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Thread: The more I thinks about it...the less chance the Swiss have of survival

  1. #1
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    The more I thinks about it...the less chance the Swiss have of survival

    Digging through a watch box today, long abandoned and left unloved, the more I realise, at heart, Seiko are the brand I really bond with.

    I have numerous Rolex sports and Omega's, couple of Glycine Airman, the odd Porsche Design and no doubt others I have forgotten ( better have a look)....but if I had to cull it would be the Seiko's that would pull the heart strings.

    I suspect much of this is to do with the current Rolex craziness and fixation on value and asset appreciation which leaves me cold. The Swiss, whilst some of them I have owned for many decades, leave me cold.

    The Airman are an exception... something about them. Genuine history, not manipulated half truths.



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  2. #2
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    I own a Tudor, and Glycine. A Sinn is my concession to the technical excellence of German engineering.

    But I'm way more passionate about Seiko than anything else. I would never be without a Seiko diver in the collection, but could live without everything else.

  3. #3
    Master
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    Cool

    Hum. That’s rather a big generalisation. As they say around here, “each to their own”. I like Swiss, German, UK, Japanese, Chinese.

    “Watches are like beautiful women, treat them with care and they will give years of happiness.” To paraphrase The Fast Show.

    This one always pulls my heart strings and will never leave

    Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 23rd May 2020 at 17:45.

  4. #4
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    The guilty box.....time to open others maybe...



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  5. #5
    Journeyman
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    The guilty box.....time to open others maybe...



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    Fantastic collection! I'm especially envious of the white dialled "helmet".

  6. #6
    Just clearing mine out on the bay, left with three Rolex, a Tudor and a seventies Certina. Sold a Seiko that I never wore.

  7. #7
    Grand Master
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    When I started going around the antiques fairs in the mid-90s Seiko watches were as cheap as chips. For years I associated Seiko with 'cheap and cheerful'. That view changed somewhat when I started to work on watches, Seikos movements generally aren`t pretty but they stand up to wear and tear very well. They have their limitations, timekeeping and precision is way behind the decent Swiss stuff but I`ve developed a respect for them, for the price they were excellent and I have to admire the longevity.

    I'll never be a big Seiko fan and I wouldn't pay a lot for one. I don`t mind working on them but the owners always seem to want them fixing for peanuts. A typical example was a guy who I`d given advice to regarding purchase of an Omega 2254.50, he then asked if I`d service a Seiko 7s26, I gave him a very reasonable quote but he tried to chip me down to about £35! I politely declined the job, I`ve had a few similar episodes so I steer clear of them.

  8. #8
    Master aldfort's Avatar
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    That's a big leap. One WIS' preference for a certain brand is not a defacto guarantee that the economy of a whole country will collapse!

  9. #9
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    Sorry, I should make this clear it purely my personal opinion and I am in no way saying they are better value for money (some clearly aren't, but command premiums for age/limited numbers reasons, like many brands ), this is purely from an emotional and tactile point of view.

    I would sell my Sub over my original 6159-7001. Just no contest in my mind. Likewise Porsche Design over the Helmet Heads, Pogue (albeit blue one), one button chronos (5717) I have would definitely stay etc.

    Cost of maintenance is what it is. If I want them to work and survive...they need to be maintained. Never had a problem with the cost. Skilled technicians need to be paid what it costs.

    The cost of servicing some brands, the difficulty obtaining parts and restrictive practices does piss me off. As does it many no doubt.





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  10. #10
    Craftsman 50kopek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    The guilty box.....time to open others maybe...



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    I think it would be good for you to relieve some of that guilt. Maybe sell one or two. More specifically the 6217 world time and the 62mas. More specifically to me...
    But serously, great collection. It’s not hard to believe you would let go of your other watches before these.

  11. #11
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    Don’t worry about the Swiss

    They will fine. When I started on TZ-UK I had a few with the coronet As my name might suggest although no where near as many as some, a few years later I have quite a few more. Just like the OP says though Seiko certainly does have something that’s equally as special as certain Swiss brands.

  12. #12
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    Master numberjack's Avatar
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    Most of the big name Swiss brands are pricing themselves out of the market for the average Joe
    Added to the joke of trying to buy a SS Rolex,Ap or PP if you’ve got 5-10k in your pocket what’s available?

    For me Grand Seiko are a revelation at half the money of the cheapest Swiss equivalents , if they were even available to buy .

  14. #14
    Master
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    Forgive me but I never really get the ‘leaves me cold’ thing? Why not just not sell them if that’s how they make you feel and put the money to better use? For me personally Swiss watches are the ‘better use. I get far more out of wearing and enjoying my Swiss watches then anything else I own or have ever owned. I like a nice car, but I’d rather spend it on a watch if it was a choice of one or the other.

    As for Swiss watches and it’s future - it’s future is just fine and I’m sure it will be the same in a decade, though the same chat will still happen.

    An Electrician came to my house the other day to do some work outside (social distancing of course) and noticed my watch glimmering in the sun (VC overseas blue dial and that dial really pops in the sun). Asked me about it and then went on to tell me that he worked weekends for ages to buy himself a Deepsea (black) from an AD. Clearly his pride and joy from the way he described it. He’s 28 and set his business up two years ago and works damn hard. Went on to tell me he wants to buy a Tudor next for his two year old son to give it to him when he’s older - there’s the Swiss watch future.

  15. #15
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    Amazing collection


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  16. #16
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    I have no doubt the future of Swiss watches is fine and not in doubt.

    It always seems to come down to a (same) few brands and money.

    Noting wrong in that, but the impression is that is all anyone is interested in.

    Again I reiterate this is personal and my opinion. I am in a minority and not trying to change anyone's mind. Good on those for working hard to buy what they aspire to what ever it may be.

    Under the current circumstances I have given thought to what I actually need, which is nothing really. What could I divest myself of..all of it. What if push came to shove and I needed to reduce collections....as above in previous posts. Like my cameras, digital ones would go, the old film one remain. Just my preference.

    Hey, each to their own.




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  17. #17
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    Another box.......(poor photo, sorry)

    I will find the Europeans eventually!



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    Last edited by gerard; 24th May 2020 at 15:13.

  18. #18
    Master
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    Nobody outside of WIS world would take Seiko seriously as long as they make $100 watches. The majority of watch wearers are not WIS

  19. #19
    Master
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    Hi Gerard, good to see a fellow Glycine Airman fan in all its many guises. Here's a pic of my Airman 9 which I am very fond of.


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ac11111 View Post
    Nobody outside of WIS world would take Seiko seriously as long as they make $100 watches. The majority of watch wearers are not WIS
    I don't really understand what you mean by taking Seiko seriously.

    If you mean taking them seriously as a name to wear on their wrist as a symbol of status, I think you're right. People who want to flash their cash are going to be put off by the S word on the dial.

    But Seiko have a fantastic reputation among WIS and the standard punter for providing high quality, reliability, and innovative technology at an affordable price. When your average person on the street thinks about buying a "proper" watch which they know will give them decades of reliable service, more times than not, they're thinking of Seiko, and not the Swiss brands.

  21. #21
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagan View Post
    I don't really understand what you mean by taking Seiko seriously.

    If you mean taking them seriously as a name to wear on their wrist as a symbol of status, I think you're right. People who want to flash their cash are going to be put off by the S word on the dial.

    But Seiko have a fantastic reputation among WIS and the standard punter for providing high quality, reliability, and innovative technology at an affordable price. When your average person on the street thinks about buying a "proper" watch which they know will give them decades of reliable service, more times than not, they're thinking of Seiko, and not the Swiss brands.
    I own and have owned Seiko/GS so appreciate them. I think majority of people would want to buy one nice luxury watch at some point in their life, they are unlikely to ever go for Seiko as first choice but something Swiss, I don’t think this is case of flashing as they don’t see Seiko even competing and it doesn’t come to mind, and so I don’t think it will threaten Swiss watch industry. Most people associate Seiko with the watches sold on watchshop.com.

  22. #22
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    I own a few Seikos - They're good watches, but they don't hugely excite me.

    I'm always a bit baffled when people show a rather ordinary looking Seiko diver and others plough in to rave about it, but as someone said, it takes all sorts.

    While I know some Seikos (and increasingly so looking at prices!) play in the same space as Swiss makes, I'm pretty sure that the majority of buyers in those parts of the market (perhaps it's different in Asia) would not look at Seiko first, even Grand Seiko.

    Seiko might well last longer than Swiss brands, but not because their watches are better or more desirable, but simply because they're a hugely diversified company selling mass market products at multiple price points.

    M
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  23. #23
    Master mindforge's Avatar
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    Well when I bought my first high end watch with a small inheritance, I chose GS over the similarly styled Omega. I'm very glad I did and still have it. I liked the way that the design was a direct continuation of the cheap Seiko quartz I had had, followed by a Seiko 5 as my first mechanical.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    When I started going around the antiques fairs in the mid-90s Seiko watches were as cheap as chips. For years I associated Seiko with 'cheap and cheerful'. That view changed somewhat when I started to work on watches, Seikos movements generally aren`t pretty but they stand up to wear and tear very well. They have their limitations, timekeeping and precision is way behind the decent Swiss stuff but I`ve developed a respect for them, for the price they were excellent and I have to admire the longevity.

    I'll never be a big Seiko fan and I wouldn't pay a lot for one. I don`t mind working on them but the owners always seem to want them fixing for peanuts. A typical example was a guy who I`d given advice to regarding purchase of an Omega 2254.50, he then asked if I`d service a Seiko 7s26, I gave him a very reasonable quote but he tried to chip me down to about £35! I politely declined the job, I`ve had a few similar episodes so I steer clear of them.
    I agree. There are quite a few chip and cheapest on the forum. They will spend a fortune on a Rolex or Omega and quibble over a few quid to get it serviced on the cheap!?

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  25. #25
    I am not sure the argument against Swiss brands being that people are obsessed with value retention is a valid one. Vintage Seiko are also fought over and argued to death over value retention not to mention the endless "Limited edition" watches Seiko are churning out. To be honest I find the endless Seiko threads gushing over how great value they are (Usually with a dig at some Swiss brand or another) Just as boring as the numerous Rolex threads.

    Just for comparison, look at the numerous Grand Seiko quartz threads and compare them to how many threads there are on the Citizen in spite of it being at least equal if not better quality than the Seiko (The Citizen has a perpetual calendar)

  26. #26
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    For those who think that Seiko is doing cheap stuff, please have a look at this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUBA8BQNHJo

    For me, being able to produce watches from few $ until 50k $ is more like a quality.

    Rolex was founded in 1902 by Hans Wilsdorf and his brother-in-law Alfred Davis as Wilsdorf and Davis. He founded the watch making company in London where they specialized in importing Hermann Aegler's quality movements and then placing them in quality watch cases made by companies such as Dennison. The duo distributed the timepieces to jewelers that added their names to the wristwatches. Some of the earliest watches produced were often stamped with "W&D" on the inside of the caseback.
    The story of Seiko began in 1881, when a 21 year old entrepreneur, Kintaro Hattori, opened a shop selling and repairing watches and clocks in central Tokyo.
    And if you want to know more about japans watches, you can read this: https://watchesbysjx.com/2016/09/how...ted-clock.html

    Tanaka’s clock was a masterpiece of the old order. Having spent several years learning about astronomy and the cosmos, Tanaka began work on the Mannen Jimeishou in 1848. Sleeping only a few hours each day, he spent three years building most of the clock himself, finally completing the project in 1851.
    In 3 years, only manual work, he created a very complicated watch. So complicated that 150 years later it took a team of more than 100 specialists to re-create it, and the didn't succeeds.

    The secrets of the clock were uncovered in 2004, when it was taken apart to build a replica for the Expo 2005 World’s Fair in Japan. Funded by the Japanese government, the Mannen Jimeishou replica took a team of over 100 specialists, including engineers from Seiko (which even recalled a retired watchmaker to help), an entire year to complete. Just taking the clock apart to analyzing its components and figure out the mechanics took five months.

  27. #27
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    I've always been a Seiko fan but some of the magical properties some folk ascribe to them is amusing to say the least and the fanboyism is even more rabid than from the Rolex boys IMO.

    Although I have owned a few vintage GS's and divers in the past I liked the fact that you could buy decent new watches from them for reasonable money.

    I've also noticed the prices of a lot of their moderately priced stuff going up a fair amount recently so they are not quite the value proposition they used to be, especially with many small boutique type offerings vying with them at that end of the market now.

    The lower end movements like the 7S26 etc are durable but not the most accurate even when new IME.

    I applaud them (amongst others) for the first auto chronographs, the 6138/9 and most still look great today although I am not really a fan of much of their modern output to be honest.

    As was mentioned earlier, it's true that nobody seems to mention Citizen in the same breath as Seiko although their lower priced offerings are cheaper and of course Miyota movements are well known.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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  28. #28
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    Another box of sushi.....




    The Citizen when released in 1988 was super expensive more than a Datejust IIRC. First electronic altimeter watch.

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    Last edited by gerard; 24th May 2020 at 15:56.

  29. #29
    The Swiss will be fine. Watches are being sold as a luxury item, an Apple Watch or a Seiko cannot fill the hole.

    Some of the lesser and cheaper brands may struggle.

  30. #30
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAFKARM View Post
    The Swiss will be fine. Watches are being sold as a luxury item, an Apple Watch or a Seiko cannot fill the hole.

    Some of the lesser and cheaper brands may struggle.
    Sorry I should be clear.....this is in my personal collection if a choice had to be made.
    Nothing to do with the Swiss watch making industry etc.

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    Last edited by gerard; 24th May 2020 at 20:08.

  31. #31
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    Sorry I should be clear.....this is in my personal collection if a choice had to be made.
    Nothing to do with the Swiss watch making industry etc.

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    Thanks for explaining this is based on your own preference! Some have got a bit hot under the collar. Internet posts can be open to interpretation and often will be.

  32. #32
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartynJC (UK) View Post
    Thanks for explaining this is based on your own preference! Some have got a bit hot under the collar. Internet posts can be open to interpretation and often will be.
    Sorry for any confusion I have caused....I thought I had made it clear in my first post.....

    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    ....but if I had to cull it would be the Seiko's that would pull the heart strings.
    Probably not clear enough.




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  33. #33
    Craftsman gerard's Avatar
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    Anyway the Swiss cheese has been found...or are they chocolates....


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  34. #34
    Master Papa Hotel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    Anyway the Swiss cheese has been found...or are they chocolates....


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    Mate, the contents of that box deserve a better camera!

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