Lockdown easing?

[oldoakknives]

Yep I get what you're saying indeed that thought had crossed my mind, so are you saying that everyone claiming that PPE is/has been in short supply has an ulterior motive, or that the people reporting these issues have an ulterior motive?
Because that would mean that an awful lot of people have an axe to grind, which then begs the question - why?

FWIW, You and I may not agree on many things but were you to ask advice via the forum regarding property lettings or landlord tenant issues, I'd give it honestly with no agenda.
Stay safe.

No I'm not claiming that everyone has an axe to grind. Are you claiming that none of them have?


I never had a doubt that you would.

[JasonM]

That's strange, because I talked with a friend in a hospital last week who said they hadn't run out of any PPE. In fact I can't find any confirmed examples of hospitals actually running out of PPE. Odd really.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...show-about-ppe

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...riticise-lack/

So again I ask, any documented examples of hospitals actually running out of PPE?

I could give you his number, or ask him to put it in a email, but I don’t think I will. He had no reason to make it up, and if I was making it up I could have painted a much worse picture.
When you have spoken to people in all departments in all the hospitals and have them say there is no issue then you could say there is no problem.

[number2]

No I'm not claiming that everyone has an axe to grind. Are you claiming that none of them have?

Nope.

I never had a doubt that you would.

Appreciated.

[oldoakknives]

I could give you his number, or ask him to put it in a email, but I don’t think I will. He had no reason to make it up, and if I was making it up I could have painted a much worse picture.
When you have spoken to people in all departments in all the hospitals and have them say there is no issue then you could say there is no problem.

Well think about this. For about three weeks almost every BBC news programme had an NHS worker saying how scared they were because they were running out of PPE. Why weren’t the hospital managers coming out with the same claims? If they really were that low how many actually ran out?

Now I know that the NHS staff on the front line are putting their lives on the line and many have died of the virus. Was the unavailability of PPE responsible? If so is there any evidence?

[Rod]

Moan moan moan.........some ad folks making a full-time hobby out of it, no doubt inspired by their political agenda.

I really could not be bothered posting bloody graphs to make a point ion a watch forum, some of you really do need to get a life. It's gone way beyond debate, it's political hand-wringing at every juncture.

Well said Paul. I'm sick of all this posturing and political wrangling.
It's going on on all social media, the newspapers, friends and even family.
It's like we can all do better than the health and scientific people... they must be all wrong but we are right.

[mondie]

... they must be all wrong but we are right.

Who has said that Rod?

[Onelasttime]

Well think about this. For about three weeks almost every BBC news programme had an NHS worker saying how scared they were because they were running out of PPE.

Do you have any proof of this, or is this just a general impression you have after watching a bit of telly? Personal perception? Like an NHS worker has a general impression that there isn’t enough PPE?

[oldoakknives]

Do you have any proof of this, or is this just a general impression you have after watching a bit of telly? Personal perception? Like an NHS worker has a general impression that there isn’t enough PPE?

Nugget boy?

Well I would have replied but that sort of put me off tbh.

[Saint-Just]

Ian, Nugget boy was not aimed at you but at a poster called Nugget.

[oldoakknives]

Ian, Nugget boy was not aimed at you but at a poster called Nugget.

Sorry nope.

[mondie]

Perhaps it's unremarkable when the UK death toll is 44,000 that George Eustice in a Coronavirus briefing this evening should tell furloughed workers to go pick fruit. The fact that the family business is a fruit farm is unconnected.

Still must not moan or be critical, that's just what they do.

[Onelasttime]

So no answer then? You never have any answers do you? You're preset to argue, whether you agree or not. You demand facts, evidence, statistics, but rarely produce any yourself.

[Daveya.]

They have tested 1800 footballers and the infection rate is 0.6%

Those infected are asymptomatic

Good news its so low, bad news its still.put there obviously and not just in care homes

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[JasonM]

Well think about this. For about three weeks almost every BBC news programme had an NHS worker saying how scared they were because they were running out of PPE. Why weren’t the hospital managers coming out with the same claims? If they really were that low how many actually ran out?

Now I know that the NHS staff on the front line are putting their lives on the line and many have died of the virus. Was the unavailability of PPE responsible? If so is there any evidence?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...ment-shortages

[ralphy]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...ment-shortages

'There are none so blind as those who will not see'.

R

[tleefox]

Well think about this. For about three weeks almost every BBC news programme had an NHS worker saying how scared they were because they were running out of PPE. Why weren’t the hospital managers coming out with the same claims? If they really were that low how many actually ran out?

My sister works as a nurse at Southmead Hospital in Bristol, and said that they have not seen any of the so-called "PPE shortages" and nor have any of her friends who work in other hospitals in and around the South West / Wales.

Her story throughout this is that it has been mentally very challenging, as they are regularly dealing with patients with suspected / confirmed cases of Covid-19, but from a "normal" workload point of view, it has been nowhere near "normal."

[ralphy]

Eleven local authorities, overseeing more than 1,500 maintained schools, have now expressed opposition to the plan, including the Conservative-controlled Solihull council. Teaching unions have said they’re not convinced sending pupils back is safe.

Meanwhile, the mobile tracking app that had been considered crucial to the lifting of the lockdown will not be ready until June, it has emerged, only a week after Matt Hancock said it would be “rolling out in mid May”.

R

[oldoakknives]

My sister works as a nurse at Southmead Hospital in Bristol, and said that they have not seen any of the so-called "PPE shortages" and nor have any of her friends who work in other hospitals in and around the South West / Wales.

Her story throughout this is that it has been mentally very challenging, as they are regularly dealing with patients with suspected / confirmed cases of Covid-19, but from a "normal" workload point of view, it has been nowhere near "normal."

That’s very interesting thank you. It’s not the first time I’ve heard that view from from staff.
The stresses of working alongside the virus must be great and I don’t think anyone would underestimate the bravery of those involved.

[oldoakknives]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...ment-shortages

Since that article was published on the 31st of March, it wouldn’t appear to have worked in suppressing people appearing in the media since then, BBC news especially.

[Onelasttime]

Since that article was published on the 31st of March, it wouldn’t appear to have worked in suppressing people appearing in the media since then, BBC news especially.

Are you saying that they shouldn’t speak out?

Or are you saying the BBC is interviewing ringers to suit an anti-government agenda?

What exactly are you saying? Please speak directly and stop hiding behind obfuscation.

Oh, and we’re still waiting for the evidence to support your claim that “... almost every BBC news programme had an NHS worker saying how scared they were because they were running out of PPE.”

[oldoakknives]

Are you saying that they shouldn’t speak out?

Or are you saying the BBC is interviewing ringers to suit an anti-government agenda?

What exactly are you saying? Please speak directly and stop hiding behind obfuscation.

Oh, and we’re still waiting for the evidence to support your claim that “... almost every BBC news programme had an NHS worker saying how scared they were because they were running out of PPE.”

Have you stopped calling people silly names now you’ve sobered up?

No I’m not saying people shouldn’t speak out. I think exactly the opposite actually.

Ringers? Did you see the BBC Panorama programme which has been shown to feature exclusively activists and was widely complained about.

I’m not hiding anywhere, but if you become insulting as is your normal way I will stop answering you.

As for the news programmes, you can believe me or not. BBC I Player is your friend if you wish to check.

[ralphy]

From the BMA - yesterday.

While some doctors have reported an improvement in PPE supply – some four months into the crisis – the latest BMA tracker survey shows that a large proportion are still affected by shortages.

Of those working in AGP (aerosol-generating procedure) areas, more than a quarter report shortages or no supply of scrubs, full-face visors, disposable goggles, and long-sleeved disposable goggles.


While the response of some employers has been supportive, others have been putting doctors in harm’s way. A quarter of doctors working in AGP areas say they have often or sometimes been pressured to see patients without adequate protection.

Among GPs, the situation is equally unacceptable. More than 22 per cent of those who are in contact with possible or confirmed COVID-19 have experienced shortages or no supply of fluid-repellent face masks. A third have seen shortages or no supply in eye protection with a smaller but still significant number lacking even such basics as aprons and gloves.

From the beginning of the crisis, this has been a massive failing of government. Supply has often been hand to mouth. GP practices received PPE that had their expiry dates crudely replaced. A much-heralded shipment from Turkey had severe quality issues, and problems have been reported with the national stockpile.

Women doctors have had particular problems in finding masks that fit – and the Government has known this for years.
This has profoundly affected doctors, not only those who become infected because of a lack of PPE, but those colleagues left facing even greater pressure in a depleted workforce. For all, there has been a corrosive anxiety which may affect their professional abilities. It may have been a factor in some of the tragic deaths of doctors we have been witnessing.

It has affected patients too, who may be exposed to infections being transported by healthcare workers, and who are treated by a reduced number of staff.

For more than two months, I have been receiving desperate messages on a daily basis, for example this one from a GP leader: ‘Helena – DO SOMETHING PLEASE. NO ONE IS LISTENING.’

GP practices have reported a ‘useless’ supply line, with hours in the futile pursuit of stock. I have meanwhile spoken to suppliers close to tears of frustration at having their offers of help ignored by the Government and were instead resorting to exporting materials. The BMA has rapidly passed on details to the Government of more than 70 such offers.

R

[Passenger]

Well said Paul. I'm sick of all this posturing and political wrangling.
It's going on on all social media, the newspapers, friends and even family.
It's like we can all do better than the health and scientific people... they must be all wrong but we are right.

Common sense, concern for public health and observation of what was going on next door should have led to an earlier lock down than March 23rd, heck any fool should've/could've seen and done that.
Hopefully the details of the 'science' behind HMG's idiosyncratic decisions will be published in the enquiry. The shocking mishandling of the situation goes beyond politics, the treatment, so called 'shielding' or rather lack of it for the care sector has been a disgrace.

[Onelasttime]

As for the news programmes, you can believe me or not. BBC I Player is your friend if you wish to check.

Can you check for me please, since it's you making the claim? Or maybe just don't make claims you have no real evidence for?

And sobered up? I was one 0% alcohol beer in - hardly rolling on the floor. Mind your accusations.

[Groundrush]

It strikes me that the government are getting this wrong because there is no right. We were simply not geared up for this kind of pandemic. All lockdown could ever do was buy time at the cost of the economy and that cannot be sustained. Lockdown won’t eradicate Covid. The only way out is a vaccine which may arrive this week, next week, sometime or never, or we get herd immunity which can only be achieved by lots and lots of people actually getting Covid and some of them, perhaps a lot of them, dying from it. There is no win here.

[chris56]

Common sense, concern for public health and observation of what was going on next door should have led to an earlier lock down than March 23rd, heck any fool should've/could've seen and done that.
Hopefully the details of the 'science' behind HMG's idiosyncratic decisions will be published in the enquiry.

Exactly - it was obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense. I took the decision to close our London office on 10th March as I could see the way things were going to go. Since that time all our staff have worked from home remotely and have been kept safe. A lot of our customers made the same decision that week or shortly thereafter and I think this partly explains why London has seen infections reduce quickly.
If the government had responded the same way then we would undoubtedly have seen less spread of the virus and therefore less deaths.
Similarly on lockdown easing, we will not be following the government guidelines, my view is that lockdown easing at this stage is premature until we have more concrete evidence of the extent of the reduction in R0 and more testing, tracing and isolation capability. We will take a gradual risk assessment based approach.

[Saint-Just]

Exactly - it was obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense. I took the decision to close our London office on 10th March as I could see the way things were going to go. Since that time all our staff have worked from home remotely and have been kept safe. A lot of our customers made the same decision that week or shortly thereafter and I think this partly explains why London has seen infections reduce quickly.
If the government had responded the same way then we would undoubtedly have seen less spread of the virus and therefore less deaths.
Similarly on lockdown easing, we will not be following the government guidelines, my view is that lockdown easing at this stage is premature until we have more concrete evidence of the extent of the reduction in R0 and more testing, tracing and isolation capability. We will take a gradual risk assessment based approach.

Bear in mind they had more detailed information, plus the benefit of Cygnus...

[oldoakknives]

Can you check for me please, since it's you making the claim? Or maybe just don't make claims you have no real evidence for?

And sobered up? I was one 0% alcohol beer in - hardly rolling on the floor. Mind your accusations.

No, do your own research.

Perhaps act like it then and don't go around calling people silly names.

[Onelasttime]

No, do your own research.

So it's ok to make a spurious claim then refuse to show the evidence, stating that it's out there if people would only spend x number of hours trawling through catch up TV? Genius

[oldoakknives]

It strikes me that the government are getting this wrong because there is no right. We were simply not geared up for this kind of pandemic. All lockdown could ever do was buy time at the cost of the economy and that cannot be sustained. Lockdown won’t eradicate Covid. The only way out is a vaccine which may arrive this week, next week, sometime or never, or we get herd immunity which can only be achieved by lots and lots of people actually getting Covid and some of them, perhaps a lot of them, dying from it. There is no win here.

I think you are pretty much correct in what you say there. The only question really is whether we should have spent billions preparing for something that might not have happened. Some of those shouting loudest that we should have been better prepared, would probably have called it a waste of money that could have been spent on the those in need.

[Passenger]

It strikes me that the government are getting this wrong because there is no right. We were simply not geared up for this kind of pandemic. All lockdown could ever do was buy time at the cost of the economy and that cannot be sustained. Lockdown won’t eradicate Covid. The only way out is a vaccine which may arrive this week, next week, sometime or never, or we get herd immunity which can only be achieved by lots and lots of people actually getting Covid and some of them, perhaps a lot of them, dying from it. There is no win here.

But the WHO spelled it out you need to test, track and trace then isolate and deny the virus the opportunity to spread that is how you eradicate or at least control/contain it. Also they were abundantly clear about the need to act with alacrity, waste not a day...Italy locked down March 9th...why on earth did HMG delay for a fortnight... During lock-down you use the time it has bought you to get these measures and systems in place to control and stamp it out otherwise when you 'relax' it's likely the virus will get ahead of you again, second spike...But here we are still behind the curve on getting the necessary measures in place and HMG is pushing for schools to reopen June 1st and going on what is being reported and folks comments, lock down has begun to fray.
I think to say there is no right, is to ignore the experiences of a whole range of nations, large and small, rich and poor, who've managed not to lose their grip on the virus. Additionally what was the point of the Cygnus exercise in 2017 if it's lessons were not learned. Also worth considering the lead role GB played in the response to the Ebola virus, we were acknowledged world leaders literally a few years ago in responding to epidemics, we clearly have the people and knowledge base.
I don't really see how it can be rationally, reasonably argued that there was no right.

[Saint-Just]

No, do your own research.

Perhaps act like it then and don't go around calling people silly names.

You're the first one to demand that people back up their opinions or you dismiss them and call them false. Don't turn in a sea lion, please.

[oldoakknives]

So it's ok to make a spurious claim then refuse to show the evidence, stating that it's out there if people would only spend x number of hours trawling through catch up TV? Genius

It's a discussion not a courtroom. If you really think it's not the case it's your decision. You will see many peoples views on here without written evidence and affidavits. It's a forum.

I think you need to calm down a bit.

[oldoakknives]

You're the first one to demand that people back up their opinions or you dismiss them and call them false. Don't turn in a sea lion, please.

How can I prove what was on a TV programme every day for a couple of months? It's not reasonable, and rather different to stating such and such a figure for example which can easily be verified. It's simply a red herring to detract from the point I was making.

[Saint-Just]

Indeed. Sometimes you can find it on iplayer, sometimes on YouTube. The difficulty is having a clue as what to search, whether you remember a date, the name of the participant... sometimes it will be supported with an article that can be found on the website. Someone else wouldn’t have those clues to start searching.
The point is that if YOU cannot support it maybe you shouldn’t use it. The same goes to whoever makes a claim that others find controversial or at least questionable.

[number2]

I think you are pretty much correct in what you say there. The only question really is whether we should have spent billions preparing for something that might not have happened. Some of those shouting loudest that we should have been better prepared, would probably have called it a waste of money that could have been spent on the those in need.

Isn't this why we are where we are, the government not spending money even though the expert opinion was that a pandemic was inevitable and imminent.
Oh I forgot - experts doh!

[Groundrush]

But the WHO spelled it out you need to test, track and trace then isolate and deny the virus the opportunity to spread.

That ship sailed before we even knew Covid was a thing. In the beginning there was no test, there still aren’t enough. There is no way to track or trace. Society cannot both isolate and function. The WHO are selling pipe dreams.

[oldoakknives]

Indeed. Sometimes you can find it on iplayer, sometimes on YouTube. The difficulty is having a clue as what to search, whether you remember a date, the name of the participant... sometimes it will be supported with an article that can be found on the website. Someone else wouldn’t have those clues to start searching.
The point is that if YOU cannot support it maybe you shouldn’t use it. The same goes to whoever makes a claim that others find controversial or at least questionable.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. For example if you say there have been many cases of teachers voicing concerns about going back to school, should you be able to quote specific dates and times? Or rely on others realising it is in fact the case?

[oldoakknives]

Isn't this why we are where we are, the government not spending money even though the expert opinion was that a pandemic was inevitable and imminent.
Oh I forgot - experts doh!

Did any governments act any better in preparing regarding this? What measures did they take? Whilst it is easy in hindsight to say we could have prepared better, what other crises should we be preparing for?

[Passenger]

That ship sailed before we even knew Covid was a thing. In the beginning there was no test, there still aren’t enough. There is no way to track or trace. Society cannot both isolate and function. The WHO are selling pipe dreams.

Yet Germany have managed to keep a lid on this thing with a fraction of GB's death toll, is it a quarter give or take... and they've been running test and trace teams successfully, and now are un locking in a managed fashion. I chose Germany rather than NZ, Denmark, South Korea, their Govt's also managed to chose a 'better' if not 'right' set of decisions,.. because GB/Germany are roughly similar in size, wealth and population density.

When do you reckon we knew Covid was a thing...end of January wasn't it at least 'officially'.

I think HMG have sold a crack pipe dream.

[ralphy]

Isn't this why we are where we are, the government not spending money even though the expert opinion was that a pandemic was inevitable and imminent.
Oh I forgot - experts doh!

The first priority of any government is to protect their people.

Not spending money on building up protective equipment when they have been warned is failing to protect the people (allowing the stock to dwindle is even worse).

R

[Saint-Just]

Perhaps. Perhaps not. For example if you say there have been many cases of teachers voicing concerns about going back to school, should you be able to quote specific dates and times? Or rely on others realising it is in fact the case?

I would have no difficulty in providing you with a few examples, should you ask for them...

At the end of the day it's a moot point. There has been actual shortage of PPE:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52145140

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-hospital.html

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/08/nurse...irus-12530286/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9473196.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...t-coronavirus/

Please note it was a quick search, from a broad source to avoid being accused of choosing a type of press that decries the government as a matter of principle. I also chose articles from March and April, to show it was not a punctual issue, and this despite the government downgrading the virus to reduce use of PPE and make single use item reusable.

Can we move on from this PPE point, please?

[oldoakknives]

I would have no difficulty in providing you with a few examples, should you ask for them...

At the end of the day it's a moot point. There has been actual shortage of PPE:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52145140

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-hospital.html

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/08/nurse...irus-12530286/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9473196.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...t-coronavirus/

Please note it was a quick search, from a broad source to avoid being accused of choosing a type of press that decries the government as a matter of principle. I also chose articles from March and April, to show it was not a punctual issue, and this despite the government downgrading the virus to reduce use of PPE and make single use item reusable.

Can we move on from this PPE point, please?

Have you read the links. The Independent is simply a letters page.

And you still haven't provided examples of hospitals actually running out of PPE. Although I accept stocks have been low in many, and some NHS workers haven't been issued with it by their hospitals. Others have provided examples of hospitals not having any problems with supply however.

My sister works as a nurse at Southmead Hospital in Bristol, and said that they have not seen any of the so-called "PPE shortages" and nor have any of her friends who work in other hospitals in and around the South West / Wales.

Her story throughout this is that it has been mentally very challenging, as they are regularly dealing with patients with suspected / confirmed cases of Covid-19, but from a "normal" workload point of view, it has been nowhere near "normal."

Anyway, things to do for a while.

[Saint-Just]

The letters are just examples, like when you and others quote your friends working in the NHS.
For the rest, if you consider they use bin liners for the fun instead of gowns then you are correct they did not run out. If they use them because they don’t have the choice then hospitals ran out. The fact that no manager will say so officially, I’ll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

A last link: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...f-coronavirus/

[Kingstepper]

Proof that some hospitals haven’t run out of PPE is not proof that there have been no shortages.

[oldoakknives]

Proof that some hospitals haven’t run out of PPE is not proof that there have been no shortages.

I agree.

[ralphy]

Proof that some hospitals haven’t run out of PPE is not proof that there have been no shortages.

They probably had a simple solution: despite staff having to wear bin bags/reuse single use PPE etc, if you just keep one of each item back on the shelf then you can proudly say ‘No, we haven’t run out’ - which will satisfy the ‘show me an example’. Result! (Despite the perilous situation in hundreds of front-line environments...)

R

[Andyg]

That ship sailed before we even knew Covid was a thing. In the beginning there was no test, there still aren’t enough. There is no way to track or trace. Society cannot both isolate and function. The WHO are selling pipe dreams.

Same as every country. I even heard that the UK supplied over 250k items of PPE to China at the start of the outbreak - something they repaid.

But wasn’t it the WHO would initially said that there was no need to close borders or restrict air travel.

Perhaps had the WHO instructed the Chinese to lock down Wuhan sooner, made sure that their people were repatriated sooner, that Italy had shut down immediately and stopped all its tourists from flying all over the place, etc, etc then who knows what the outcome might have been.

Perhaps the WHO should be focusing on improving hygiene standards in China in order to prevent the next outbreak of lergy. I mean how many is this now, Bird Flu, swine flu, SARS and now Covid.

[Andyg]

They probably had a simple solution: despite staff having to wear bin bags/reuse single use PPE etc, if you just keep one of each item back on the shelf then you can proudly say ‘No, we haven’t run out’ - which will satisfy the ‘show me an example’. Result! (Despite the perilous situation in hundreds of front-line environments...)

R

Why are you referencing something that was reported to have happened at the start of April, in one hospital, at the height Pandemic, in order to bolster your claim.

This occurred 6 weeks ago and since then things have changed. If you want to bang a drum, then at least keep it relevant. Why not show us your examples where a lack of PPE is impacting health care NOW.

[Onelasttime]

If you want to bang a drum, then at least keep it irrelevant.

Yeah R, keep it irrelevant FFS