
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Those Avocet locks will stop the average scrote with a pair of water pump pliers, but there's a no-skill tool for bypassing them:

    https://www.ukbumpkeys.com/products/...s-3-star-locks

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Those Avocet locks will stop the average scrote with a pair of water pump pliers, but there's a no-skill tool for bypassing them:

    https://www.ukbumpkeys.com/products/...s-3-star-locks
    Not quite a no-skill tool going on a couple of the reviews!

    I’m reassured that your average scrote won’t be carrying every specialist tool required for any lock they encounter, which is why most of them carry a claw hammer, screwdriver and pump pliers.

    I got mine fitted to resist the snapping/brute force entry, my locksmith neighbour proved that even 10yrs ago they could be picked.
    Last edited by Tooks; 24th June 2020 at 09:48.

  13. #13
    Craftsman
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    We have ABS Avocet and i swapped them on the rental property too , i would expect the current owners of the house would let you pops the locks out to measure them in their presence to pre order them as its a 2 minute job at most

  14. #14
    What are peoples thought on internal thumb turn ones from a security point of view? Wife wants to add them to make it easier for the kids to get out in an emergency, but i'm concerned they could be accessed by a scrote though the letter box somehow (memories of being a kid and my best mate at school used to get into his house using a stick kept next to the door and a hand through the letterbox)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighty View Post
    What are peoples thought on internal thumb turn ones from a security point of view? Wife wants to add them to make it easier for the kids to get out in an emergency, but i'm concerned they could be accessed by a scrote though the letter box somehow (memories of being a kid and my best mate at school used to get into his house using a stick kept next to the door and a hand through the letterbox)
    You have to push in against a spring to rotate the Avocet ones.

    I have them, and have no concerns.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighty View Post
    What are peoples thought on internal thumb turn ones from a security point of view? Wife wants to add them to make it easier for the kids to get out in an emergency, but i'm concerned they could be accessed by a scrote though the letter box somehow (memories of being a kid and my best mate at school used to get into his house using a stick kept next to the door and a hand through the letterbox)
    I think it would depend on the door for me.

    Solid, then no problem, but I’d be less inclined to fit them if there was a window that could be smashed and an arm put through to turn the lock for example.

  17. #17
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    In general you're better off concentrating on upgrading the handle to a PAS handle - like the Hoppe ones. They provide more protection against the most likely forms of brute force attack. Nobody bothers to pick locks so any decent snap proof lock with anti-drill pins will suffice.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    I think it would depend on the door for me.

    Solid, then no problem, but I’d be less inclined to fit them if there was a window that could be smashed and an arm put through to turn the lock for example.
    There are simple tools designed to go through the letter box which then turn the thumb turn (https://www.etsy.com/listing/4854572...h-turning-tool). But will the intruder carry one? Who knows but probably not!

    That being said, I'd go with one you have to interact with in another way in addition to the turn, such as the press in type described by demonloop, if you want a thumb turn, or get something along the lines of this to prevent accidental/nefarious turning: http://www.hudsonlock.com/deadbolt-secure.html It's for deadbolts, but ought to work with thumb turns given it's simply a physical block to prevent it from turning.
    Last edited by hughtrimble; 24th June 2020 at 13:08.

  19. #19
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    I think it would depend on the door for me.

    Solid, then no problem, but I’d be less inclined to fit them if there was a window that could be smashed and an arm put through to turn the lock for example.
    The way it was explained to me was, if someone breaks a window they’re coming in no matter what locks you have.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    The way it was explained to me was, if someone breaks a window they’re coming in no matter what locks you have.
    Only if it’s big enough to climb through, many door designs have a small window you could get at least an arm through.

    But yes, if somebody wants in, they’re coming in, either by smashing the door, melting it if it’s plastic, or breaking a proper window and climbing through.

  21. #21
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Those Avocet locks will stop the average scrote with a pair of water pump pliers, but there's a no-skill tool for bypassing them:

    https://www.ukbumpkeys.com/products/...s-3-star-locks
    I emailed Avocet about that tool when I was first aware of it in 2016, and included a link to the video I'd found.

    Their reply was

    Good Afternoon Duncan,
    In regards to your email about the picking tool, we have run many tests in our on-site test lab and local locksmiths to see how effective the actual tool is.
    We found that in some cases the blade part snapped inside the barrel, the video which you have attached in your email is not set in a real life situation.
    As you can see the locksmith already knows which position the cylinder is in, due to the key card being show which then enables him to select the correct blade.
    Also what you don’t see is that the locksmith isn’t using a complete cylinder and has pins missing which also makes it look very easy to pick.
    If this was a real life situation it would take someone with Locksmith knowledge to be able to determine the position of the barrel that quickly.
    When our local locksmiths tested this it took them 15-20 minutes to find the correct position, it would take a burglar a lot longer to do this.
    which is why the most common form of breaking into someone’s home is Lock Snapping.
    Please let me know if you have any more queries regards this matter
    Many thanks


    I was debating whether to change my locks again but in light of the above I didn't bother and needless to say haven't had any issues to date.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    You have to push in against a spring to rotate the Avocet ones.

    I have them, and have no concerns.
    I have an Avocet thumb turn on my front door but wouldn’t really recommend them. I’m not worried about burglars as my letter box is at the bottom of the door and you have to push and turn the lock.
    The trouble is they don’t return to the usual position after turning and if you don’t manually return it before closing your door you can’t get back in your own house even with your key.

  23. #23
    Master j0hnbarker's Avatar
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    Thanks All

    Locksmith is coming on Sat so I’ll have a chat about Avocet too.

  24. #24
    Master
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    Whose locks are fitted upside down, Ultion video??

  25. #25
    Master
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    I think the keys have a magnet which pulls down a pin making it even harder to pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    I emailed Avocet about that tool when I was first aware of it in 2016, and included a link to the video I'd found.

    Their reply was

    Good Afternoon Duncan,
    In regards to your email about the picking tool, we have run many tests in our on-site test lab and local locksmiths to see how effective the actual tool is.
    We found that in some cases the blade part snapped inside the barrel, the video which you have attached in your email is not set in a real life situation.
    As you can see the locksmith already knows which position the cylinder is in, due to the key card being show which then enables him to select the correct blade.
    Also what you don’t see is that the locksmith isn’t using a complete cylinder and has pins missing which also makes it look very easy to pick.
    If this was a real life situation it would take someone with Locksmith knowledge to be able to determine the position of the barrel that quickly.
    When our local locksmiths tested this it took them 15-20 minutes to find the correct position, it would take a burglar a lot longer to do this.
    which is why the most common form of breaking into someone’s home is Lock Snapping.
    Please let me know if you have any more queries regards this matter
    Many thanks


    I was debating whether to change my locks again but in light of the above I didn't bother and needless to say haven't had any issues to date.

  26. #26
    Master mondie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    I have an Avocet thumb turn on my front door but wouldn’t really recommend them. I’m not worried about burglars as my letter box is at the bottom of the door and you have to push and turn the lock.
    The trouble is they don’t return to the usual position after turning and if you don’t manually return it before closing your door you can’t get back in your own house even with your key.
    I need to upgrade the locks in our place so this and the similar thread from last week have been timely and interesting. On one of the lock sites, I read that Avocet have dropped the push to turn feature and I wondered why, perhaps it's because of the flaw you mention.

    Still undecided on the thumb turn, I don't like the idea of leaving keys in doors but perhaps that is the lesser risk vs scum smashing the glass and turning the thumb latch. When I was younger I had an attempted break-in while I was out, the glass in the door was smashed but the door was deadlocked so they couldn't get in.

  27. #27
    Master j0hnbarker's Avatar
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    Just to update the thread...


    Chatted to the locksmith and eventually went with the Ultions. Nice fat key and the reassurance that no dickhead is coming along with a pair of mole grips and snapping my locks.

    Police monitored alarm goes in this week too and I shall be happy then that the new house is as secure as I can make it within reason.

    The old cylinders were so cheap and nasty in comparison. I wonder why people scrimp on locks?

  28. #28
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    I was also adviced the eurolock from Evva, an austrian firm
    I'd pick Evva any day. If ABS or Ultion were the Seiko of lock cylinders, then Evva would be Grand Seiko. All three brands use a locking cam (very secure) in their anti-snap cylinders, but Evva's will be significantly higher quality and more reliable.

    Avocet ABS and Ultion are brilliant at marketing and have well-designed lock cylinders, but buy their products from another company in Taiwan. Evva is one of the world's most renowned lock manufacturers, and it makes everything in-house in Austria.

    Evva EPS 3-star euro cylinders

  29. #29
    Master
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    Above a certain (pretty low) point it's a waste of time arguing about which lock is better that another; as long as it snaps safe & drill resistant then that's about all you need.

    Picking locks just isn't how the overwhelming majority of burglaries happen: you need to focus your defenses on the likely attack mechanisms & they are all much more violent than a set of lock picks.

  30. #30
    Master
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    While I agree regarding security, lock cylinders vary in reliability. Lower quality cylinders are at higher risk of jamming.

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    The old cylinders were so cheap and nasty in comparison. I wonder why people scrimp on locks?
    Mostly I think it's people not being aware that their locks are at risk, and then some of those that are aware may not be able to justify the cost of an 'upgrade' when they also need to get a locksmith to do the installation. If they're still insurer compliant, then perhaps they aren't too worried.

    I went down the lock rabbit hole a few years back, upgraded, and went down it again a few months back, just to make sure I'm aware of current changes and recommendations, which resulted in another set of upgrades. I am confident in my ability to install such things myself, and crucially, really enjoy the learning and hunting for the good stuff.

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