Reply With Quotebugger 😀, but now corrected.Originally Posted by Onelasttime
Yeah R, keep it irrelevant FFS
I had an interest chat today with a guy whose wife was in a care home and he said something rather profound.
He was paying £75000 a year for care of his wife. Which he assumed included all the tools/equipments necessary in order to protect the staff and patients.
Hence why didn’t the care homes already have sufficient stock of PPE, given its their responsibility, especially when 80% of care homes are privately operated for profit!
It’s easy to blame the government and NHS, but why are we not taking a long hard look at the care home providers. It’s a bit like taking your car to get it serviced and then being asked to provide your own tools, oils, rubber gloves, etc.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
bugger 😀, but now corrected.Yeah R, keep it irrelevant FFS
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Could say the same about the NHS, they have their budgets. Didn’t hear them complaining about lack of PPE before this blew up.
I suspect that neither NHS nor Care Home boards expected the pandemic and thought that low stocks meant a more efficient use of funds. By the time they pulled their finger out availability was the issue.
Things might have been different if they had known about Cygnus. They would almost certainly have reacted quicker, at least.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Care Homes perhaps but the NHS certainly knew about it. Exercise Cygnus was a simulation exercise carried out by NHS England and the results reported to the NHS England Board (and PHE etc.).
Sir Liam Donaldson, former CMO, lost a lot of credibility after his warnings about swine flu in 2009 did not materialise. Human nature being what it is, when you cry wolf....
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rning-helpline
This is a good point.
The other thing is, we always refer to NHS and PHE etc, Governments as well if you like, but that covers up for individuals and groups making decisions that ultimately lead to negative impacts, albeit maybe in hindsight.
I can very well imagine how easy it is at any level to answer the question of ‘should we buy more PPE for stock to tackle a pandemic of the future or spend the money on treating more sick people now?’ with the latter. Especially if budgets are under pressure from lack of funding or increased demand or whatever.
I hope that any future investigation into our countries collective response to this crisis explores all of the policy, political, budgetary, ideological as well as organisational drivers behind our efforts.
I don’t think we should necessarily be looking for scapegoats, that would be too easy, but we should be identifying failures of organisations and not shying away from naming individuals if they’re culpable for the way their organisation behaved/responded.
Given 85% of Care Homes are privately owned and run - some by hedge funds, the main focus will always be the balance sheet.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Sometimes the balance sheet gets better if you spend some money. I am not sure that people will flock to fill all those beds left vacant, even when it is said that there is no such thing as bad publicity.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
My mate at works wife has worked at quite a few privately run care homes over the years sounds like a good business to be in
Perhaps - the issue for me is the role of the CQC in respect of care homes. Whilst they are inspected and audited, I am sure the current situation was off the scale for them.
The sad thing is, for some there is little or no alternative.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Agreed, sadly.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
How about today then?
The Royal College of Physicians (RCP) continues to survey its members during the coronavirus outbreak, it is successfully building up a more detailed picture of the workforce, the impacts on it and its continuing concerns around Covid-19.
And whilst we are requesting answers to other's posts, how about you doing so?Having surveyed the audience three times already since the outbreak of Covid-19, twice in April and most recently in the middle of May, the RCP found clinicians still had some concerns over health risks to themselves and their households and access to personal protective equipment (PPE) and fit testing to ensure its effectiveness.
The data gathered showed to date, 37% of people having reported taking time off work during the Covid-19 outbreak, with 20% of those absent having confirmed Covid-19 infections, with a further 39% suspecting they had caught the virus.
Just under a fifth of respondents also expressed some degree of concern over access to PPE while managing patients – an improvement on previous surveys earlier during the outbreak but still a noticeable figure. Fit testing, a key process where PPE is expertly measured and fitted to ensure it is airtight and effective, had only occurred for two thirds of respondents.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Madness. This is a result of confusing and poorly managed communications from Government. Potentially so much effort being undone before our very eyes. Second wave here we come:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-52742519
So clever my foot fell off.
Neighbours of ours returned from an aborted trip to our local beach today, citing the traffic jam that stretched back two miles from the beach car park.
Even an ambulance on blues lights was caught up in the gridlock.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Fraid so, once again the vague instructions of our government will cull some more of the herd.
Last edited by number2; 20th May 2020 at 22:27.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Not the result of idiots ignoring government advice then?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
This as well of course. But if you tell people they can go outside, they will. The smart ones will come back when they realise they cannot keep a safe distance. The idiots won't.
But it's one thing to accept the idiots are behaving like idiots, it's another to write them off, and the people they meet, because they are idiots. Sometimes, you must try to stop Darwin doing its work, albeit reluctantly.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The job of a responsible government perhaps.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
That's nonsense of course, but the government can't win. The simpler the message, the more people will complain that it's not nuanced or flexible enough. Make it flexible and sensible enough that people can safely have a bit more freedom safely if they follow the rules and people will complain that it's "muddled", or "vague". Often the same people.Fraid so, once again the vague instructions of our government will cull some more of the herd.
Not just beaches but parks too, we went out for a daily walk and the parks were packed with sunbathers (Also has something happened in this country where people seem to descend upon a park to smoke cannabis?) Have I missed something, was there something special about today that everyone decided to go out?
Perhaps they’ve forgotten the new slogan?
So clever my foot fell off.
Some people decided to ignore the government’s advice in 2016?
Anyhow were drifting in to politics so I'm out.
Last edited by number2; 21st May 2020 at 07:50.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Or make it gnomic, like 'stay alert'...for an 'invisible mugger' don't forget, how can anyone stay alert for it, oh hang on my Spidey sense is tingling, one of those pedestrians might have the lurgy.
That's nonsense of course.
So clever my foot fell off.
Of course it is, those countries with more rigorous lockdowns, (not merely suggesting how the population should behave) have without exception had lower death rates.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Nothing wrong with culling of the numpty herd. Unfortunately this virus is not that selective. Perhaps the Chinese scientists can be persuaded to slightly modify the viral genome to affect only those particular types of idiots.
And probably had leaders who could be bothered to show up for key meetings I reckon, do a bit of that responsible leadership, detail focused decision making malarky, mind you that can be hard work.
Never-mind at least Boris is 'jolly', and can cheer everyone up with his booster-ism and witticisms like 'Operation last gasp'.
Last edited by Passenger; 21st May 2020 at 08:18.
No need. There aren’t enough of them to do any real damage as democracy has proven.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Oh dear.
Now we see what the real problem people have with the government is. Just scrape the surface, and all the oh so sensible arguments fall away and the true reason is there.
And you keep saying that every time you post political swipes!! Do you cross your fingers behind your back as well 😂
Well, to be fair, I think that would depend on how you’re measuring it, and also how you’re counting?
I’d have preferred that our country be tackling this differently, but looking at the only comparable number of deaths per million of population, our figures are lower than some of those who had harder lockdowns.
Seems that whatever you do, or don’t, beyond a certain basic response, the figures aren’t wildly different.
People have tried having ''sensible arguments'' with you Ian, I'm sure you'll enjoy your day just as much stirring it with someone else.
So crack on lad.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Not really sure I follow you here...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Isn't the 'official' number, at what now, nearly 36k, clearly tragic enough, very likely to be truly around the 50's according to sources with less skin in the game than HMG...nonetheless sticking with the official numbers seems likely to be nudging 40k 'officially' by the time June 1st rolls around and we send the 'infantry' and teachers in.
Though having seen some of that footage of folk back on the beaches, doubtless alert but carrying on like normal, we could see the beginning of the 2nd wave by early June.
Last edited by Passenger; 21st May 2020 at 08:37.
Well, let’s take Spain.
How many comments have we had from our expat friends along the lines of how much better their adopted country has implemented lockdown than here in the UK, which might be true.
But, the ‘death rates’ don’t look that different?
Look at countries where no or hardly any lockdown or distancing has been put in place, and there is a difference.
Yes, we knew it was coming, should have done better etc, but the facts appear to contradict the statement that our ‘poor lockdown‘ has led to us having by far the highest death rate.
That’s before you look into how different countries are counting or how excess deaths are being explained.
It remains to be seen what happens next, but I’m getting pretty tired of the politics infecting every comment as people jostle to take up their entrenched positions, and switching to transmit rather than receive for another 24 hours of sparring.
Lad?
Simply pointing out how you keep bringing politics into the thread.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Sure, let's.
You are correct that comparing the total numbers is not reliable as I am not sure what is counted, and what isn't. But remember that even here care homes fatalities with Covid-19 were only counted from early April, and the UK death toll exceeded China's official death toll on April 3rd (so was already very significant).
Spain was hit really early, and enforced the lockdown roughly at the same time as the UK (from memory). There is enough evidence in this thread that shows how damaging this can be.
Yet current daily death counts is about 1/5th of the UK's...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Just curious are the B and Q's and garden centres open in GB, and has anyone been and can tell me what social distancing and other precautions are being taken, by way of comparison we popped to Leroy Merlin...Spanish B and Q/Homebase... on Monday, had lots of building work done the last month and there's bits and pieces I need to make right and finish off so although I didn't 'want' to go we are now allowed to, so we went...anywho it really wasn't busy, everyone was masked and very consciously doing the 2m dance step, we weren't allowed beyond the entrance of the store, taken one customer at a time to the checkouts, masked and gloved staff took the details of what we want, from behind plastic screens, and then sent other staff into the store to retrieve the items, you pay by card and then go to another entrance to collect your bagged items...
I'm not interested in scoring political points, am genuinely interested in how seriously, responsibly the situations being responded to, is the experience much the same in GB...
Another interesting thing, yesterday I saw my cranio facial surgeon in Cartagena, minor ongoing fashizzle with the fizzog, we got chatting about the situation and he mentioned he'd had an antibody test a couple of days ago which came up negative, he admitted to not knowing how he felt about that whether it was a good or bad thing...I told him how my son and I had , had something back in February which I suspect may've been the lurgy but I'll never know..he surprised me when he said I can go get an antibody test, he seemed to reckon I just had to ask for one...I've got to go in next week for my surgery, minor, but I'm going to ask whether it is indeed correct and possible that me and the nipper can get tested for antibodies....Can anyone ask and get antibody tests in GB...
Last edited by Passenger; 21st May 2020 at 09:08.
The point is, countries clearly aren’t measuring deaths in the same way as one another. We’re also not factoring in the overall size of the population, the urban density, ethnic mix and average age of populations that make comparisons difficult. Perhaps even meaningless for now.
Lockdown strength and when you implemented it is one factor, might be an important one, but still only one thing.
Should we really believe China’s numbers by the way?
I know there are a lot of people desperate to kick the government over this, and I’m in no way apologising for them, but it’s going to be months or years before we know each countries death toll properly.
Yes and yes.
I’ve seen a lot advertised by private healthcare sources in th the U.K.
Last edited by oldoakknives; 21st May 2020 at 09:19.
My wife has been to a garden centre twice in the last week, she reported it was well organised and setup, and appropriate measures in place.
I’ve purchased one item from a B&Q a couple of weeks ago, used their online ordering and car park collect service, worked well, no contact with anybody.
I don’t think I’m unusual, but if I see a situation I perceive to be unsafe, I stop and turn around, shopping included.
You can buy a £69 antibody test from Superdrug here, I expect most will wait for the government one, especially as there is still some uncertainty about how much the presence of antibodies protects from re-infection and how long it lasts.
I believe our local garden centre is open, but they also have a delivery service so we’ve been using that. With using supermarket deliveries also the only time we’ve actually gone anywhere to buy anything is two click and collect occasions.
I don’t think it’s worth the risk at the moment.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Thanks for the replies. I guess that's the key point re antibodies and the unknown quantity of how long immunity may or not be conferred.
I shall certainly enquire further about the test. I had expected them to be rationed for key workers, most vulnerable but if it's straightforward and I'm not taking up needed resources/capacity I'm curious to find out.
May I remind you that in this discussion you're the one who brought the comparison in? You even chose Spain.
I genuinely cannot understand how you can write "Lockdown strength and when you implemented it is one factor, might be an important one, but still only one thing".Kerala is a state in India with half of the UK's population in 1/6th of the area, or 3 times more densely populated, if you prefer. Yet by implementing an early lockdown they completely contained the virus.
No one is out of the woods yet, and we know there will be new spikes, almost certainly a second wave, and many mistakes can still be made that will make the death toll greater, in all countries. But as it stands your casually dismissing the essential role played by an early lockdown is risible. We didn't even control our borders FFS!
I believe you ARE apologising for the government. Which is your absolute privilege. But let's be serious: Every where the lockdown was implemented early and strongly, the results are considerably better than ours.
For the record, I used China not as a comparison (I don't believe their numbers for one second) but as a milestone. On April 3rd, the UK's death toll (EXCLUDING care homes) was greater. The point I was trying to make was that Covid-19 already had a stranglehold on the country, and thus the UK's official count was missing quite a few people that have died with Covid-19 prior to care homes being included.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 21st May 2020 at 09:54.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Are we 'thinking' Germany are hugely under reporting their deaths...I'm sure there's bound to be discrepancies probably across the board, but does rather beggar belief to imagine they've hidden 20 to 30 thousand deaths...looking across Europe aren't ze Germans the nearest, closest fit for comparison to GB, taking into account population, density, wealth, even culturally there's kinship.
How can our response be an 'apparent success' when we've had 4 or 5 times their death toll...How can such a comparison be 'meaningless', especially when at this point HMG's done an about turn and now seeks to ape the track/trace policy used so effectively by, you guessed it ze Germans.
How's your head feeling
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Yes, I had to bring Spain in because you weren’t following apparently.
No, I’m not apologising for the government, why does everybody have to be ‘on a side’ with you?
That’s the problem with the prevalent posters on this thread, every statement about the virus and our response to it is politically loaded.
Even before you decided to take issue with my post, I’d already said I’d prefer we were approaching things differently, and I also said it’s not over. No need to berate anybody for things they haven’t said.
But no, I don’t see much difference between the U.K., Spain and Italy with regard to deaths per million of the population, despite our apparent different approaches. Logic says there are other things at play here then, other than when and how you lockdown.
TBH, it should never have been posted in the G&D in the first place.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
As ever Chris, well said.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Agree with your final point, I reckon culturally and socially the Med's are going to be a 'hotter' ticket for the transmission of the lurgy than the UK should be.
But in the absence of a vaccine and/or other fancy tech a good old timely and robust lock down is the time honoured response. There's no other way to buy yourself the essential time and deny the virus a free hand.
Last edited by Passenger; 21st May 2020 at 10:12.
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