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Thread: UK State Pension - the future

  1. #51
    Grand Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    If you are young and think that the state pension is rubbish (which it is) then surely the common sense thing to do is to start preparing for your retirement. So invest in whatever you think will serve your purposes best.
    Have you considered why the young don’t pay enough into their pension pots early enough?

    The answer is blindingly simple. House prices are at almost unattainable levels for first time buyers - more so in areas like London. Add to that the lenders no longer doing 100% mortgages and what you have is young people having to pile away hundreds per month towards a house deposit. When I speak to young people, getting onto the housing ladder is their number one priority - followed strangely by repayment of student loans

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tz-uk73 View Post
    Let’s be honest, there is little to no state pension already is there. What is it, £500 or so per month? That won’t even cover my council tax, electric and gas. So hardly a pension is it really, but still I will be mightily jacked off if there was any push to take that away. I’ve worked 30 years so far on PAYE without a day of unpaid leave (aka unpaid tax). I have a measly private pension and can’t afford to make a material change to that. I would hope the country would rise up and get all a bit punchy. Can you really imagine our European brothers and sisters putting up with this suggestion? Hardly! They riot over a few cents on petrol prices.
    It’s quite a bit higher than that actually.
    The income is actually the equivalent that could be bought using a fund of £170k so it’s not to be sniffed at despite Mick saying it’s crap.

    It will continue however it may only commence at age 70 in yrs to come and tax rises to pay for it may be likely.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    I hear what you're saying (a bit) but imagine saving like hell, doing without stuff to have a good life, penny pinching for your future and turning up your toes in your mid fifties. How pi$$ed would you be theoretically (quite, I think is the answer) and it does happen, often.
    Except you would leave a spouses pension for your widow, or if it was a personal pension there would be a fund for the family to use, and potentially tax free if you died young.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    It’s quite a bit higher than that actually.
    The income is actually the equivalent that could be bought using a fund of £170k so it’s not to be sniffed at despite Mick saying it’s crap.

    It will continue however it may only commence at age 70 in yrs to come and tax rises to pay for it may be likely.
    Interesting. I had £134 in my head so that’s slightly better news. Thanks

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    Going by past and present statistics that wouldnt work as the majority of immigrant workers over the last 20 years or so have been low paid and therefore received benefits like Housing Benefit, Tax Credits etc so took/taking instead of contributing.

    .
    Where would those past and present statistics come from? I would be interested in the source.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Have you considered why the young don’t pay enough into their pension pots early enough?

    The answer is blindingly simple. House prices are at almost unattainable levels for first time buyers - more so in areas like London. Add to that the lenders no longer doing 100% mortgages and what you have is young people having to pile away hundreds per month towards a house deposit. When I speak to young people, getting onto the housing ladder is their number one priority - followed strangely by repayment of student loans
    You seem intent on starting an argument.

    Yes it is common sense for young people to pile away hundreds of pounds per month towards a house deposit and that is why I said - "So invest in whatever you think will serve your purposes best." We are in agreement for crying out loud.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    It’s quite a bit higher than that actually.
    The income is actually the equivalent that could be bought using a fund of £170k so it’s not to be sniffed at despite Mick saying it’s crap.

    It will continue however it may only commence at age 70 in yrs to come and tax rises to pay for it may be likely.
    It is crap if you depend on it for retirement. My state pension is £674 every four weeks and you try living on that. I am fortunate that I have a good Royal Mail pension and when I retired I owned 4 houses, all fully paid for and hence I have a good retirement. However the message needs to go out, you need more than the state pension when you retire.

  8. #58
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    UK State Pension - the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    If you are young and think that the state pension is rubbish (which it is) then surely the common sense thing to do is to start preparing for your retirement. So invest in whatever you think will serve your purposes best.
    I’m not intent on starting an argument at all Mick, but when your opening gambit on the thread is to say the state pension is rubbish I think you need corrected. It’s the same pension a £170k fund could buy and £170k isn’t rubbish? Sure you need something in addition - we agree on that.

    My comments about saving for house deposits compared to how you or I had to is relevant surely? Kids now have to save a huge amount more proportionately towards a house deposit than we ever had to. Anyway. We are agreed it’s a huge problem as a whole generation will be cap in hand at retirement in a couple of decades. Scary times.
    Last edited by RustyBin5; 11th May 2020 at 21:22.

  9. #59
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    Mick with his gold plated royal mail pension which is no longer in existence for anyone at royal mail nevermind elsewhere.

    Mick with his multiple properties during an unprecedented boom in house prices with hugely advantageous tax treatment for landlords. Tax treatment been scaled back and house prices starting at a much higher level relative to average earnings.

    Everyone should just do what you did though Mick and they're "architects of their own misfortunes" if they don't eh.

  10. #60
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    We all pick the low hanging fruit which is low during our time. Every generation has opportunities and it is down to them to grab them. Some grab and some don't, it's their choice.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    You would be dead and thus unconcerned.
    Well obviously Smithee, you whopper, but to scrimp and do without a bit of a life and die early isn't the ideal way to spend your limited time on this earth as I see it.

    "Come on dear, switch off the fire and the lights. Hurry up and eat all the celery you've saved all week. It's time to go to bed to save our lives and our money. I'll go and check the car's locked".........."Oh wait a minute..........we don't own a car do we, silly me....."

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Except you would leave a spouses pension for your widow, or if it was a personal pension there would be a fund for the family to use, and potentially tax free if you died young.
    Spoken like a true Scotsman.
    When you bend down to pick up that 50p coin you've just dropped....make sure it doesn't hit you on the back of the head.

  13. #63
    Grand Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    Spoken like a true Scotsman.
    When you bend down to pick up that 50p coin you've just dropped....make sure it doesn't hit you on the back of the head.
    Spoken like a family man I think. More concerned about their future than my own.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    We all pick the low hanging fruit which is low during our time. Every generation has opportunities and it is down to them to grab them. Some grab and some don't, it's their choice.
    The financial demands of recent generations (tuition fees, house prices ..) are significantly above what your and (to a lesser extent) my generation had. That low hanging fruit has been already picked for many.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tz-uk73 View Post
    Interesting. I had £134 in my head so that’s slightly better news. Thanks
    You can add 2.5% onto that £168ish figure, pension has just gone up.

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  16. #66
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    There are two basic rates of OAP for males; a cheaper one for those born before April 1951, and an enhanced one for those born after. A difference of about £40 per week iirc.

    Guess which one I'm on!
    Last edited by unclealec; 12th May 2020 at 16:34.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclealec View Post
    There are two basic rates of OAP for males; a cheaper one for those born before 1952, and an enhanced one for those born after. A difference of about £20 per week iirc.

    Guess which one I'm on!
    Were you contracted out at any time ?

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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    Well obviously Smithee, you whopper, but to scrimp and do without a bit of a life and die early isn't the ideal way to spend your limited time on this earth as I see it.

    "Come on dear, switch off the fire and the lights. Hurry up and eat all the celery you've saved all week. It's time to go to bed to save our lives and our money. I'll go and check the car's locked".........."Oh wait a minute..........we don't own a car do we, silly me....."
    You present it as all or nothing - as if everything has to go into savings/pensions or nothing goes in.

    If you are on minimum wage I can understand why beyond NEST you have very little but something a big odd about people wearing rolexes saying they are unable to put anything aside..

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD200 View Post
    Were you contracted out at any time ?

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    I was, but that doesn't affect the two rates:
    Basic State Pension if you were born before April 6th 1951 (male) or April 6th 1953 (female). The basic pension is £134-25 per week.

    New State Pension for those of pensionable age born after the dates given above; the New State Pension is £175.20 per week.
    Basically, if I had been born 38 weeks overdue I would now be £40 per week better off. Mind you, I would have owed my mother quite a sum!

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclealec View Post
    I was, but that doesn't affect the two rates:
    Basic State Pension if you were born before April 6th 1951 (male) or April 6th 1953 (female). The basic pension is £134-25 per week.

    New State Pension for those of pensionable age born after the dates given above; the New State Pension is £175.20 per week.
    Basically, if I had been born 38 weeks overdue I would now be £40 per week better off. Mind you, I would have owed my mother quite a sum!
    I was contracted out too and my cope figure is £44.09 but my state pension forecast is about 70p more than the average.
    I got a shock when I looked at my NI record and discovered I'd been given credits when 15 and at school.

    From 1975 16, 17 and 18 year olds were given credits if they stayed in full time
    education, approved training or apprenticeship to protect their state pension position.
    These credits were ended on 6 April 2010 because the reduction in the number of
    qualifying years required for a full basic State Pension at that time meant that they
    were no longer needed


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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    Where would those past and present statistics come from? I would be interested in the source.
    Looking out of the window!!

    The vast majority of immigrant workers go for low paid jobs. There are plenty of reasons for this such as those low paid jobs pay more than if they had stayed in their own countries (and at least they get jobs here!!). Language barriers would make a difference too. Fruit pickers, hospitality, supermarkets, care industry. They all have a large amount of immigrant workers and they are among the lowest pay sectors. Based on that fact the workers will or could be eligible for Tax credits, housing benefit etc.

    I haven't a problem with that but saying that immigrant workers will save the country by paying taxes is just not true

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    We all pick the low hanging fruit which is low during our time. Every generation has opportunities and it is down to them to grab them. Some grab and some don't, it's their choice.
    Where would you suggest young people (maybe 20-30 age group) should be making their money at the moment, given that they havent the easy property route you had?

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    Looking out of the window!!

    The vast majority of immigrant workers go for low paid jobs. There are plenty of reasons for this such as those low paid jobs pay more than if they had stayed in their own countries (and at least they get jobs here!!). Language barriers would make a difference too. Fruit pickers, hospitality, supermarkets, care industry. They all have a large amount of immigrant workers and they are among the lowest pay sectors. Based on that fact the workers will or could be eligible for Tax credits, housing benefit etc.

    I haven't a problem with that but saying that immigrant workers will save the country by paying taxes is just not true
    Wow, this is abhorrent and completely factually incorrect.

    See https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/rece...3-0e250df6dbba "The average UK-based migrant from Europe contributed approximately £2,300 more to UK public finances in 2016/17 than the average UK adult."

    See https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...ry-on-doing-so "According to the government’s latest review on immigration, by the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC), immigrants contribute more to the public purse on average than native-born Britons do. "

    Please don't post any further on the topic, I certainly won't be.

  24. #74
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    Universal basic income is the answer. God knows how much it must cost to do the means testing that we do already, although as has previously been mentioned, it does put many off claiming that to which they are entitled.

    WASPI women just grind my gears with their moaning. They wanted equality, and they got it. Some of that is good and some of it bad. I am having to retire later. You won’t hear me moaning about it.

    We could Also make the pension fairer by using something similar to SIMD in Scotland, a deprivation index. Poor people, who generally live shorter lives, usually live in the worst areas. We could be taking less money from them in contributions. This system works at data zone level. Postcodes roughly fit into data zones.

  25. #75
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    I’m 53, already “retired” (ill health) and expect to get b&gger all state pension, when I eventually reach the current required state pension age. It’s unfortunate and a pain but one that I can at least still amend my expenditure and investment plans to manage the situation.

    Others will be much less fortunate than me.


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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    Where would you suggest young people (maybe 20-30 age group) should be making their money at the moment, given that they havent the easy property route you had?
    I once worked out that the average rate of interest I paid on my mortgages from 1971 to 2005 was 11%. It was 15% for a few months and the payments were horrific. However having said that, the life saver was that the price escalation on property was virtually non stop, but it was far from easy. If it was easy, every old couple in the UK would own a string of houses.

  27. #77
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    I think I maybe the opportunities for today's youth are things like crypto, being a youtuber, social media, low cost of setting up an online business as opposed to bricks and mortar etc

  28. #78
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    I’m not counting of receiving anything.. if I do it will be a bonus


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  29. #79
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    If and when my wife and I do (notional NRD 67 or so), we shall pass it on to the kids.
    Last edited by Skyman; 12th May 2020 at 17:30.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    Looking out of the window!!
    Based on no facts whatsoever then?

  31. #81
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    We’ve now left the U.K., and my wife contacted HMRC to find out how to pay her contributions from NL as she has 25 years of contributions in, and would like to draw her pension at retirement.

    so HMRC explained that she can only make Class 2 contributions , but after 8 years of this she’ll be entitled to a full State Pension at 65. Great, rock on etc. She submitted all the paperwork, then after 7 months was told she had submitted the wrong paperwork, so we submitted everything again, this time just 6 months wait to get an invoice from HMRC for £156!!

    Yes, apparently a full year of pension contributions is just £156.

    This is simply crazy, they could charge 10x this and it would still be fair. No wonder the State Pension is kept so low.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by robcuk View Post
    We’ve now left the U.K., and my wife contacted HMRC to find out how to pay her contributions from NL as she has 25 years of contributions in, and would like to draw her pension at retirement.

    so HMRC explained that she can only make Class 2 contributions , but after 8 years of this she’ll be entitled to a full State Pension at 65. Great, rock on etc. She submitted all the paperwork, then after 7 months was told she had submitted the wrong paperwork, so we submitted everything again, this time just 6 months wait to get an invoice from HMRC for £156!!

    Yes, apparently a full year of pension contributions is just £156.

    This is simply crazy, they could charge 10x this and it would still be fair. No wonder the State Pension is kept so low.
    If she isn't employed she should be paying Class 3 not Class 2.

    She is paying the rate appropriate for a self employed earner in the UK, it is set at a low rate for a small business with minimal profits. The rate she pays is usually supplemented by a Class 4 NIC charge on profits.

    Class 3 NICs, which it seems from your description of her circumstances she should be paying, are £15.30 a week.

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    I think I maybe the opportunities for today's youth are things like crypto, being a youtuber, social media, low cost of setting up an online business as opposed to bricks and mortar etc

    That is basically the same as heading to hollywood to be discovered... sure someone makes it but...

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    I once worked out that the average rate of interest I paid on my mortgages from 1971 to 2005 was 11%. It was 15% for a few months and the payments were horrific. However having said that, the life saver was that the price escalation on property was virtually non stop, but it was far from easy. If it was easy, every old couple in the UK would own a string of houses.

    Yes, I understand what you are saying. I too saw the heady highs of 15% interest rates. But now that there is no easy money for mortgages and property price are hugely increased in real terms I think that boat has sailed for the time being. My question was a serious one though, not a knock. I'd be interested in your take on existing low hanging fruit for the current young generation

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    Based on no facts whatsoever then?
    Based on real life observation. Far better than so called "research"

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by anton863 View Post
    Wow, this is abhorrent and completely factually incorrect.

    See https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/rece...3-0e250df6dbba "The average UK-based migrant from Europe contributed approximately £2,300 more to UK public finances in 2016/17 than the average UK adult."

    See https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...ry-on-doing-so "According to the government’s latest review on immigration, by the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC), immigrants contribute more to the public purse on average than native-born Britons do. "

    Please don't post any further on the topic, I certainly won't be.
    With the government unable it seems to provide numbers for deaths where covid is the actual cause (in the middle of a pandemic...) And also can't extrapolate the amounts of benefits (working or otherwise) going to immigrant workers, I don't believe the figures in the report you mentioned. And the Economist was just regurgitating the previous "report".

    Fact is there are no proper figures available so no-one can be sure. What I see in the south is what I see.

    I have no agenda but you seem to have. We will just have to agree to not agree.

    Not your place to tell me were and what I can post though

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    Where would you suggest young people (maybe 20-30 age group) should be making their money at the moment, given that they havent the easy property route you had?
    The money most of the younger generation will end up with will sadly be inherited from us in the form of property and portfolios. Interestingly the demise of the final salary pension from many sectors will see at least some pension pots having residual value and left to family (after tax) on death.

    As for low hanging fruit.... not much about for the youth. Entrepreneurs will always find a way but no penalty kick opportunities I can see tbh.

  38. #88
    I have always had the view that if it were a private company the directors would have been in prison a long time ago, how can they take your money on the promise of a pension at a certain age and at a given level, and then just change it, in the UK we just roll over and accept it, in other countries messing with the state pension causes strikes and riots.

    Funny that the state recognise the need for a pension large enough to sustain a reasonable standard of living for its employees.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    Yes, I understand what you are saying. I too saw the heady highs of 15% interest rates. But now that there is no easy money for mortgages and property price are hugely increased in real terms I think that boat has sailed for the time being. My question was a serious one though, not a knock. I'd be interested in your take on existing low hanging fruit for the current young generation
    Well for a start, quite a few of them will inherit from the deceased parents. I have 3 sons, ranging from 38yrs - 46yrs and one of them owns 3 houses with only a small amount left on one mortgage and the other two also both own their houses and are piling their money into killing off their mortgages within a few years. They regard 25 year mortgages as madness. They also pay into a pension fund.

    I have two grandchildren at Uni and both of them are lined up for some very well paid jobs and they are both optimistic for their futures.

    I will admit that I am working full time on retirement and I spend 5 months in Spain and a couple of months on cruises and visiting European countries and I have deliberately tried to forget about the business world. However, if you have 1000 people dropped into any given society, some will rise to the top and some will linger at the bottom. It's down to education, hard work and admittedly, a little bit of luck.

  40. #90
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    So your latest advice is to have rich parents for the inheritance. Have you thought about writing a book Mick?

  41. #91
    It would be political suicide to end or means test the state pension, hence the age of the state pension will keep increasing. There's been articles and reports as back as far back as the 1970's saying the state pension is unaffordable and will have to soon be means tested. Government actuaries will just work out the most cost effective way of keeping the cost down which is pretty much pushing back the retirement age which is what they have been doing till now.

  42. #92
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    So just to clarify, the "low hanging fruit" for those in their 20's and 30's is to hope that their parents are rich and leave them a lot of money? I might have misunderstood....

    Really bad luck to those whose parents have a lot of money but decide to spend it on cruises and travelling around Europe or give it to the cats home or spend it on care home fees.

    Really really bad luck to those who don't have wealthy parents who couldn't pay for the best education and weren't qualified for the best paying jobs despite how hard they worked and so end up "lingering at the bottom" despite no fault of their own!

    I don't describe making regular pension contributions and paying off my mortgage as "low hanging fruit" more as prudent financial planning for those who can afford to

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    What I see in the south is what I see.
    Well there you have it - all the research that needs to be done.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post

    Fact is there are no proper figures available so no-one can be sure. What I see in the south is what I see.
    But that isn't what you said, you said
    "Going by past and present statistics that wouldn't work as the majority of immigrant workers over the last 20 years or so have been low paid and therefore received benefits like Housing Benefit, Tax Credits etc so took/taking instead of contributing."

    So what is it then?
    If it is it just your opinion backed up by nothing then fair enough, you can believe what you want to believe, just don't pretend your opinion is fact.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny View Post
    It would be political suicide to end or means test the state pension, hence the age of the state pension will keep increasing. There's been articles and reports as back as far back as the 1970's saying the state pension is unaffordable and will have to soon be means tested. Government actuaries will just work out the most cost effective way of keeping the cost down which is pretty much pushing back the retirement age which is what they have been doing till now.
    If you look at the last actuaries report, page 9, the timetable is clearly set out and if you look at the projections in Annex F the scenarios in which that might change are under already under consideration.

    A variable they will not have considered is the impact of pandemics such as the current one in shortening average life expectancy. That said any savings are likely to be consumed in combating the impact of pandemics, long before they can be used to adjust the retirement age projections.

    PS The actuaries report is absolutely explicit on the impact of both high and low net migration on the sustainability of the National Insurance Fund and its ability to support State Pension burdens.
    Last edited by raysablade; 14th May 2020 at 16:16.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by broxie View Post
    Try asking the 3.8 million women born in the 1950s who had their retirement age delayed by 8 years. At current rates, that's a loss of around £72,000 each.

    https://www.waspi.co.uk/

    I'm in my early 60s and worry it might not be there when I'm due to collect in under 4 years time!
    Sire, it's a nearly 100 page document and I is not clever. Can you dumb it down pretty please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 72bpm View Post
    Sire, it's a nearly 100 page document and I is not clever. Can you dumb it down pretty please?

    3.8 million women born in the 1950s had their retirement age delayed by 8 years. At current rates, that's a loss of around £72,000 each.

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    But that isn't what you said, you said
    "Going by past and present statistics that wouldn't work as the majority of immigrant workers over the last 20 years or so have been low paid and therefore received benefits like Housing Benefit, Tax Credits etc so took/taking instead of contributing."

    So what is it then?
    If it is it just your opinion backed up by nothing then fair enough, you can believe what you want to believe, just don't pretend your opinion is fact.
    Quite right, no idea where "past and present statistics" came from!!!

  49. #99
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    Which think the triple lock will end

    https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/05...210520_members

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    I sort of aggree with teh doom and gloom merchants that say that by the time retire I'm not expecting any pension.

    BUT the reverse side of that is it will take a brave politician to remove it from people, they only get 4/5 years so long term thinking is a waste of time just borrow money and it's the next guys problem.

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