I’m guessing there’s going to be a few owner on here and was looking in to the various issues some of the engines have.
Im trying to gauge the severity of the problems and whether it should deter anyone from purchasing one? I don’t really want to fall down a rabbit whole of another forum where sometimes problems can be blown out of proportion. It also seems they’re full of people looking to sell various upgrade kits which again makes me question how bad the issues really are.
It appears the problems are mainly contained with the 996’s but some 3.6ltr 997 have other issues.....can anyone shed the light on this.
Anyone had a real life failure and what was the cost to fix?
I know I could be checking out some Porsche forums but I trust you guys in here to know your onions.
Cheers FFF.
Btw I’m looking at 3.8s 997’s from 2007-2009ish.
I think it’s the IMS kit you’re referring to. % wise very few people have suffered from a failure. But enough to make people really paranoid about it!
The upgrade is a very good selling point and on the enthusiast forums many won’t buy unless it’s had it done or will negotiate it down.
Me personally the kit is much cheaper than an engine rebuild and for peace of mind wouldn’t get it .
Also you’ll find it easier to sell a car that has had it on the way out .
I’ve had a LME bearing kit in my Porsche when I changed the clutch, as a precautionary measure.
I believe bore scoring is a concern as well as the bearing - so having those checked is probably worthwhile.
Buying a good used car that needs a clutch soon, and then having both done could be a good way of buying and future proofing.
It's just a matter of time...
Have you looked through the Hartech site?
https://www.hartech.org/
There's a long guide to many aspects of buying a Porsche:
https://www.hartech.org/images/downl...rs%20Guide.pdf
Bore scoring / bores going oval is a serious issue on the 3.6 and 3.8 engines found in the 996’s and 1st gen 997’s. It is serious and is a well documented and very real issue . When I had my 996 3.6 I was always worried that a 10 grand rebuild was just around the corner. A lot of people have the bores inspected with a bore scope when buying for peace of mind. I think there’s a design issue where one bank of cylinders doesn’t get cooled as much as the other, soot in one of the exhaust pipes is an indication.
Also these engines have rear main seal and ims issues from what I remember.
I would love another 911, but would get a 997 version 2 or a Hartech rebuilt 996 or 997 v1 if I could find one, as from what I remember Hartech machine the block and fit inserts essentially converting it into a closed deck block amongst other things. Apparently the early 3.4 996’s were the strongest, and the boring out to increase displacement to 3.6 and 3.8 weakened the blocks.
The issues were only with the NA cars, the turbos had a different engine.
There’s a lot of good information on PistonHeads.
I sold mine in 2010, so my recollection may not be 100%
No, cheers.Originally Posted by Mr Pointy
I have a 2002 C2 tiptronic 996 and had the IMS done by a Porsche specialist when I bought it 3 years ago. It’s been 100% reliable mechanically, just had to fix some air con issues. I would ask when the front mounted condensers were last replaced as they rot. There are also known problems with charging the battery due to a weakness in a cable on the back of the alternator. Check charging voltage.
If you are buying any secondhand Porsche (over 3 years old) then get a PPI undertaken on it first. A PPI will check everything not just the condition of the engine. An IMS failure is bad, but then so is replacing the transmission, suspension, break callipers, exhaust system, AC and electrical bits. A new indicator stalk/switch can cost you over £500.
They are wonderful cars and very reliable, but when they go wrong or need a bit of TLC it can seriously damage your wallet. The engine rebuild and replacement clutch on my old 964 was over £14k. That said, it like having a new car now.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I have a 997.1s. If you're going to buy one you need to going to factor in the risk of an engine rebuild if it hasn't already had it done.
Mine cost 12K (Hartech).
@franky I have been through all the above issues with my 997 with bore scoring. The issue is more likely to happen on the S (3.8) model than the 3.6 and also with a tiptronic box. However I have the 3.6 manual and I had bore scoring so go figure? A boroscope on cylinder 5 and 6 is a good confirmation that it has it, but if you know what to listen for you can hear it clear as day. A very good friend is a Porsche master tech at PorscheGB and the 997 gen 2 also suffers I just think Porsche did a better cover up with the likes of warranty repairs.
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Yep, my son had bore scoring on cylinder 6 on his S , rather than mess about with engine rebuilds he traded it in for a M3 and is now happy.
Definitely an issue D, the answer of course is to buy the turbo. Mine was great (in some respects anyway). As I understand it it (IMS) affects 3.4/3.6/3.8 so all iterations of the m96. I've read various things that some are better than others but it seems there have been multiple failures in all.
Certainly I'd think twice about buying one now as a 996/996 is what 18-22k and an engine rebuild is, as has been said, 12k or so, unless you'd do it?
Baz Hart/autofarm/sportsclassic are the known names in the area (engine not geographic) and I dare say there are others.
Ant Antstead did a decent breakdown of the issue on a wheeler dealers I saw with a boxster.
I'd want one with the rebuild done and oddly it doesn't seem to add that much
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2006-PORS...cAAOSwvCReyWox
shame this is a cat car mind but an ebay search of hartech will often bring them up.
I think there was a successful class action in the US regarding it but we don't get that of course.
There is also the RMS, not to be confused with the IMS. The former just being a seal.
And then if that's fine get the bores checked for bore score which will also destroy the engine but it seems the gen 2 engines also suffer from this
It's a bit of a turkey of an engine really!
Speaking to Steve Bull (in Devizes) about it a while back he said they tended to keep workshop space as they came in quite frequently, for investigation at least.
You need the rebuilt ones!
Last edited by DavidL; 30th May 2020 at 17:04.
It's the IMS (intermediate shaft) bearing on the 996's and early 997's that can be an issue.
Engine (3.6) number up to M96/05 69507475 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M96/05 69507476 has the larger revised IMS.
Engine (3.8) number up to M97/01 68509790 has the older IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.
Bore scoring can affect all M96 and M97 Gen1 engines but the larger capacity tip gearbox models are more prone to it.
Having said all that if the car has been looked after properly, serviced at the correct intervals and always warmed up thoroughly before opening the taps up they can go on forever. The thing is these engines were introduced in 1996 and went on to 2008 before these issues were finally sorted by Porsche, as they get longer in the tooth correct servicing can be skimped and unsympathetic driving is more likely. Caveat emptor!
My 997 gen1 3.8 C2S manual has been pampered all it's life by the two previous owners and myself, however it still suffered bore scoring durning the previous owners tenure which resulted in a £13k Hartech engine rebuild.
If you're remotely thinking of buying one look for one that's had a full 6 pot Hartech rebuild done already, it's surprising how many are out there. Buy one of those and there's no need to worry about a fragile engine.
As has been said 997.2 is the answer. Or as has also been said turbo or GT car!
I had a 996 4S and it did have engine issues some years ago. Put me off the car completely. It wasn't the 10k rebuild issues being discussed. But did cost me into the thousands to repair. Was a tappet issue from memory. The fear was always there about the catastrophic failure so soon after the repair I sold it. Then went for the 996 turbo. A sublime car.
More recently 997.2 which is great in it's own way and proven to be reliable.
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So assuming that the 997.2 is from 2008 onwards and as such from 2008 onwards the problem doesn’t exist or is not so prevalent?
Cheers David. There I was thinking it was just RR that could bite you in the arse!
All cars can bite you in the arse. However, the problems mentioned affect a small percentage of cars. As ever, the Internet is full of tales of woe, written by owners with problems. Those that have had none don’t write...
By all means, minimise risk by buying a 3.6. Buy one with a replaced IMS (though LNE has lost its darling status now, and recommend changing their replacement ceramic bearings fairly frequently now...) if you wish, though you are of course reliant that the engineer that changed it has done it properly. Conversely, buy one after boroscoping, sit back, enjoy the drive, and don’t worry about something that is fairly unlikely to happen!
Every £100k car has potential for £100k car style bills. Hence Aston’s are relatively cheap...
Porsche engineering is a class above (IMO, albeit I lust after an Aston still), and they are the only maker of that ilk whose cars can be used every day (indeed, they don’t enjoy being garage queens).
As for Turbos...absolutely great - no IMS to worry about, but plenty of type-specific issues there as well!
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The 997.2's are pretty much free of the problems that dogged the 997.1 although they aren't problem free - for example a 911UK forum member had to have his rebuilt by Hartech due to scoring issues. Due to the DFI system they can suffer from coking up to the extent where it can actually be very difficult to remove the spark plugs, and changing the plugs is a laborious job which involves removing the back boxes. People say they don't sound as good although I wouldn't say so, it's just a different sound to the 997/996 which is easily sorted if you were inclined to do so. The PDK's have been known to suffer a few failures and that's an expensive job.
As indicated in earlier post with the engine numbers the larger IMS bearing was fitted on the gen1 997 and less prone to failure.
I think the 2005 cars have the smaller bearing and late 2005 cars have the bigger bearing.
Gen2 997s don't suffer from IMS problems but like the gen2 caymans and boxsters are priced to reflect this.
£1500 for a good Porsche indy to do it.
All very good info above which I can’t add much more too.
I have a 997.1 CS and my specialist said he’s seen 1 car (in over 300 he’s had in) suffer from common issues.
Remember the forums are typically full of ‘my car has broken’ threads rather than ‘I’ve had my car for nn years and nothing has gone wrong with it apart from routine servicing’ threads.
If you can afford it then get a Turbo for worry-free motoring, or a 981 Cayman.
Last edited by gavsw20; 31st May 2020 at 12:04.
To add, the vast majority of cars sold by specialists (RSJ, 911V etc...) are 997’s.
If you are really worried then get a bore-scope inspection done prior to purchase.
I have a 996. A lot of this is overblown internet nonsense - kind of stuff 15 year olds post on Drivetribe.
there were weak points on some of the cars for sure, but by now those that are going to go have gone. Get one that's been properly looked after and you'll be fine. The only danger is trying to buy a "budget" 911 - there's no such thing; if it's been skimped on for years all you're doing is buying the risk.
Having had an early (1998) 3.4 996 C2 manual (with no issues btw) and planning/hoping to be able to have another 911 in the future, my 2p worth....
To allow me to "sleep at night", I wouldn't have another 996 or 997 unless (as Duncan says above) it's had a Hartech rebuild. Many may say this is over-kill, but it's just how I feel
It's well worth reading all the Hartech info. and coming to your own conclusion. I chatted to them at length on the phone as well.
I would have a 996/997 Turbo though ....expensive enough to run in their own way, but without the potential engine issues that have blighted the 996/7 Carreras.
All my opinion though; you'll have to read all the info. and come to your own conclusion as to whether you will be able to sleep at night!...for me, that's what it boiled down to.
I really enjoyed my 996; a really nice car: suspension/handling sorted at Center Gravity, nice amount of power for the road; a really 'sweet' package.
Let us know your thoughts!
Cheers
Thanks for all the links and advise it been most informative. Reason I asked on here was because, has was said a few posts down, there’s loads of poor, misinformation by all types on specific forums and I wanted a more across the board overview.
From all of the below it seems that my target is a 997.2 however I wouldn’t be that concerned if it were a 997.1 and I had to carry out the bushing solution myself. I know it would be done correctly and it would remove some stress of ownership.
once again thanks for all the advise and links
FFF
This isnt a very knowledgeable post. Porsche's own figures which they were forced to release, show a shocking level of failure.
- - - Updated - - -
This isnt a very knowledgeable post. Porsche's own figures which they were forced to release, show a shocking level of failure.
Try telling that to my wallet.
It's the old 'as long as it's been looked after' line that's internet nonsense. You have no idea if a car has been thrashed cold during its 15 year life. Mine has an exemplary service record and it still failed. The car has a very costly design flaw and should be treated as a ticking bomb.
My 997 is a great car, and I've made my peace with it. When I'm not driving it it's never far from my thoughts.
I'm not a car flipper, and I plan to keep it until I'm not physically or mentally capable of driving it anymore.
It's cost me a few quid but it's all paid for and given the work that Hartech did there should be no more nasty surprises.
It's a small percentage but colossal impact issue if you get caught.
You can get a DFI car to avoid most issues but they are way more electronically complex.
I had a DFI Cayman S which developed a horn failure and cost £3000 at a dealer to fix. That's THREEE THOUSAND POUNDS to fix a horn!
Luckily the car was in warranty but it put me off the car long term.
This is a great point. The 996 may have potential mechanical issues, but is fairly analogue. With Franky in the trade, and mechanically gifted (he looked after my troublesome cars many years ago), this may be the cheaper and less stressful in the long-term route for him. I have owned 2 M96 engine cars. The first one had a crate replacement engine fitted by Porsche, the second a LNE ceramic bearing fitted by a paranoid owner. Both were subsequently extremely reliable, with only consumables (and I include suspension parts) required to keep them in fine fettle.
996s can be bought relatively cheaply....and are still sweet-handling and entertaining drives. Only disadvantage is the somewhat dated interior (which can be modernised by the fitment of an Appradio).
Go on Dudley......save yourself at least £10k on the purchase price over your 997!
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Last edited by Pete D; 31st May 2020 at 22:39.
Nothing really to add to all the sage advice here but you MUST get a pre-purchase inspection from a trusted specialist (not matey from the AA) and do your own research regarding the provenance of the car. If you can find a car with a rebuilt engine, clearly the whole £10k or whatever rebuild cost won't be passed down to the purchase price but would be a couple of £k well spent.
Then prepare £2k to spend on it when you've bought it!
bought the wife a 987 2.7 boxster gen1, First job was it needed a clutch,so ims and rms changed and modded ,to try ease my mind.The bearing that came out with 90k on it was beautiful.if you get a porsche you will still worry about things going bang,just forget it and try enjoy it.
Some considerations FFF.
IMS issues are not as common as the internet would have you believe - they happen but infrequently.
Earlier cars are easier to get peace of mind from in that the IMS bearing is changeable without splitting the engine casings. 987 Cayman and 997's fall into the 'engine strip category' needed for IMS work. The bigger issue is the 3.8's in particular with bore scoring. Folks have suggested some reading which is all good.
The later 997.2 DFI engines are not immune from issues but deemed to be better by enthusiasts and the IMS bearing arrangement is different.
The issue remains that it is a Porsche - the days of a plethora of cheap parts are not ever going to be enjoyed - there is no Porsche equivalent of £30 for a pair of rear Defender discs!.
Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 2nd June 2020 at 15:50.
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