Reply With QuoteA Suunto "wrist-top computer" would put him in good company.
Myself, I stick with autos from Time Factors - they always have done me right!
Now be gentle with me as this is my first new topic in TZ. My brother goes back to Afghanistan again at the end of this year. It seems a tough tour and I am going to give him a present this time to wish him luck. What better than a watch! Of course i cant ask him what he wants as it won't be a surprise. So my question is - what are the coolest watches currently being issued to forces around the world? He is certainly not going to be winding up a mechanical so it needs to be a new quartz one and i want him to be able to show it off to all those crazy guys from the US, Canada and Australia. Traser seems like a good option but then again what do I know?
A Suunto "wrist-top computer" would put him in good company.
Myself, I stick with autos from Time Factors - they always have done me right!
Quite a credible photo there Nalu! i will investigate.
Why not one of Eddie's - PRS 18 or 17?
http://www.timefactors.com/precista.htm
Built to the MoD spec, quartz and definitely tough enough to take the knocks. Plus they're :rr:
THIN is the new BLACK
PRS18Q, great watch!
I second John's (abraxas') recommendation ... I have been wearing my Traser ComTiNav - see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47490 - for some time now, (except for the dial and bezel essentially the nsame watch), and it is a superb timepiece: lightweight, comfortable to the touch, and hugely practical in low-light and night conditions.
I appreciate all the guys who say that the S-L on their watches is good enough ... but I cannot imagine anyone going back from the Traser glow. 8)
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
Crusader, I actually find SL more useful in my day to day operations because I'm going from outside to inside all the time. That intense SL glow you get when you first go inside (and before your eyes are adjusted) is really handy. Once dark-adapted, H3 microtubules are very nice. I like my Precista Titan Commander very much!
I also have a PRS-17Q which I've shown photos of here. No action photos of the Pre Ti Co or the '17 - yet :wink:
An '18 is next and, based on my experiences with the Benrus Type 1 here, may be the best field watch of them all.
It is likely that my own day-to-day operations are less, errr, demanding ... but I see your point. In a perfect world, the white parts of the Traser hands were coated with S-L ...Originally Posted by Nalu
P.S. will reply to your e-mails shortly ... yesterday and today have been fairly crazy with the wife having to undergo medical treatment for several hours a day, putting me on the spot to keep the family together and reign in the teenagers (just cut the WLAN for their computer today).
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
I agree that a combo of H3 and SL would be ideal.
No worries on emails, I understand busy. As it turns out, you are much busier than I am just now - best wishes for a speedy recovery and a return to normalcy, which no doubt you will appreciate more than ever :)
Well it probably seems incredible to most of you guys but i had managed to reach my advanced age without ever being aware of Timefactors. Anyhow that has all changed now. That Titan Commander looks just the job so I might well go for one of those. Thanks for the input.
I don't want to be a wet blanket, but you could do better than GBP195 for a Titan Commander if you get a Luminox. They are essentially Trasers made for the US market. I have had an 8000 series (PVD steel) Luminox with which I was very happy, but I'm selling it on the bay to fund my PRSC17C.
Speaking of which, I'm a lot happier with the PRS 17C (12 hour) than I was with the luminox, tritium tubes aside. The utility of the chronograph (which, at the moment is mainly used for timing the longest 4 minutes in the world - waiting for cisatracurium to work!), with the addition of another time zone from the 12 hour bezel is great. I have mine set to UTC/GMT, which is good for Army (now reserve in my case) purposes. It's 100m water-resistant, which is enough for most purposes, the sapphire crystal means that you're far less likely to scratch it. It also has a 27 jewel ETA quartz movement, blending the durability of ruby bearings and the accuracy of quartz. The movement used is also in much more expensive chronographs, such as Tag Heuer and Longines.
It also looks bloody fantastic.
Regarding lume, just tell him to hold his surefire torch hard up to the bezel before a night task (without light escaping out the sides) and it will glow for many hours thereafter.
I'd recommend buying him the PRS 17C 12 hour. Can't go wrong.
Regards,
Michael
(one of those crazy Australians you mentioned!)
left the army last year after 8 years, its gotta be a seamaster full size auto, james bond, theyre like regulation issue now for brit forces....wouldnt even bother with army barmy keen traser or the likes.....
Marathon do some nice Diver Watches which are indestructible
GSAR
TSAR
SAR
SAR-D
take a look :P all about £300 ($600) or below
I got a PRS Ti Commander recently, and I do like it. Very light indeed, and it seemed to me that the price was better than equivalent models from Traser or Luminox. It also gives the impression that it would fine if you twatted it.
However, I think the tubes on my Dievas give a slightly brighter lume - I suspect this is down to the way they sit in the watch rather than the tubes themselves. And it's not scientific, just an impression.
Anyway, I think I'd probably go for a 17 or 18, depending whether you want the date or not.
Or a marathon TSAR if you want something a bit different. Dievas too, but they're quite difficult to get hold of in the UK, and I think not of the same overall quality as Precista.
For genuine military field use, the gimmicky tracer type watches are actually annoyingly bright (dazzling to night vision) and actually not tactically sound for operations at night (- people can quite easily see you from over 100m away in the dark). They are no where near as common amongst British soldiers as you might think. Once eyes are adapted to the dark, soldiers avoid looking at bright things. Standard Luminova/Tritium is easy to read and perfectly bright enough for night adapted eyes. Digital watches with back lights such as G-Shocks are very popular (because they are cheap and robust) but once again are too bright and cannot be just glanced at without having to cover them up and then press buttons. Suunto have the same problem and are expensive with fun but totally unnecessary toys. Also big watches get in way and tend to get hooked up or smashed on things and if heavy, tend to be uncomfortable when doing physical work such as PT, digging, sledge hammering etc.
Which takes you back to the small, light, strong, legible, and reliable CWC watches which are issued (so free) and have everything you could need (including fixed strap bars so they don't get hooked on your bergen (backpack) straps (when you're struggling to get it on your back) and then rip off your wrist. As most soldiers have little interest in watches other than simply knowing the time they mostly wear the issue one or something they don't mind damaging. When in camp or in jobs where they are not likely to damage them, people wear whatever they like, which means lots of Omega SMP because they are generally a popular watch with lots of young men military or otherwise.
So in summary, if you have not already made your decision, get him a nice watch to wear when off duty and let the MOD give him one for work.
Contrary to popular belief, tritium tubes on a watch face are not visible at all beyond 5 meters to the naked eye, and about 10 meters to NVG. Under NVG at 10 to 12 meters, the glow for the dial is not recognizable as a man-made object, just an odd sparkle, if you don't know to look at it, you would miss it.
Of course, if you are wearing NVGs and are 10 meters from somebody and you don't see that person, you probably need to turn the NVGs on, or replace the batteries.
Thanks for the clarification, lysander ... I was hard-pressed to believe that the US military would put so much money into making their soldiers near invisible with digital camo (and all the IR absorption etc. built in - camouflage clothing is much more than colors these days), but would put beacons on them at night. :wink:
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
The stuff made out of cotton-nylon material is fairly good at remaining "camouflaged" under IR, but you should see what the Gore-tex stuff looks like under IR. :shock:
If people want to believe that tritium vials they are necessary for the ultimate military watch that's fine. I know that the issue one is perfectly adequate and free so in response:
Actually I wasn't referring to NVGs, I was talking about night adapted vision. I spent eight years in the regular Army and served in NI, Bosnia, Sierra Leone and Iraq. I can tell you with absolute certainty that after 20 minutes in the dark avoiding bright/white light you can see tracer/luminox watches from much further than 5 meters. Granted 100m was an exaggeration but up to 50m is actually quite realistic - particularly when the wearer is moving and swinging their arm. If you don't believe me try it yourself. I vividly remember someone buying one and then getting grief from an NCO for being lit up like a christmas tree during a night patrol on the next exercise. Also I stand by my original point that anything brighter than standard luminescent material is unnecessary for soldiering and will probably actually reduce your night adapted vision if you stare at it. Crusader your faith in US DoD procurement has obviously not been tainted by reality. Also the British kit is all IRR as well.
Well, all I know is in the ten years I spent messing with that sort of stuff, I have never seen saw another persons watch unless I was right next to them.
Of course, the standard Marathon or SandY are not any brighter than regular luminous stuff.
A compass face, however....
This one (or the Traser of Luminox version) would be my choice. I have the Ti 6506 and it's lightweight, tough with great lume. The lume is almost too good. If he's on night ops he'll want a cover for it. :D
Pete, only a modest percentage of personnel in the Army are infantry or some other corps who require absolute light discipline. I do recall snipers in our commando battalion in 2000 getting angry for being issued standard G-shocks, and then applied gaffer tap to the dial to minimise the light emission, just showing the time, but they were snipers.
The number of people who gear themselves up to the hilt and then work in a non tactically oriented job is quite high. It's a bit of marketing on the part of tactical combat clothing/nylon companies and corps/regimental shops in my opinion.
I have a tritium watch (luminox), so does my CO (sterile dial Traser). We work in a field hospital (he is a GSO and I am an MO - 10 years regular, now reservist). Even if I deploy on aeromedical operations with NVG, my sleeves are down outside the aircraft (and the watch is usually under my gloves) and then inside the aircraft the lume, while very visible, is a safe colour for the aircrew on NVG, and I don't have to press a button to see the time if I'm doing something else with the other hand.
My (military) work environment is one in which bright lighting is part of our defence plan, since we are too big to hide our location and often declare our facility anyway (red cross flags and the like). It still helps to have a watch that is lit up in the dark though, without prior charging.
Totally agree with your post, I was being a bit narrow minded with regard to roles but I did specify - if the watch was intended for genuine field use. I had in mind patrolling at night in the green zone. The Trasers are fine for many roles (and maybe are better for some specialised ones where light emissions are irrelevant) but my point was that the issue one is free and good and having extra bright illumination might be fun but is in most cases a bit unnecessary.
I agree with Pete and am going to pull a pair of NVGs out of the arms room to have a test with the PreTiCo this week. I have a hard time believing it won't be visible from 50m away. I'll attempt to take photos, but it is a royal PITA to do this with NVGs and so I can't guarantee anything.
Have to differ with Michael a bit. It's true that there are a lot of overly-kitted-out REMFs out there, but OTOH you never know when you'll need light and noise discipline and then it's too late if you haven't thought this through - whatever your choices - beforehand.
I was a Medical Corps LTC in Farah, A'stan in 2005 when we had to 'hide' our entire PRT - 150m square, several nights in a row. We did get rocketed and they missed by a good margin. Our good luck? Our excellent light and noise discipline? Their bad training? I don't know and wouldn't care to test the hypothesis. I'm just happy we got the intel and executed.
I know that when I first received my PreTiCo in Kirkuk in '05 that I was shocked by how bright it was and immediately determined that I wouldn't be wearing it much until I got out of country. Part of our living area was in sight of the water tower in town and there were sniper cells in Kirkuk at the time. I wasn't going to take any chances. I mentioned the brightness to Eddie and he replied that when he received the shipment, he left the lid askew on the box and had to get up in the middle of the night to close it completely because the glow was keeping him awake.
I must concede the point to Nalu. My green (or sandy!) field experience is quite limited as I have mostly served with army aviation regiments when not posted to a field hospital.
While one can roll a sleeve down, it can easily be yanked up unexpectedly, and the use of an old-style leather cover kind of negates the advantages of automatic lume - may as well use a G-shock.
I bought all my timefactors watches since deploying last, which was Oct 2006 in Kandahar and Kuwait the year before, so I only have experience in the field with a G-shock personally, but I do wonder why the US Armed Forces made tritium watches standard issue. Then again, there isn't an army in the world which hasn't issued kit en masse that was sourced by a desk pilot in a materiel department somewhere, without field experience.
In cases where light discipline was concerned, the lume on the PRS18A/Q (but probably not the quantity of SL on the PRS10 dial and certainly not the PRS17C) would be adequate with night adapted eyes - I certainly woudn't charge it the way I do before a night AME mission. Freshly charged SL glows much more brightly that GTLS.
Yup. Keep in mind that the US haven't had a war requiring a change in culture (i.e. lasting more than a few months) since the early 70s. This has led to some bad decisions in the interim, individual kit being only part of it. To their credit, the VN vets who were youngsters then and stuck around to be Sergeants-Major and Generals did do a great job of keeping us relatively ready. The "no more Task Force Smiths" rally cry (I think that was GEN Sullivan) actually served its purpose.
So Michael, does this place look familiar?
While not applicable to all U.S.-issued tritium-vial watches, the mil.spec. for the "Navigator" model states that its intended use is for aircrew during prolonged flights.
I know that the company making them is getting a big deal out of touting them as "special forces watches", but I think that is due to the special reputation that "special forces" command these days ...
The tritium vials come into their own in an enclosed vehicle, an aircraft, or a bunker, but do so with a vengeance. 8)
Cheers,
Martin ("Crusader")
Also, it should be noted that sleeves are worn down in the field, so any glow is not exposed.
You had sleeves? Luxury! I would have given anything for sleeves.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Purely anecdotally, whenever I've been able to make out the watch being worn by British or American forces on the TV news, it's rarely been anything other than a G-SHOCK.
Yep (commence Twilight Zone music).Yup. Keep in mind that the US haven't had a war requiring a change in culture (i.e. lasting more than a few months) since the early 70s. This has led to some bad decisions in the interim, individual kit being only part of it. To their credit, the VN vets who were youngsters then and stuck around to be Sergeants-Major and Generals did do a great job of keeping us relatively ready. The "no more Task Force Smiths" rally cry (I think that was GEN Sullivan) actually served its purpose.
So Michael, does this place look familiar?
It's true G Shocks are everywhere because they are trendy, cheap, robust and readily available and not every soldier actually gets issued a watch (in the British Army anyway!). Dependant on unit/individual role they may not care much about being tactical anyway (non combat roles). If you are combat rolled they are still fine unless you want to know the time at night as this involves using both hands (as the light button has to be activated) which is not always convenient - especially if you are waiting for a specific time (like H Hour) and you have to keep pressing it over and over again (whilst holding something e.g. a rifle). Also once lit the screen is very bright to night accustomed eyes - not too good if you are tactical.
Suuntos are very popular as well because of the fun toys and because there's a sort of fashion for "Gucci" kit in the military. They also have the inconvenient backlight problem.
Again, a bit of an ideal situation. When it's over 140F, all bets are off - I've seen guys out on patrol without tops and even one instance of IBA over skin!
I apologise to anyone waiting, but some issues have arisen which have taken up my time (work! it's always in the way!) and kept me from performing my NVG experiment. I will get to it, I promise.
Michael, thanks for posting that. It's very cool to know that we've tromped some of the same ground! I wish I could get some of the young surgeons here to KISS :| I'm trying to work out a 're-training' rotation at Mater in Crow's Nest for next year, will keep you posted if I'm heading your way!
Judging from that film in your left hand I guess that you're either a trauma surgeon or an orthopod. Am I right or way off the mark?
Orthopod mate - sports medicine when not in theater and trauma when I am. That day I was treating a 'urologic' injury - middle aged NCO got up in the middle of the night to take care of business and broke his ankle going down the steps :D
Ha! I used to wear my DCUs exactly like that with the cuffs turned inward. Allowed for a greater degree of ventilation without the completely unsightly appearance that might attract the ire of the CSM. Have to say the UM ballcap would have elicited a discipline-focused tirade from even someone as laid-back about uniform discipline as myself, but I digress from the point in focus.
Have to say that I must agree with the overall thrust of this thread. I'm very generally of the opinion that luminova is at least 'good enough' if not better suited to most land-based tactical applications, and overall traser tubes are only called for in highly specialized light-starved situations. I must confess I do prefer the at-a-glance legibility of a luminous analog or digi-log to an incandescent or electroluminescent backlight in terms of tactical light discipline. But on the basis of my considerable tactical experience, overall I can't see how the tactical liability of either tubes or luminova is appreciably different whether to unaided or NVG-augmented eyes is appreciably different in most circumstances.
In fact, overall I would say that the greatest tactical liability associated with wristwatches remains the glare from the crystal, which is in most respects fairly neatly mitigated by a proper domed design.
An "old-school" Vietnam-era attempt to deal with this is to wear the watch on the underside or "pulse" side of the wrist, though the habit has now fallen out of fashion for a variety of stylistic and tactical reasons. And of course overall, the utility of camouflage in current conflicts is relatively limited; if you just came blazing up in a HMMWV, Stryker or MRAP most aspects of light discipline are fairly beside the point; a wristwatch is a trivial concern.
It seems like that you have already done a good job. Then I should follow your guide. Thanks. Could u please post more in future? Haaa.
***THIS USER IS NOW...........***
(been waiting ages to use that one :D )
Just a quick point onthe british issue of watches, In my headquarters company we have over 150 personell but only 10 watches to issue, so from that you can work out that most soldiers buy their own watches.
Used to wear gore-tex or waterproofs under smocks, in part to minimise sound.
Also light discipline was very seriously taken.
Thermal imaging was also applied and this had a bearing on light discipline, also.
Best wishes,
AP.
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