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Cant see the point in that really.Originally Posted by Captain Morgan
Im afraid OOK, that your reputation somewhat precedes you with a lot of people whove been around a while, which is unfortunate.
I was ok with it, for what its worth, but I think a lot of what you post comes with baggage, or at least thats the perception.
Cant see the point in that really.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Yes, a lot of axes to grind over the B word no doubt.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Probably! Keep smiling!
It's not just clarity of messaging that is inadequate but actually having the coordinated measures such as specific guidance for employers and necessary kit available to make work places safe, as well as sufficient numbers of trained teams in place to test, track and trace in order to isolate and tamp down the small outbreaks as they occur when lock-down eases to stop them turning into a large outbreak and thus another spike. A major part of lock-down, in addition to hopefully preventing your hospital/care systems being overwhelmed and saving lives, is to buy time in order to get your metaphorical planning ducks in a row, take the steps necessary to move with least risk towards the new normal.
Not a political comment tbh. Just that I can’t see the easing going well without a bit more clarity
That's a funny but also disconcerting image btw.
Last edited by Passenger; 12th May 2020 at 09:13.
Do you actually believe that exact guidance could be offered by the government to cover every industry and every employer? And issuing kit for all employees to keep them safe? Really?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I think in the absence of a vaccine/cure then yes the whole world is having to come to terms with finding a way to live with or preferably safely 'alongside' Covid without triggering another spike or major outbreak. The lock down hasn't made 'it' go away, following the PM's advice as given pretty much guarantees a 2nd wave.
Would you go to work, if your workplace was unsafe...and just for illustration, I used to work in an open plan office environment, pretty much every flu season that little sucker would spread without fail, if preventative measures aren't taken, how will Covid be any different.
Last edited by Passenger; 12th May 2020 at 09:36.
No I wouldnt. But employers and employees will have to put measures into place to ensure their safety. Its no good the government producing guidelines for industries only for people to say their particular business model isnt completely spelled out for them.
I think there is a lot of deliberate confusion going on by people with other agendas.
And Im not saying that the governments response has been perfect. I havent seen any government response that is.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-...virus-covid-19
Its down to the employer to provide any additional kit
Track and trace is as we all know is being trialled on the Isle of Wight, I believe target date for having people required
for the wider introduction is 18th May.
The only additional businesses that will be allowed to open are Garden centres the others havent had to close, many
decided to for commercial and safety reasons and have been working to get things in place so they can reopen, both big and small. I have since the end of last week had a number of messages from companies I have dealt with before saying they are now able to reopen and this was all prior to any supposed change.
You should perhaps do a bit of reading on Germany's, NZ or South Koreans response and handling, if you're interested in in seeing what a 'good' response might look like.
Hasn't Govt for years now Elf and Safety/ied every aspect of the workplace, why be remiss/absent during the so called 'unprecedented' health crisis.
I think if your agenda is public health and saving lives then the 'confusion' is entirely understandable and warranted, the fact of the deviation from Johnson's almost homeopathic advice/timetable, by other parts of the kingdom is a red flag.
Ah yes the App. Today is the 12th, can you really see how the results will be in, collated, analysed, a determination made of 'success', then inevitably the necessary tweaks or possibly major overhauls made in time for wider introduction in just 6 days time, taking into account the success rate of every other self set Govt target date...well you never know.
A cynic might say the leaders of the other parts of the U.K. have nothing to lose and everything to gain by delaying any change.
If its a success in England they can follow and say they were simply being cautious.
If its not a success then they can say how they knew all along.
Win win.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I know what the date is today and did I say the app would be deployed in 8 days? No. There isnt a fixed date for that
for the very reason that you cant guarantee while its in trial but its ongoing.
If you tried to use the S.Korea tracing system in this country there would be total outcry from the data privacy
brigade and in fact I think it probably isnt legal in this country.
Yes, I suppose it's just possible to maintain such a view if you overlook our 'apparent success' thus far in practically every aspect and are prepared to ignore the better outcomes/lessons from other nations.
Hasn't there already been an outcry about the system HMG have gone for, I recall reading something to that effect...
On the contrary Im not ignoring other nations outcomes, but equally I dont think the comparisons are particularly valid.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Wouldn’t call it an outcry a few moans, seems take up on IOW has been pretty good.
You may not OOK but HMG manifestly did, up until a week or so back, they were showing charts tracking the virus in the UK against other nations in Europe, then it all went a bit quiet when we took the lead.
I posted this a few days ago but it seems relevant in this discussion. What is invalid in this comparison such that the UK should be easing off?
39-C4-F499-8-D29-4114-A697-B17779-E2-C585 by Simon Gee, on Flickr
Fingers crossed then.
Be interesting to hear what OOK has to say as regards Mondies post below.
IF we're guided by the science then I can't really see how the science isn't telling us to chill out, stay home, consider maybe even going stricter on the lock-down until those numbers come down and the PM's plan has time to grow up and put a bit more meat on the bone.
Otherwise follow the not very good/precise advice, leads to a second spike , HMG will pass the buck and blame everyone but themselves and it's back to square one.
Last edited by Passenger; 12th May 2020 at 11:03.
I certainly wouldnt trust the safety of my data being uploaded into the app
It comes to something when, if i was offered the choice between two apps, the one I would trust is the one jointly developed by Apple and Google.
Last edited by MakeColdplayHistory; 12th May 2020 at 11:09.
chuckle.
I posted this a few days ago but it seems relevant in this discussion. What is invalid in this comparison such that the UK should be easing off?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-inhabitants/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/115103...pulation-size/
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
For those thinking of coming to Spain for a holiday
Forget it, in a few days time, all tourists must self isolate in a specified address for 14 days. Of course, you will then have to self isolate when you return to the UK.
Self isolating in a villa with a pool doesn't sound too bad to be honest.
From what I've heard there is no way personal info can be shared, although any of these type of things are open to abuse/misuse. I've been told by quite a few people they wouldn't use the app for fear of their personal information being harvested, many of whom are happy to use Facebook, Twitter etc etc.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Those who refuse to use the app should self isolate indefinitely whilst the rest of us go about our lives again.
Presumably they would use whichever they used before, if they used either, providing it could be managed safely. But surely it would be the parents responsibility to ensure they were travelling safely if on public transport, and responsibility of the school on school transport.
Surely again it would be the parents responsibility to ensure they were social distancing on the way to school, and not congregating on the way, not the schools.
Why would they need to form a line at the entrance? Do they line up at the entrance now?
Surely they can simply walk in, as they arrive, maintaining social distancing from each other under the guidance of a couple of teachers?
Many schools have traffic issues already, who controls the traffic now? Surely if pupils travel to school by car already as many do, the traffic issues must already exist. If staggered times were introduced surely that would ease any traffic issues?
If schools do have staggered starts, surely those starting say 15 minutes later, would go 15 minutes earlier. Or whatever the staggered timings were. 'x' pupils start on time and go on time. 'y' pupils start 15 minutes later and leave 15 minutes later. 'z' pupils start 30 minutes later and leave 30 minutes later. Obviously the timings probably would be different to those but why would it be difficult, given they would obviously be divided by class, year etc?
No doubt it would cause more problems for the parents, who might need to re-arrange their arrangements for taking and fetching children.
Surely on the way home it's the parents responsibility to ensure their safety, unless they are on school transport. Again wouldn't it be parents responsibility to ensure they are observing social distancing when collecting their children and not sending them in with others? Wouldn't the children only be 'in your care' once they arrive on school property, not travelling to and from school, unless on school transport?
I appreciate that education is not an easy thing to be involved in these days, a number of my friends are teachers. But aren't you exaggerating some of these issues unnecessarily?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
The deaths per M of population as has been mentioned many times depends on how you report deaths.
Also only the UK, France, Belgium and Sweden are including care home deaths in their totals. Spain is estimated to have at least 17k care home deaths to add to the total, Italy has only been including hospital deaths and some estimates are that they are missing out on as much as 70% of actual deaths which aren't getting recorded.
That being said the overall Euromomo data on excess deaths isn't pretty for the UK so maybe we are undercounting ours. England seems to be the only country that was over 40% excess deaths.
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-m...res-by-country
One final thing that is interesting, and along some of the thoughts that COVID is sadly killing mostly people who were statistically likely to die in that year and that as a result subsequent mortality should be lower than normal. Well, look at that Euromomo data, some countries like France are seeing materially fewer deaths than normal, other countries like Spain and Italy have seen rapidly decreasing excess mortality since the COVID peaks and are now at normal levels but with that steep decline continuing so let's see ina week or 2 if that trajectory continues below the average norm. Countries with strict and early lockdowns have seen virtually no deviation from the norm but that continues now whereas the non-lockdown countries saw that huge deviation followed by what may well be a significant reduction in mortality vs the norm which might indicate that at the end of this all, over a longer period of a year the peaks and troughs negate each other and we have a normal mortality 12 month period.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-inhabitants/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/115103...pulation-size/
Thats always been the case though, for the majority of people?
Its kinda funny though to see the same people who just a few days ago were frothing at the mouth because they perceived others werent following lockdown guidance now saying Its cool, take some responsibility for yourselves.
Instead of addressing the masses he would have been better advised to address employers - something along the lines of we would encourage you to communicate with your employees to get them back to work if you are confident you can provide a safe working environment for them
As it stands its being left to the public to figure out if they go back and this is whats making it feel shambolic to me.
No I'm not, not in the slightest in my professional view.
I have a duty of care to students and all my staff. Thus the previous norms of getting to and from school are extremely relevant regardless of parental responsibility.
So clever my foot fell off.
They should be holidaying in the UK and supporting our economy which has been badly hit.😁
When students fail to self isolate on the way to or from school. It will be the school who is picking it up as people will phone to complain.
Take some responsibility to work out how you will operate within the lockdown guidance.
Just had a message from our dog groomers, was a new business just over 18 months ago and from just doing it herself
had expanded to having 2 additional staff but operating from a small unit. She decided that she had to close but has been
working on how to reopen which she is now doing.
Turn up stay in you car and call, they will then advise if ok to come in and you leave your dog in the holding pen and leave,
will call when they are finished and same procedure when you go to pick your dog up, no direct contact and no need to
have a collar or lead while the dog is on the premises. They will provide hand sanitizer. They will open longer hours and will do shifts so at least one of her employees can start work again as well.
You do realise that the data you posted do neither confirm nor infirm the data on the post you quoted, don't you?
One will show the number of Covid-19 deaths per millions, by country, until the 12 May (yours)
the other, the average number of deaths of Covid-19 per millions, by country, as a 7 days moving average (mondie's)
You are correct in your quote of course, in as much that the two graphs show we can highlight 2 sets of data, showing substantial differences while (possibly) both being accurate.
What needs to be considered for both sets is where each country is on the curve. Then comparison will be fairer.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Ill holiday where I choose, thanks.
Nah, shit weather
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The same thing applies though don't you think? Following lockdown guidance was mostly using common sense and not bending the reccomendations.
Don't remember frothing at the mouth since the B debate (according to some anyway!)
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
A good example of a business applying common sense to the guidelines, rather than crying out that there are no specific government guidelines for dog groomers.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
This isn't a comparison, just the 7-day moving average picture for reported deaths in all settings in the UK as of yesterday:
Given that deaths lag infections by more than 10 days on average it follows that the risk of transmission is even further down that slope, and that's why I feel that a cautious relaxation of the restrictions is appropriate at this time.
For anyone that's interested, here is the 5 step plan for easing restrictions here in N.I.
https://www.executiveoffice-ni.gov.u...ecision-making
Yes and that is precisely what will happen. Foreigners will stay put as will the Brits and for 2020 everyone will holiday in their own country. The biggest casualty will be the airlines.
Where? You're not evening using comparable data. TBF I dont even know what your point is.
Not really, just an example of a business that has methods of working that can adapt, that does not apply to every business. The advice says to stay 2m apart, unless you can't. That is a minefield for both employers and employees and is going to lead to a lot of conflict in the coming weeks sadly.
Nobody said it would be easy. Plenty of businesses can adapt their working practices. Some cant.
What do you suggest should be the approach?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Yep, and the holding pen is outside, unfortunately if you have a large dog that requires 2 people to groom
they cant do it. The dog will be sprayed with an antiviral spray on arrival and before you pick it up.
If your late dropping off or picking up you will be charged an additional fee which is fair enough as their
usual volume will be greatly reduced and and delays will cause them knock on timing issues.
Plus there is the usual no one with symptoms or in high risk groups to book their dogs in.
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