Corona property prices

[Passenger]

Whilst that sounds good for your own property it's not really helpful for your kids trying to get on the ladder.
Would probably need to sell my own place and downsize in order to give them money for a decent deposit.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I'm afraid what you describe H is for many folks now the defacto UK paradigm, either sell up/ downsize to help your children or to fund your own care. It's a cruel model.

[Dave+63]

Whilst that sounds good for your own property it's not really helpful for your kids trying to get on the ladder.
Would probably need to sell my own place and downsize in order to give them money for a decent deposit.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Not really, they’d just get an inheritance early.

We have helped one daughter with a deposit, another (along with her husband) didn’t need any help and no doubt we will help the youngest too.

We are looking at downsizing at some point as we really don’t use most of the space we have now; once the youngest has gone, we will be using less still.

It seems pointless to make them wait until we’re gone before they get some of our cash and if we end up destitute, we’ll they’ll just have to keep us!

[Hood]

Not really, they’d just get an inheritance early.

We have helped one daughter with a deposit, another (along with her husband) didn’t need any help and no doubt we will help the youngest too.

We are looking at downsizing at some point as we really don’t use most of the space we have now; once the youngest has gone, we will be using less still.

It seems pointless to make them wait until we’re gone before they get some of our cash and if we end up destitute, we’ll they’ll just have to keep us!

Fully intend to give them it early. They just don't know it yet and have a fit when any mention of selling the house is brought up.

[beechcustom]

Fully intend to give them it early. They just don't know it yet and have a fit when any mention of selling the house is brought up.

Aren't there some tax implications with that though? I only ask because my accountant always mentions my parents can gift £5k to me per annum tax free which implies anything over that is taxable.

Regarding interest rate movements, it seems the markets have rolled back expectations on BofE rate reductions in 2024. I wouldn't expect anything this year tbh. Maybe q4 if nothing unforseen rears up on the global stage.

[Passenger]

Aren't there some tax implications with that though? I only ask because my accountant always mentions my parents can gift £5k to me per annum tax free which implies anything over that is taxable.

Regarding interest rate movements, it seems the markets have rolled back expectations on BofE rate reductions in 2024. I wouldn't expect anything this year tbh. Maybe q4 if nothing unforseen rears up on the global stage.

I think there's a real danger the Boe'll be to slow to start the rate climbdown just as they were too slow/ late on the way up. But hey we all got opinions. From memory, so could be wrong weren't the BOE wiseacres guessing-. forecasting that inflation would be within spitting distance of 2 per cent by this summer??

Sorry dunno about the tax implications on parent/ child gifts.

[noTAGlove]

Aren't there some tax implications with that though? I only ask because my accountant always mentions my parents can gift £5k to me per annum tax free which implies anything over that is taxable.

Gift as much as you want tax free. Just don’t die for 7 years.

[beechcustom]

Gift as much as you want tax free. Just don’t die for 7 years.

My understanding is the £5k per annum limit isn't subject to the 7 year lifespan.

[Hood]

Gift as much as you want tax free. Just don’t die for 7 years.

That was my understanding .

[mondie]

Whilst that sounds good for your own property it's not really helpful for your kids trying to get on the ladder.
Would probably need to sell my own place and downsize in order to give them money for a decent deposit.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

No, it's shit for everyone except the rich. The wealth effect is one of politician's oldest tricks but it is a disaster for the young. Wealth polarisation in Australia/US/UK is wild, when I was young I'd have to travel to Asia to observe vast differences between the have/have nots, now it's on my doorstep and worsening rapidly.

[hogthrob]

No tax is due on any gifts you give if you live for 7 years after giving them - unless the gift is part of a trust. This is known as the 7 year rule.

If you die within 7 years of giving a gift and there’s Inheritance Tax to pay on it, the amount of tax due after your death depends on when you gave it.

Gifts given in the 3 years before your death are taxed at 40%.

Source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trusts-and-inheritance-tax (my bold)

How Inheritance Tax works: thresholds, rules and allowances


Contents

Overview
Passing on a home
Rules on giving gifts
When someone living outside the UK dies

Rules on giving gifts

Inheritance Tax may have to be paid after your death on some gifts you’ve given.

Gifts given less than 7 years before you die may be taxed depending on:

who you give the gift to and their relationship to you
the value of the gift
when the gift was given

You can get professional advice from a solicitor or a tax adviser about what you can give away tax free during your lifetime.
What counts as a gift

Gifts include:

money
household and personal goods, for example, furniture, jewellery or antiques
a house, land or buildings
stocks and shares listed on the London Stock Exchange
unlisted shares you held for less than 2 years before your death

A gift can also include any money you lose when you sell something for less than it’s worth. For example, if you sell your house to your child for less than its market value, the difference in value counts as a gift.

​​Anything you leave in your will does not count as a gift but is part of your estate. Your estate is all your money, property and possessions left when you die. The value of your estate will be used to work out if Inheritance Tax needs to be paid.
Who does not pay Inheritance Tax

Some gifts are exempt from Inheritance Tax.

There’s no Inheritance Tax to pay on gifts between spouses or civil partners. You can give them as much as you like during your lifetime, as long as they:

live in the UK permanently
are legally married or in a civil partnership with you

There’s also no Inheritance Tax to pay on any gifts you give to charities or political parties.
Using allowances to give tax free gifts

Each tax year, you can also give away some money or possessions free of Inheritance Tax. How much is tax free depends on which allowances you use.
Annual exemption

You can give away a total of £3,000 worth of gifts each tax year without them being added to the value of your estate. This is known as your ‘annual exemption’.

You can give gifts or money up to £3,000 to one person or split the £3,000 between several people.

You can carry any unused annual exemption forward to the next tax year - but only for one tax year.

The tax year runs from 6 April to 5 April the following year.
Example

In the 2021 to 2022 tax year, Mark gave £2,000 to his daughter Jane. If he died within 7 years of the gift, this would use £2,000 of his annual exemption.

In the following 2022 to 2023 tax year, Mark gave £4,000 to his other daughter Sarah. If Mark died within 7 years of the gift, this would use his annual exemption of £3,000 plus the £1,000 of annual exemption left over from the previous tax year.

Even if Mark dies within 7 years of giving these gifts, there’s no Inheritance Tax to pay.
Small gift allowance

You can give as many gifts of up to £250 per person as you want each tax year, as long as you have not used another allowance on the same person.

Birthday or Christmas gifts you give from your regular income are exempt from Inheritance Tax.
Gifts for weddings or civil partnerships

Each tax year, you can give a tax free gift to someone who is getting married or starting a civil partnership. You can give up to:

£5,000 to a child
£2,500 to a grandchild or great-grandchild
£1,000 to any other person

If you’re giving gifts to the same person, you can combine a wedding gift allowance with any other allowance, except for the small gift allowance.

For example, you can give your child a wedding gift of £5,000 as well as £3,000 using your annual exemption in the same tax year.
If you make regular payments

You can make regular payments to another person, for example to help with their living costs. There’s no limit to how much you can give tax free, as long as:

you can afford the payments after meeting your usual living costs
you pay from your regular monthly income

These are known as ‘normal expenditure out of income’. They can include:

paying rent for your child
paying into a savings account for a child under 18
giving financial support to an elderly relative

If you’re giving gifts to the same person, you can combine ‘normal expenditure out of income’ with any other allowance, except for the small gift allowance.

For example, you can give your child a regular payment of £60 a month (a total of £720 a year) as well as using your annual exemption of £3,000 in the same tax year.
The 7 year rule

No tax is due on any gifts you give if you live for 7 years after giving them - unless the gift is part of a trust. This is known as the 7 year rule.

If you die within 7 years of giving a gift and there’s Inheritance Tax to pay on it, the amount of tax due after your death depends on when you gave it.

Gifts given in the 3 years before your death are taxed at 40%.

Gifts given 3 to 7 years before your death are taxed on a sliding scale known as ‘taper relief’.

Taper relief only applies if the total value of gifts made in the 7 years before you die is over the £325,000 tax-free threshold.
Taper relief
Years between gift and death Rate of tax on the gift
3 to 4 years 32%
4 to 5 years 24%
5 to 6 years 16%
6 to 7 years 8%
7 or more 0%
Giving gifts you still benefit from

If you give something away but still benefit from it (a ‘gift with reservation’), it will count towards the value of your estate.

Gifts with reservation include:

giving your home to a relative but still living there
giving away a caravan but still using it for free for your holidays
giving away a valuable painting but still displaying it in your house

Read further guidance on when a gift with reservation counts towards the estate’s value.
Keeping records of gifts you’ve given

The person who deals with your estate will need to work out what gifts you gave in the 7 years before your death. You should keep the following records:

what you gave and who you gave it to
the value of the gift
when you gave it

How Inheritance Tax on a gift is paid

Any Inheritance Tax due on gifts is usually paid by the estate, unless you give away more than £325,000 in gifts in the 7 years before your death. Once you’ve given away more than £325,000, anyone who gets a gift from you in those 7 years will have to pay Inheritance Tax on their gift.
Example

Sally died on 1 July 2022. She was not married or in a civil partnership when she died.

She gave 3 gifts in the 9 years before her death:

£50,000 to her brother 9 years before her death
£325,000 to her sister 4 years and 2 months before her death
£100,000 to her friend 3 years before her death

There’s no Inheritance Tax to pay on the £50,000 gift to her brother as it was given more than 7 years before she died.

There’s also no Inheritance Tax to pay on the £325,000 she gave her sister, as this is within the Inheritance Tax threshold.

But her friend must pay Inheritance Tax on her £100,000 gift at a rate of 32%, as it’s above the tax-free threshold and was given 3 years before Sally died. The Inheritance Tax due is £32,000.

Sally’s remaining estate was valued at £400,000, so the estate would pay Inheritance Tax of 40% on £400,000 (£160,000).

Read further guidance on when a gift counts towards the estate’s value, how to value it and how much Inheritance Tax may be due.

[mr noble]

Can anyone explain the point of family trusts, if there’s still tax to pay when money/assets are removed from the trust, whereas there’s no tax to pay on the same funds/assets if they’re gifted 7 years before death?

[wileeeeeey]

Can anyone explain the point of family trusts, if there’s still tax to pay when money/assets are removed from the trust, whereas there’s no tax to pay on the same funds/assets if they’re gifted 7 years before death?

We’re going to go with one for a single low value BTL due to not being able to trust the person it would otherwise be gifted to.

He would find a way to remortgage it and fall into arrears so the trust ensures he can’t do that, but costs.

[Passenger]

We’re going to go with one for a single low value BTL due to not being able to trust the person it would otherwise be gifted to.

He would find a way to remortgage it and fall into arrears so the trust ensures he can’t do that, but costs.

Didn't have you down as BTLer W...no criticism obvs as I'm in it myself.

[wileeeeeey]

Didn't have you down as BTLer W...no criticism obvs as I'm in it myself.

It’s not mine, it’s my mum’s ex local flat. I will be the idiot in charge of it, just not the beneficiary. The beneficiary won’t know I’m in charge and will need to submit requests to the trust, which then go to me, and I reply via the trust who he thinks are solicitors. Either way he can never own that flat and when he dies it will go to his kids.

I would love a BTL but you need about £150k for a flat around here and then we’re both higher rate tax payers so it doesn’t make sense. In 15-20 years we’ll remortgage for a BTL and it can stay rented until we want to downsize into it or let it be the first property for the kids when they’re adults.

[Passenger]

It’s not mine, it’s my mum’s ex local flat. I will be the idiot in charge of it, just not the beneficiary. The beneficiary won’t know I’m in charge and will need to submit requests to the trust, which then go to me, and I reply via the trust who he thinks are solicitors. Either way he can never own that flat and when he dies it will go to his kids.

I would love a BTL but you need about £150k for a flat around here and then we’re both higher rate tax payers so it doesn’t make sense. In 15-20 years we’ll remortgage for a BTL and it can stay rented until we want to downsize into it or let it be the first property for the kids when they’re adults.

Ah I see. Well best of luck with the IIC ing.

[Montello]

It’s not mine, it’s my mum’s ex local flat. I will be the idiot in charge of it, just not the beneficiary. The beneficiary won’t know I’m in charge and will need to submit requests to the trust, which then go to me, and I reply via the trust who he thinks are solicitors. Either way he can never own that flat and when he dies it will go to his kids.

I would love a BTL but you need about £150k for a flat around here and then we’re both higher rate tax payers so it doesn’t make sense. In 15-20 years we’ll remortgage for a BTL and it can stay rented until we want to downsize into it or let it be the first property for the kids when they’re adults.

Interesting set up ... I assume the beneficiary is a sibling with loose financial skills ...???

[wileeeeeey]

Interesting set up ... I assume the beneficiary is a sibling with loose financial skills ...???

Exactly that

[Montello]

Exactly that

I have one of those although not a bad as yours I suspect ...

[Wolfie]

Whilst that sounds good for your own property it's not really helpful for your kids trying to get on the ladder.
Would probably need to sell my own place and downsize in order to give them money for a decent deposit.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

How do you tweak it to support younger people…. Getting on the ladder is a real nightmare prospect for my kids…

[mr noble]

I always assumed a trust was a kind of tax dodge, but it seems in some instances you can end up paying lots of tax via a trust which would be totally avoided if the assets were just gifted 7 years prior to death.

If person A puts £1m into a trust for their kids. They then die, the 2 kids get £500k each. But if they want to remove some of that cash to spend, they have to pay up to 45% tax on it. It’s treated as regular income for the kids.

But person A already paid tax on that cash before they put it into the trust.

It’s a classic case of government double taxation.

I can’t see the benefit of a trust for one’s children, other than in a situation like Wiley has where you want to gift the assets but not allow them to be spent, yet/ever.

[mr noble]

Or in my example above, is it the inheritance tax that has been avoided?

Its all ridiculously complicated.

[dandanthewatchman]

Do not do inheritance tax planning from advice on the internet. Many professionals can get it wrong as can be very complicated. Get a STEP qualified lawyer and do not whinge about the costs. As I say to people - you only die once, do it properly


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[Dave+63]

The way I read it is that the trust is a separate entity and no longer the property of the person who puts the assets in. That way, should the giver die, there is no inheritance tax to pay however large the sum.

The beneficiaries do not necessarily have free access to the money and, subject to certain conditions, people can be added or removed as beneficiaries. A huge property (stately home etc) can therefore be kept in the family without being subject to huge amounts of inheritance tax.

Some may call it class privilege but someone has to look after these estates which no doubt cost an absolute fortune and not a responsibility I’d like to bear the burden of.

But don’t take what I’ve written as gospel, I’m usually wrong.

[dandanthewatchman]

The way I read it is that the trust is a separate entity and no longer the property of the person who puts the assets in. That way, should the giver die, there is no inheritance tax to pay however large the sum.

The beneficiaries do not necessarily have free access to the money and, subject to certain conditions, people can be added or removed as beneficiaries. A huge property (stately home etc) can therefore be kept in the family without being subject to huge amounts of inheritance tax.

Some may call it class privilege but someone has to look after these estates which no doubt cost an absolute fortune and not a responsibility I’d like to bear the burden of.

But don’t take what I’ve written as gospel, I’m usually wrong.

Afraid it is not that simple. There will usually be tax charges when an asset is settled into a trust.


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[Montello]

Or in my example above, is it the inheritance tax that has been avoided?

Its all ridiculously complicated.

I fear trusts are a matter beyond the scope of what we can cover here and I have never been able to understand them ... although I have not tried that hard as I don't have kids or wealthy parents.

What I have worked out though is that IHT isn't paid by the very wealthy ... only those caught in the middle. I bet most estates valued at £1m - £5m pay IHT at some level but virtually none valued over £5m pay any ... (arbitrary figure but you get the point)

My understanding is that IHT is an optional tax only paid by those who don't trust their kids ...

[gunner]

Afraid it is not that simple. There will usually be tax charges when an asset is settled into a trust.

Such as stamp duty if the asset is a house/land?

[dandanthewatchman]

Such as stamp duty if the asset is a house/land?

Capital gains tax. Deemed disposal. This area is full of unintended consequences


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[Mj2k]

Nobody told the London rental market that it is only ever onwards and upwards.

https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandp...-b1144821.html

Bet you’ve been having some good furious w@nks to a minor downturn given your desire for an proper drop. Guessing that’s why you’ve been so quiet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mr noble]

Nobody told the London rental market that it is only ever onwards and upwards.

https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandp...-b1144821.html

No idea where “Chestertons” got their data from for that article. There’s no real link given, but it’s totally at odds with the data that all the big mainstream market analysts are providing.

They’re all saying London rents are over 10% up over the last 12 months.


Here’s one example.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2515557.html

[beechcustom]

'The Property Podcast' (that the NoGlove bloke considers to be highly subjective) have started reporting that rent increases are slowing down markedly across the UK.

[dougair]

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...rease-recorded

‘In England, the biggest rise was in London, which already had the UK’s highest rent. The average monthly cost faced by a tenant was up by 10.6% year-on-year at £2,035.’

[Montello]

Data from the ONS, not an industry player so no agenda.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68620204

Politicians bashing landlords is seeing exodus from the sector creating a shortage, the dynamic is so obvious it’s mind boggling.

[noTAGlove]

As the article says, during Covid offers of +20% were common, and now many areas seeing significant falls, up to 33% quoted in the article.

Between the offers over during Covid and offers under now, 35% falls for large houses in the Home Counties does not appear uncommon.

Nice to see an article bucking the usual trend of fluff pumped out by those with vested interests.

Has the home counties bubble burst?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9...2801e74cf1c402

[Passenger]

I love articles like this. Chiefly because it makes me realise how fortunate we were to find our well constructed 4 bedroom detached house, on approximately a quarter acre, in a lovely village with low to no crime, choice of beaches from only 10 minutes away and Cartagena with it's rich history, ancient port, Roman ruins and Amphitheatre, hospitals, schools, restaurants, museums just on the doorstep, 20 minutes away. It's a very liveable set up. It's positive, good mentally, to be mindful, count ones blessings.

Early Happy Easter everyone. Our lad broke up yesterday for the Easter holidays. The Mum's organised the egg hunt last night in the village for the Pequeno Perineros children's group. I was home making the chicken dinner, still no one brought me any chocolate. Grrrr.

Looking at the article it does seem the HC's have taken quite a knock mainly though I think it's down to the current mortgage situation, much depends I reckon on where interest rates are in a year or 2. Amazing how even a million doesn't get you all that much outside London. For perspective average UK Lifetime earning are under 600, 000 gbp.

[gunner]

All the Times article does is show where people are most unrealistic about pricing.

20 areas where people overestimate the value of their house by 14-29% and 20 where they get it within 5%.

To infer valuation falls is somewhat disingenuous.

[Thewatchbloke]

I love articles like this. Chiefly because it makes me realise how fortunate we were to find our well constructed 4 bedroom detached house, on approximately a quarter acre, in a lovely village with low to no crime, choice of beaches from only 10 minutes away and Cartagena with it's rich history, ancient port, Roman ruins and Amphitheatre, hospitals, schools, restaurants, museums just on the doorstep, 20 minutes away. It's a very liveable set up. It's positive, good mentally, to be mindful, count ones blessings.

Early Happy Easter everyone.

I love humblebrags like this.

[Hood]

I love articles like this. Chiefly because it makes me realise how fortunate we were to find our well constructed 4 bedroom detached house, on approximately a quarter acre, in a lovely village with low to no crime, choice of beaches from only 10 minutes away and Cartagena with it's rich history, ancient port, Roman ruins and Amphitheatre, hospitals, schools, restaurants, museums just on the doorstep, 20 minutes away. It's a very liveable set up. It's positive, good mentally, to be mindful, count ones blessings.

Early Happy Easter everyone.

I'm coming out there P
Gimmie 2 years
Any golf courses?

[Passenger]

I'm coming out there P
Gimmie 2 years
Any golf courses?

Plenty H, I'm no hand but Mrs P has pretensions to the game. Let me know nearer the time and we can try and hook up.

[beechcustom]

I love articles like this. Chiefly because it makes me realise how fortunate we were to find our well constructed 4 bedroom detached house, on approximately a quarter acre, in a lovely village with low to no crime, choice of beaches from only 10 minutes away and Cartagena with it's rich history, ancient port, Roman ruins and Amphitheatre, hospitals, schools, restaurants, museums just on the doorstep, 20 minutes away. It's a very liveable set up. It's positive, good mentally, to be mindful, count ones blessings.
.

Sounds idyllic! Think I may have a new retirement goal :-)

[Passenger]

Sounds idyllic! Think I may have a new retirement goal :-)

I wanted to try and make the point that it is possible to live well for less, and somewhere nice at that. We got the house, added the pool, the terrace and 50 sq m porch, you've got to have shade! on the land to the rear of the house, it'd been left as scrub ground with a couple of neglected fruit trees and was crying out to be repurposed like this, ball park 220, 000 gbp...that was the lot.

[noTAGlove]

I love articles like this. Chiefly because it makes me realise how fortunate we were to find our well constructed 4 bedroom detached house, on approximately a quarter acre, in a lovely village with low to no crime, choice of beaches from only 10 minutes away and Cartagena with it's rich history, ancient port, Roman ruins and Amphitheatre, hospitals, schools, restaurants, museums just on the doorstep, 20 minutes away. It's a very liveable set up. It's positive, good mentally, to be mindful, count ones blessings.

Sounds nice for retirement and alternating with the U.K., but what are those in their 30s and 40s going to do?

I work with a good few Spanish professionals who fled to the U.K. because of lack of opportunities. Only the retired really care about the weather, and even then I would still value four proper seasons.

People need to earn a proper crust and kids need educating. It is not Madrid or Barcelona with all the opportunities that presents. Anyway, the B word has buggered it all up.

Sounds nice for winters when you have a few quid in the bank or half decent pension. For everyone else the grind of the U.K. is your best bet.

[Passenger]

Sounds nice for retirement and alternating with the U.K., but what are those in their 30s and 40s going to do?

I work with a good few Spanish professionals who fled to the U.K. because of lack of opportunities. Only the retired really care about the weather, and even then I would still value four proper seasons.

People need to earn a proper crust and kids need educating. It is not Madrid or Barcelona with all the opportunities that presents. Anyway, the B word has buggered it all up.

Sounds nice for winters when you have a few quid in the bank or half decent pension. For everyone else the grind of the U.K. is your best bet.

Sure it's always going to be different seahorses for watercourses I get that...In a sense we were doubly, TRIPLY lucky, me and the wife both in sales in London soon realised long term despite the earning potential it wasn't sustainable/ liveable, not if we wanted to stay sane and started kicking around the idea that it made no sense to spend your best years working for it, had to be another way, fiat is loaned into existence as debt after all... We realised the UK property market/ BTL is a rentiers dream, this was back in the early 90's, also serendipitously found this little corner of the world y way of a couple of holidays, then me getting stabbed a hundred yards from the expensive, compact, London flat was another mind opener/ powerful motivation...A few other experiences along the way, tried commercial/ industrial Real Estate in Philly for a year plus, maybe learned something there...I think we perhaps comparatively jammed rather a lot into our 20's, 30's, came here at 40 and 42, with the youngling about 9 months old.

Obviously it's not going to suit everyone I see, can understand that. But it's a darn good European base for us, maybe for others and there's always other places to visit, holiday. May come a time we fancy a longer stay somewhere else.

4 proper Seasons? Really. Hardly ever snows in Blighty any more, except the very highest bits. Isn´t it mostly 7 or 8 months of cold rainy season... I´m kidding- tongue in cheek.

[hogthrob]

Plenty H, I'm no hand but Mrs P has pretensions to the game. Let me know nearer the time and we can try and hook up.

"Hookup culture is one that accepts and encourages casual sex encounters, including one-night stands and other related activity, without necessarily including emotional intimacy, bonding or a committed relationship."

[Passenger]

"Hookup culture is one that accepts and encourages casual sex encounters, including one-night stands and other related activity, without necessarily including emotional intimacy, bonding or a committed relationship."

sheesh, truly every day a school day...I meant for a drink, a chat, perhaps a bite to eat.