Advice and opinions on a Tudor Sub mariner MN Marine Nationale

[milwatch]

Hi all, I'm thinking about getting a blue Tudor Submariner 94010 MN Marine Nationale. They are proving elusive as I can't even find one for sale (apart from on C24). So, whats peoples advice on getting one? Whats peoples experience with certain dealers and where could I get one? Any tips with them. Ive looked into the decom papers and ledger entry which again seems a mission in itself. Cheers Mark.

[Sinnlover]

I see you have asked over at MWR which is probably the best place
Failing that Ross Povey is the fountain of all Tudor Knowledge he runs Tudor Collector . Com (he pops up from time to time here as well)
You could ask him I guess he is also on Instagram
As you know you need to do your home work before you buy, there are lots of fakes / Frankens about. It’s a lot of money to loose on a bad one if you don’t.
As mentioned on MWR, the ledgers are not complete and decom papers have been forged so I would look at it as a nice to have but not the conclusive proof that the watch was once in MN service.
It’s the range of serial numbers that proves if a watch is legit.
Best of luck

[milwatch]

I see you have asked over at MWR which is probably the best place
Failing that Ross Povey is the fountain of all Tudor Knowledge he runs Tudor Collector . Com (he pops up from time to time here as well)
You could ask him I guess he is also on Instagram
As you know you need to do your home work before you buy, there are lots of fakes / Frankens about. It’s a lot of money to loose on a bad one if you don’t.
As mentioned on MWR, the ledgers are not complete and decom papers have been forged so I would look at it as a nice to have but not the conclusive proof that the watch was once in MN service.
It’s the range of serial numbers that proves if a watch is legit.
Best of luck

Thanks Sinnlover, yes I've asked on MWR. I like peoples advice and this is a different forum. I've contacted Ross but he is very busy and I dont want to hassle him. Some dealers/experts give three word answers and miss 50% of what I asked so learning is slow progress. Anyway thanks.

I was wondering if people had personal experience of buying. The fact I can't find one for sale doesnt help

[Sinnlover]

Thanks Sinnlover, yes I've asked on MWR. I like peoples advice and this is a different forum. I've contacted Ross but he is very busy and I dont want to hassle him. Some dealers/experts give three word answers and miss 50% of what I asked so learning is slow progress. Anyway thanks.

I was wondering if people had personal experience of buying. The fact I can't find one for sale doesnt help

If based in the UK there is a dealer called The Watch Guys he frequents Portobello and they have an office at 32 Hatton Garden
Email is info @ thewatchguys .com
I have never done business with him but have had a few chats when our paths have crossed
He is a Snowflake nut - he sometimes wears one on each wrist. (He wanted to buy mine) I am not saying he has one for sale, not saying he is good to deal with but it might be an avenue you can look at. He might know someone with one for sale? I am guessing you will have to do a deal with a collector to get one, they don’t tend to pop up in retailers.

[Wallasey Runner]

I assume this is the one you found on C24

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/tudor/sub...id13602299.htm

Can't say I've ever seen one on here. I know Mike Wood has previously listed service issued Tudors so might be worth contacting him at some point to see if he has come across this particular watch.

[Wallasey Runner]

Stranger and stranger,

Just checked on Mike's index of sold watches and he did sell one if you scroll down the list - the watch is number 79

http://www.theoldwatchshop.com/rolarc10.html

The one on C24 is also number 79.

Is it the same watch, or are they all numbered 79 as a sort of issuing code?

[junglebert]

Stranger and stranger,

Just checked on Mike's index of sold watches and he did sell one if you scroll down the list - the watch is number 79

http://www.theoldwatchshop.com/rolarc10.html

The one on C24 is also number 79.

Is it the same watch, or are they all numbered 79 as a sort of issuing code?

It’s the year of issue isn’t it?

[Wallasey Runner]

It’s the year of issue isn’t it?

Could be, but don't most issued watches have an individual number?

[Sinnlover]

79 is the issue year, they used the serial number for the actual watch number. They were supplied without bracelets so the serial was always easy to read. It’s also one of the give aways of a watch that might not be all it seems.
If there is evidence of bracelet wear in the lugs, it could mean it was a sock civilian watch that has had numbers added to the case back.
I have to say I don’t like the look of the one on C24
The bezel does not look right might be a replacement? It’s also a bit on the low side price wise. I thought the going rate was about £25k - I could be wrong I often am.

[Wallasey Runner]

That must call into question any register or list of these watches unless they were recorded by the Watch serial number. There certainly doesn't seem to be an individual number on the case back.

I notice Mike has also previously sold issued Tudors to Argentina and another to South Africa. A slippery slope for collectors wanting one of each.

[sweets]

There are very specifically known watch serial number ranges for the batches bought for the MN in the different years - the secret is to be able to check against those numbers.
I do not really like the Chrono24 one, regardless of the number.
The bezel insert has not aged in a way that I have seen any other 1970s genuine insert age. My (non MN) 1976 snowflake has certainly not aged that way.
I am also a little curious about the H and M hands, which have no corrosion of texture whatsoever (possible but unlikely) and again, are slightly round shouldered on the snowflake of the H hand.
If I was spending all that, I would want a better one.
But I have to say, it s a huge premium to pay for some caseback engraving. It is not as if it is an individual watch like a Milsub, the Tudor MNs are simple dateless Subs.

D

[Sinnlover]

It is a risky one, you need to do your home work and find someone who is willing to share their knowledge
The militaries bought all of the watches in batches so if a watch falls in to a known range of serial numbers there is a good chance that it will have been used by that service, that’s the only real way to tell on some of the US, SA and Canadian issued watches as they are unmarked.
Some US watches are marked as are some MN but there are more unmarked watches than marked I would say. (Not including NAAFI / PX bought examples).
To complicate things even more Tudor still produced a limited number of 7016 watches after the introduction of its successor the 9401 (Mine is an example) the reason for this is a mystery but it could likely be a specific order from a military or a dive company who knows? So you have a watch made prior to the marking of the serial number which falls in to the range of the first 9401s

[seabiscuit]

How about this as an example, albeit a sold one?

https://www.benwrightvintagewatches.....php?watch=107

[Sinnlover]

How about this as an example p, albeit a sold one?

https://www.benwrightvintagewatches.....php?watch=107

It’s a very nice 9401 but again unless you know the serial numbers and the range in which it should fall it’s still a risky buy.
That said any seller should be happy to share the serial number before you buy. That way you can do your home work.

[Dynam0humm]

There's one in the Antiquorum HK auction this Sunday.

https://catalog.antiquorum.swiss/en/...page=1&q=tudor

[mk1974]

There’s something like this on vrf,seems cheap though


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[Wallasey Runner]

Don't you love it when the OP gets actively involved in their own thread

[milwatch126]

All fakes except the HK one, they have a common engraving error (a full stop after the number). Stick to watches with decommission papers from the French military and from a good source. They came with two dial types snow flake and lolly-pop, blue and black with no fixed bars.
These watches are highly faked!


M

[Sinnlover]

All fakes they all have a common engraving error. Stick to watches with decommission papers from the French military and from a good source.

I don’t think it’s as simple as that.
Yes buy from know sources but more than one dodgy watch has popped up at a well known auction houses
Yes there are examples with mistakes in the engraving but some are better attempts than others
The only way you will know for sure is by cross referencing the serial number with the known batch serial numbers.

[jedly1]

Serial number is all important here .... forget decomm papers they have Been faked to high heaven , and even original blank ones have been previously available , the service lists are nice but not the be all an end ... they are exactly that a journal from watchmakers that serviced SOME of the watches ... by no means are all on there , and it’s been Alleged in the past that before they got circulated a bit more when you could pay a dealer $200 to verify your watch Some oddball outliers were ‘added’ .... so don’t take them as the wholly grail.... what they do give is the batches of serials you can pick out ...

Like a few of us do for Rolex Milsub’s , there are people like Ross who keep details of these and the most important thing is to check a watch falls in an accepted serial batch .

[milwatch]

All fakes except the HK one, they have a common engraving error (a full stop after the number). Stick to watches with decommission papers from the French military and from a good source. They came with two dial types snow flake and lolly-pop, blue and black with no fixed bars.
These watches are highly faked!


M

interesting observation regarding the full stop. I have seen another that has ledger confirmation via serial number that also has the full stop. Most seem NOT to have the full stop though. Thank you

[milwatch]

I assume this is the one you found on C24

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/tudor/sub...id13602299.htm

Can't say I've ever seen one on here. I know Mike Wood has previously listed service issued Tudors so might be worth contacting him at some point to see if he has come across this particular watch.

Hi Wallesy runner. Thanks for your thoughts. Some interesting ones. The serial should appear in the service ledger, if it ever went into the register. Only some Toulon watches seem to be available. Other naval bases weren't recorded.

[milwatch]

If based in the UK there is a dealer called The Watch Guys he frequents Portobello and they have an office at 32 Hatton Garden
Email is info @ thewatchguys .com
I have never done business with him but have had a few chats when our paths have crossed
He is a Snowflake nut - he sometimes wears one on each wrist. (He wanted to buy mine) I am not saying he has one for sale, not saying he is good to deal with but it might be an avenue you can look at. He might know someone with one for sale? I am guessing you will have to do a deal with a collector to get one, they don’t tend to pop up in retailers.

Thanks sinnlover, will look him up.