Morning all.
My boss who knows the (grand total of not very much at all about watches) has been offered this Sub in a private sale from someone he knows and he’s asked me for my thoughts. I don’t consider myself to be an expert here, and the pictures I’ve revived aren’t the best, but would be interested to know firstly if I’m about right with my own observations and secondly, if anyone has anything further to add - I’m always keen to further my knowledge.
Here are the pictures;
And my observations thus far;
Looks to be a 5513 with a printed (not gilt) dial.
The case looks to have been polished at some point. It looks pretty bad in the first picture where the lugs look to have been rounded off, but that could just be the camera angle. In the other pictures - particularly the one of the case back and the wrist shot it actually looks pretty sharp.
The dial looks to have a nice colour to the lume plots but from those pictures the colour looks a bit uneven. Not sure if this is normal or not. Also the dial printing looks a little shoddy, but once again, could be the poor pictures.
The hands look to be the standout issue. I’ve been informed that these have been re lumed with superluminova at some point - presumably by a blind man using a roller. It’s not the best lume job, and even in those photos I can see the lume is cracked right down the middle of the hour and minute hand.
The bracelet looks to be original but with quite a bit of stretch and in one photo I can see a dent on one of the links. I’ve never actually handled a rivet bracelet and so I’m not sure how normal this is, and whether or not this is commensurate with daily wear, but I would say could be restored quite nicely (by one of the well known specialists) and the end links re shaped to fit well.
The crystal looks to be a little scratched, but would probably clean up OK. I like the profile, but not sure how “correct” it is. Unfortunately here is where my knowledge starts to run out.
Same with bezel insert and pearl - I’m a little lacking in knowledge here. For a watch of this age I might expect the insert to be a little more faded, and the pearl looks to be a different colour from the dial lume plots, but with regards to how correct they could be I’m not sure.
Price wise I’m thinking in a private sale, around £10k would be about right and provided things check out and given the condition, but once again I may be well out here.
I’d be keen to hear anyone else’s thoughts. As I’ve said, I don’t consider myself to be an expert here, more of an enthusiastic amateur, and with that in mind, I’ve advised my boss to seek out one of the well respected dealers like Mike or Haywood if he is really serious about going vintage.
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I have a 5513 and know a ‘bit’ but by no means consider myself an expert.
A good 5513 is the sum of its parts and case condition. With these considerations I personally would not be excited by this particular example. It does not quite smell right to me.
Pitch
He needs some numbers, the serial number, bracelet number, the clasp code then he can check these out against the appropriate tables. Bezel insert itself looks okay, but the pip is probably a later addition.
Dial looks okay, but could be a service replacement for an earlier dial - date of watch would help with this. Hands as you say very obviously been messed with.
Cannot comment on polishing from those pics.
Bit of a guess really as photo's are not great. Case does appear to be worn/polished this can be laser welded at a price. Dial seems to have quite a bit of lume loss esp. at 3 and you have to wonder where the lume has migrated to (service needed). The hands are either replaced or relumed but either way they don't look good. Bezel insert looks correct long5 although pip is likely newer. Bracelet I don't know so will pass for others to comment. All in all a nice watch that needs some tlc.
Agree with what has been said but a couple of points to add, a good quality 7206 rivet bracelet changes hands for about £2k so not your normal run of the mill bracelet. Dials in this age band(metres first) generally have a faint green tint to the plots and hands when viewed in natural light so worth checking. From the pics the case doesn’t look too bad although chamfers appears rounded. At that price it could be a decent buy, not saying it’s the best but at 50+ year old it could be worth an experts opinion.
Very boss thing to do, delegate responsibility and take no interest in doing own research! I think most real vintage watch guys love doing own research, so I hate seeing someone like your boss, complete amateur who makes no effort and just wants to join the club.
He’s actually a pretty good bloke, and I never said he was a “real vintage watch guy” - in fact, if he is serious about making a purchase, I’ve suggested he contact one. I’ve been into watches for a pretty long time now and still consider myself an amateur (see original post), but I do think that to chat with a colleague about their hobbies is a pretty normal thing to do, as is to ask a colleagues advice and opinion on something you may be less knowledgable about. I wasn’t aware that watch ownership is a club you need to make an effort to be part of, pretty much anyone can be a member as far as I know, and the last time I checked this was a forum for the discussion of watches - hence my post.Originally Posted by ac11111
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No club, just research and plenty of it.
As stated any vintage watch is a sum of its parts and in order to know if those parts are correct to the watch you need basic details like the year of the watch, then you can check which dial, insert, bracelet etc it would have been sold on. You can systematically go around the watch offered and check each part out on its own merits and start to form an overall opinion.
There are loads of websites that offer details of dials and inserts etc.
Exactly.
Although sometimes ignorance is bliss, start explaining clasp codes, dial variations, serial numbers as some evidence of originality and explain case condition, he probably get a bit scared or bored.
As an Irish broker once said to me: just shut your eyes and buy it godd@@n it
Last edited by ac11111; 6th June 2020 at 11:36.
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