Our new house has a slightly odd shaped garden that backs directly onto a field. The landowner has agreed to sell us about 90 square meters that rationalises our garden and their field giving them a more regular field and us a garden that finally makes sense and allows the kids to run amok more effectively.
We've agreed it will cost nine grand. I have no idea whether this is a bargain or a complete rip off and just for once, the internet really isn't remotely helpful. Either way, I don't much care, I'm just delighted that after pondering on it for ages they agreed to sell it.
The landowners are being very decent, are in no hurry for much to happen and are happy for me to do the conveyancing myself. I've never done it and I like learning new things. I spoke to my solicitor and even he said it wasn't a bad idea as he wouldn't be terribly cheap. His advice was to speak directly to the land registry as they are extremely helpful. However, I thought I'd give you lot a go too as every time I've asked before I've ended up far better informed than I expected.
So it's a 90 square meter plot that can be delineated by a single 20m or so straight line connecting two clear angles. There is a deep foul drain that runs partially through my current garden and partially through the new plot with a manhole in the new plot. The landowners want to keep a right of access to this drain as they are intending, at some time, to build a new house for themselves further up the hill. That's absolutely fair enough. They would like a restrictive covenant stopping any further building in the new plot, which again is fair enough and they want it clear that the boundary is my responsibility and must be suitable to keep out sheep and poultry on their side and overactive kids on mine. I'm content with all of this as they didn't need to sell us the land and are just doing us a favour.
So presumably I need to sort out a plan and a set of appropriately worded covenants and fill in a bunch of forms. Does anyone know how to go about it properly? My solicitor has made it clear he'll take the mess off my hands at any point I wish but he'll probably charge me the same fee and start from scratch. Which again, is fair enough.
The legalities of conveyancing are not straight forward and given the added complexity of the covenants, easements etc, I’m afraid it’s one for a solicitor.
The risk of something coming back to bite you further down the road would make it a job I’d not undertake myself. For your own peace of mind if nothing else.
If your regular solicitor is expensive, check the local area for a conveyancing specialist who would perhaps be cheaper?
The costs would surely be no more than £5-600?
Last edited by demonloop; 4th May 2020 at 09:33.
As above, with the covenants its not quite as straight forward as it might be, online is the cheapest option. If you have a relationship with a solicitor i would always suggest this route, the figures you quote for the legal work are a fraction of the deal.
You need to:-
1. Investigate the landowners title. Hopefully it is registered
2. Decide if you want searches. Probably not required as you know the area and presumably any service media under the land will just stay in situ
3. You need a Land Registry compliant plan professionally drawn up and ensure that it perfectly dovetails with your land
4. You will need to use a Land Registry transfer of part form TP1 available in Word in the LR website
5. If the landowners land is mortgaged you will need them to get a form DS3 release from their lender
6. You will need an OS2 priority search of part at the Land Registry
7. Application to the Land Registry to register the TP1 is on an AP1
I admire your effort at having a go at this. Personally I would class it like having a go at doing your own dentistry. If your solicitor is willing to do it for anything less than £750 then I’d bite his hand off
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
I have done my own conveyancing in the past on relatively simple purchases. (Lock
up garages).
From memory there are a couple of forms including a TR1 and a visit to your local land registry office. I’m afraid with the added issues of covenants etc, I’d be paying a solicitor to do it. You will pay a maximum of £1k plus the £9k purchase price so it’s cheap at £10k for the benefit to your family. Save yourself the hassle mate and let your solicitor do it.
Matt....there is no such thing as a ‘favour’ from a farmer they ain’t wired that way 99.9% know how to look after No1.
They have already stacked it in their ‘favour’ ...waste / soil .(access and responsibility)....boundary ...(maintenance and erection)
And restrictive covenants....and trust me if theres an issue further down the road the farmer will ensure he is bullet proof.
Defo solicitor job if your 100% committed to doing it......imagine when you decide to sell and the other side asks for the file on the land parcel and starts digging into it (no pun) ...needs to be 100%....
Is farmer getting a solicitor ?....or have they asked you to ‘sort it’
Apologies if you think I am being a killjoy but I nearly got bitten on a purchase with access issue.. ‘act in haste - repent at your leisure’ and all that...
Last edited by TKH; 4th May 2020 at 08:13.
Before proceeding too far, have you checked whether you are likely to receive planning approval for the change of use ?
Having seen the questions and delays to a recent house purchase, with restrictive covenants, or access rights etc. I would highly recommend using a solicitor.
It's just a matter of time...
Very important issue as you can't just incorporate farmland into a residential garden and start cultivating it as such.Originally Posted by SlipperySam
In my time I viewed plenty of houses that had bought an attached bit of field but still had it separated with a gated stock fence and referred to it as a paddock in the sales blurb even though it was too small to use as such.
You can still walk and play in your new field though.
You'd be mad to do anything other than use a solicitor - & one who deals with land transactions.
At £409,000 per acre that's got to be some of the most expensive agricultural land in the country.
This (unless you get change of use)
Just pay a conveyancer experienced in this type of land transfer. Job done, no worries and move on.
Or spend weeks researching and reading differing advice from people who probably have no more idea than you do, only to probably miss doing something and come unstuck later.
Difficult choice.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I have a feeling that Matt would relish the challenge.
Cheers..
Jase
Regarding the sewer pipe, you could buy an indemnity insurance that would cover you in light something going wrong or a problem further down the line, I had to do this with a recent house sale as the main sewer was less than 3 meters from the main structure, it was a bit more detailed than that but that was the jist of it, think it cost me £152 but it progressed the house sale to go through.
You could of course ask to split the cost with the seller..
Thanks everyone, there’s two sorts of solid advice here, both are useful, depending on the direction I go.
As for the price, that’s half the price for building land round here! More to the point, the internet reckons that 10% of increased house value is a fair price. So I have 10% of who knows? Or how do you value a mini paddock with the possibility of being a garden? I reckon planning permission will be easy as it’s simply cutting off a salient poking into the garden. More to the point, having just spent almost a year working with local planning and building regs as we rebuilt and repurposed this house, we are on first name terms!
I’m chastened by so many of you feeling this is daft, and the idea of insuring the drain is a good one I hadn’t considered, but I think I’ll look at it a bit further to see how it goes.
The landowners are not farmers. They are a Dutch husband and wife who are GPs and own a local practice. They are impressively decent people who I know for a fact turned down a stupid amount of money from a developer who wanted to to throw up a small estate on the field. That they are bothering to even think about this at the moment is a testament to their character. Doubly so as they said no six months ago but changed their minds as they know we have two slightly autistic kids who make spaniels look sensible and can see the difference the land would make to us right now. They’ve given us access straight away on the understanding we will sort out the paperwork properly later.
Last edited by M4tt; 4th May 2020 at 15:06.
Would echo everything already said. However there is just a couple of extra things to consider.
When we purchased our house we did something similar and bought part of a field, however there were a few wrinkles to consider.
1) because the land was previously farming land (pasture) were were unable to turn it into a normal garden. We could plant trees, have a veggie plot, but could not dig borders, build a formal garden etc for 10 years.
2) Make sure you agree exactly who is responsible for the fences, especially if live stock is involved.
3) Makes sure the land is not classed as being within an area of outstanding beauty or historical importance, as this can limit what you can do with the land in future and might actually put prospective buyers off.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It's good that the sellers are such nice people but the point of having the covenants drawn up correctly is to protect you in the future. They may sell up & your new neighbours be difficult. You may sell up & any buyers will be very concerned about badly drawn up covenants which could derail the sale.
As someone pointed out yes it’s an expensive piece of land pro rata for what it is, however it is a small price to pay for the benefit that you will have from it. Plus the value it will add to your home will far outweigh it - a friend of mine is buying a strip of land in front of his house for around 30k. The land is probably worth 3k as part of a field. He’s been told it could add 100k to his house as it’s currently an eye sore due to the farmer leaving it unattended. I said to view it almost as a ‘random strip’ - it’s a means to an end as his views look out to the sea and are amazing.
He’s been told he can’t just add it into his garden and it may have to be a paddock, so worth you checking.
Also in the grand scheme of things paying for proper legal advice is important if you ask me. The current owners may well be lovely and genuine - who knows what any future owners could be like if circumstances change. Also if you decide to sell in the future, a conveyancer for your buyers may go to town if it’s not done accurately.
Given that the extra space will have a positive effect on your lives, I'd just get it done asap with the minimal fuss. Unless you actually want something to occupy yourself.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Right!
First thank you for all of the advice so far. I know most of it is that I'd be insane, but I've spent the last few hours measuring, looking at the other two plots of land (don't ask - It's a single sprawling sort of bungalow over two discrete plots of land, hence some of the problems)
So I've pulled out the deeds and land registry stuff from the safe. Now I know that the map and the territory kind of match up here, because I checked myself when I bought it. However, as soon as I started looking and measuring I discovered that the moment I move beyond my border it all gets a bit complicated. When I say a bit...
So, the whole plan revolved around moving the fence forward about four meters or so, level with an equivalent garden belonging to next door. One of the two plots of land I own, was bought from one of the previous owners of next door. So the border runs quite neatly from the road to the field boundary in a lovely straight line for about 25 meters. It then hits the fence at an angle of about eighty degrees. From there, the neighbours garden extends at ninety degrees from the line of the fence for a further four meters, thus bending by ten degrees into what would be the new garden. That's in reality.
On the current plan from the land registry, that extra 4m of garden belonging to the neighbours simply doesn't exist. Now I have no idea how that has occurred, but there's an old chap a few doors down who will know and I'll be dropping round for a cuppa soon...
However, the bottom line is that prior to even noticing that little ten degree swerve I was working on this verbal description to accompany a drawn one:
The area drawn on the map is a fragment of the larger field to the South of the outlined plot. This new plot abuts to the SSW border of title R3xxxx2 and part of R2xxx3. It takes its WNW border from a continuation of the WNW border of R3xxxx2 for 4.2 meters past the line of the SSW border...
However, that would impinge on the all too real garden that doesn't feature on the land registry plans. So what takes precedent? Reality or plans? Who said it was like dentistry? Dentistry with crooked teeth?
On the more positive side, one of the deeds has a lovely legalese covenant for the same drain where it impinges on the land bought in '65 and the fencing. That can be lifted directly into the new covenant.
I'm still not sure if I'm going to do it, but it's fascinating discovering how damned hard simply surveying it is.
This thread is useless without a diagram!!
Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
I was waiting for one too!
Cheers..
Jase
I'm definitely working on it, but the words easier said than done spring to mind...
Oh come on, check your certificates, you must have a forgotten degree in cartography tucked away somewhere. Go old style, tracing paper, ink Rotrings and stencils or Letraset.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The closest thing I have that is remotely relevant is a GCE in Air Navigation courtesy of the ATC. It's been useful to me precisely once. I'm sure I've got the text book somewhere, but all I can remember of it is that it was by a chap called Canning.
But for some reason I think I'll just let this go. Thanks for the help those who wanted to.
Last edited by M4tt; 7th May 2020 at 22:28.
My wife was a proper lawyer ... change of job since the move to Canada. I seen and heard how silly things are and yes often times people do things and move things then when it comes time to legally do things... it’s rarely straight forward. What your paying for in a lawyer is to make sure what you think you’re buying is actually theirs to sell... and that should something go wrong the indemnity insurance will cover costs. I heard horror stories of things going wrong and the costs can be significant.
Good luck with the purchase and I hope you get much enjoyment out of the parcel of land you hope to acquire.
I’d be interested in seeing some plans and happy to try and assist. I’m a surveyor who has been acquiring land for commercial development for almost 20 years and my other half is a property litigator. I wouldn’t do my own conveyancing, it’s not worth it for the nominal cost.
One thing that has become apparant from a recent discussion over on Pistonheads is that the LR system gives quite different results depending on if it's performed by & private individual or someone signed up to the commercial portal. If you want further help (there are two posters in particular who are very experienced in such matters) you cold try posting over there but you'll need to post the actual location.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=207
You should also expect an extremly robust response to your suggestion of doing the conveyencing yourself.
Which thread are you referring to on PH as it seems very unlikely that LR gives different information to different people?
At this point, I'm increasingly convinced that doing it myself looks unwise, but I'm more interested in getting a sense of how to do it. Certainly surveying the plot has turned into a slightly perverse exercise as I had a brainwave in the middle of the night and I'm now surveying it with a 1915 Verner prismatic compass that is identical to the compass that George Mallory didn't take with him on his successful assault of Everest in 1924. Used in anger, it turns out to be an immensely practical tool for the job. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself...
Getting it all in focus is much harder than getting an accurate bearing... If only Mallory had had this on him when the weather closed in on the top of Everest, forcing him to wait for several hours before descending, he'd almost certainly have survived and returned in triumph.
I've spoken to my neighbour while he was doing his bees (don't ask) and he was fully aware that the property next door had whipped an extra four yards or so after the previous owner of the field but one died.
Apparently both next door and the vendors are aware of this irregularity but the vendors don't want to be bad neighbours about something that happened decades ago. Quite where that leaves the line of this plot is unclear to me...
Last edited by M4tt; 8th May 2020 at 15:35.
Have to say I'm impressed.
I've done some surveying in the past (using up-to-date equipment in the early 90s) and it wasn't easy. I can't remember much about it now.
My one recommendation is to spend a little more now rather than have it put off a potential buyer when they undertake searches later in life if you / your children ever come to sell the property.
Bear in mind you may need planning permission to change the land designation from agricultural to residential
Sent from my moto g(8) plus using TZ-UK mobile app
Wow, now that's proper surveying - something which I've not done since University back in 2002 and even then we used somewhat more modern tech. It sounds like it doesn't really matter what your neighbour has pinched as it doesn't encroach on what you're buying. They won't have possessory title unless they've applied to the LR and notice served on the freeholder who hasn't challenged it, that's assuming it's a registered title.At this point, I'm increasingly convinced that doing it myself looks unwise, but I'm more interested in getting a sense of how to do it. Certainly surveying the plot has turned into a slightly perverse exercise as I had a brainwave in the middle of the night and I'm now surveying it with a 1915 Verner prismatic compass that is identical to the compass that George Mallory didn't take with him on his successful assault of Everest in 1924. Used in anger, it turns out to be an immensely practical tool for the job. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself...
Getting it all in focus is much harder than getting an accurate bearing... If only Mallory had had this on him when the weather closed in on the top of Everest, forcing him to wait for several hours before descending, he'd almost certainly have survived and returned in triumph.
I've spoken to my neighbour while he was doing his bees (don't ask) and he was fully aware that the property next door had whipped an extra four yards or so after the previous owner of the field but one died.
Apparently both next door and the vendors are aware of this irregularity but the vendors don't want to be bad neighbours about something that happened decades ago. Quite where that leaves the line of this plot is unclear to me...
I wouldn't worry too much about getting planning consent for COU, as it's highly unlikely the LPA would ever find out.
Good luck
Well, it felt like proper surveying and, aided by a VE day scone lunch, The kids and I crawled over everything measuring, randomly sticking poles in, taking bearings and angles and so on.
So I have a (very) rough pencil drawing of what the kids remind me is an irregular quadrilateral. It's covered in measurements, remeasurements bearings and angles.
Which sounds cool. However, I'm a great believer in some sort of checksum. And this is the point that I discover that 1) it's easy to end up on the reciprocal heading by accident 2) I'm a better mathematician in theory than practice 3) My numbers, angles and everything else don't quite add up.
Yet. (I hope)
I think I'll try again without Santa's little helpers. Although a nine year old girl confidently reading bearings off a 105 year old prismatic compass while both wearing 104 year old watches in a field full of buttercups has a certain appeal.
Back in the practicalities, it does theoretically encroach on the line of the WNW boundary if it carried on in a straight line from front to back. Thus, from that line, it deviates by precisely(ish?) 18 degrees inwards for the four meters beyond my current border. It's irritating that I can't just use the straight line, but it's probably worth accepting that 18 degree deviation for it not to be my problem...
By coincidence, this is handy as it makes the long side of the plot exactly 20M (well, given that the sellers are happy for me to overshoot by 56cm it does. Here's a photo of the Google Earth shot of the problem.
The line needs to go from the edge of the bushes in the bottom left corner to the nearest corner of what is a very odd shaped garage (the black splodge bottom left).
Last edited by M4tt; 8th May 2020 at 20:46.
Wouldn't it be embarrassing if one spent half a day taking measurements that, while reasonably consistent, made no sense at all and then realised that the iphone in your pocket is loaded with magnets and just might have not been helping. There's more to this surveying lark than meets the eye. Now, do they all add up?
Last edited by M4tt; 8th May 2020 at 23:27.
Wouldn't it be still more embarrassing, if, having redone all the measurements and got what looked like good numbers you spent half the evening trying to reconcile them all only to realise at the end that one bearing you had taken was taken from the very end of my entire plot rather than from the point where the new plot joins the old one. So IF, when I take the new bearing in the morning, It happens to allow one angle to be 30 degrees and another to be 140 degrees rather than 22 degrees and what the hell? then I've nailed it. Frankly, a couple of degrees either side will do, because all the measurements work and I now have a suspicion that the reason so many land plans seem to have thicker than expected lines is something like a confidence interval in science...
However, after a bit of fiddling I got a better shot through the Verner that gives an idea of what a clear instrument it is, but it's designed beautifully for the human eye, not so much for the iphone and so it doesn't really do it credit
Sheep bearing 194 degrees... Fire!
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...=207&t=1867135
I’m impressed and initially thought from your original photo you were peering down the scope of a .22 Rimfire. As you say you’re way more accurate than the felt tip pen line that’ll be transposed onto your LR compliant plan. If you get stuck with anything feel free to drop me a line and I’ll try and assist but based on your perseverance so far I reckon you’ve got it in the bag.Wouldn't it be still more embarrassing, if, having redone all the measurements and got what looked like good numbers you spent half the evening trying to reconcile them all only to realise at the end that one bearing you had taken was taken from the very end of my entire plot rather than from the point where the new plot joins the old one. So IF, when I take the new bearing in the morning, It happens to allow one angle to be 30 degrees and another to be 140 degrees rather than 22 degrees and what the hell? then I've nailed it. Frankly, a couple of degrees either side will do, because all the measurements work and I now have a suspicion that the reason so many land plans seem to have thicker than expected lines is something like a confidence interval in science...
However, after a bit of fiddling I got a better shot through the Verner that gives an idea of what a clear instrument it is, but it's designed beautifully for the human eye, not so much for the iphone and so it doesn't really do it credit
Sheep bearing 194 degrees... Fire!
Thanks, I’ve never compared the public access with what I can view on my corporate LR account but I see that the public can’t view the “map search” page which shows all titles as a mosaic. Appears individuals can only review one title at a time.
That is definitely my experience. It’s really unhelpful as my house is built on two contiguous plots. Mind you, having realised my mistake, I’m going to take a couple of fresh bearings this morning and see if it all adds up... I may have a consistent and coherent set of bearings, lengths and angles.
Mind you, it’s sobering that I’ve gone from assuming that to hoping that...
Last edited by M4tt; 9th May 2020 at 10:17.
More than happy to PM you a screen shot of all the titles on the map
Have you thought about using a drone to do the survey; I was given a really cool presentation at the end of last year and it sounds like the perfect tool for the job?
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
I certainly considered it, but the idea of using the vintage tools I had to hand was simply too tempting. I’ve spent a day and a half on it and have ended up with posts stuck all over the place, four pages of notes and a small quadrilateral with lengths and angles that worked perfectly this morning before my father magically produced a 30m tape measure from one of his many boxes...
My wife also had to explain to the children exactly why I had a briar pipe clenched in my teeth and was swinging a wooden ice axe around. She very calmly explained that daddy was doing grown up dressing up. This was a whole new concept for them and they spent the rest of day as pirates in solidarity.
Last edited by M4tt; 9th May 2020 at 21:20.
And 0 deg or close to 0 magnetic declination for the first time since the 1600s.
!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
