I really love Seiko but I wonder if they’re just losing their way a bit as a brand?
They always had their niche with that amazing value in the sub £500 category and a number of iconic watches in their line up. But lately they seem to be going down a road that doesn’t appeal to me. They have this nasty habit of discontinuing their best watches; the Sarbs, the Alpinist and the SKX line to name a few. They’re trying to shoehorn every watch into the Seiko 5, Presage or Prospex categories, hiking their prices up quite significantly and releasing seemingly endless limited editions.
They’ve reissued the Alpinist at double the price of the old one, but it’s a near enough identical watch. The SKX has been reissued as what appears to me to be a collection of ‘diver style’ fashion watches (5KX). I wonder if they’re trying to position themselves as a more elite brand, but what they seem to be lacking is flagship watches. Rolex obviously have a number of these, and think Omega and you immediately think Speedy or Seamaster.
Seiko to me seem to suffer with a lack of these properly identifying models - and possibly the ones they did have they chopped. Think Seiko and we probably all think something different.
Personally I think they need a flagship luxury diver - the SLA017 would be a great candidate as it has the heritage of the iconic 62MAS, true Seiko DNA in its design. Market it as such and stop the LE nonsense. Likewise a flagship value diver. Upgrading the SKX rather than ditching it would’ve been the smartest thing here as it too is a brand icon. A 4R movement, ceramic bezel, better bracelet. If the likes of Steinhart can offer this at the sub £400 mark then a giant like Seiko should be able to.
Likewise a brand identifying gents sports dress watch, their own datejust - the Sarb033 and 035 were perfect for this both size and design wise yet they went, and the ones that appear to be their replacements in the Presage line up are oversized in my opinion. Grand Seiko offers the luxury option in this regard.
Maybe I’m a being a bit harsh with these criticisms, but I just feel they’re getting a bit messy as a brand, quantity over quality, too much LE nonsense, losing their identity a bit.
Others might have a totally different opinion?
I can understand why you feel the way you do, but this is a watch Forum and obviously Seiko produce watches for their worldwide market which is enormous.......... so their marketing guys decide what they will design and sell which is maybe not what a small group on a watch Forum would agree with
Last edited by BillN; 29th April 2020 at 22:25.
Wherever they’re going, I like it.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/se...49-introducing
This new SPB143/145/147 range could be the perfect sports watch. Looks amazing, got the heritage, 70h auto movement. Decent bracelet, brushed ceramic bezel for $1000.
The only thing I don’t get about Seiko is I can’t tell how much it’s going to cost. Show me a Seiko and I don’t know if it’s a £100 or £3000.
Agree they look really good👍Originally Posted by chrisparker
Also agree on the pricing comment!
I have to say that I agree very much with the OP. My collection seems to consist mostly of Seiko's but there's not much in the present line up that really appeals to me. The Seiko 5's were iconic and fantastic value for money but the latest ones seem a bit of a neither one nor the other. They've stopped producing the skx007/9's. A really good tool watch with a great fan base. Why? A better movement with hacking would have nicer than doing away with the model. The Pressage models are lovely but too big. The price hikes were inevitable. I suppose they are catering more for the American and Chinese markets these days. On the upside, perhaps there is an opening for smaller brands to provide alternatives.
Having said all that and just reading the above post, I have to say the SPB149 does look really nice. :)
Last edited by Kaffe; 29th April 2020 at 21:21.
I kinda agree with the OP, but also in some ways don't.
Disagree because...
1. Seiko's price increase is no more than any of the swiss brands.
2. Seiko's stuff is in house.
3. I think we are slightly colured by forgetting how much prices for watches have shot up regardless of brand. When I got into this hobby the Speedy Pro was give-or-take £1500 new. The Marinemaster 300m, if you include tax on the ones you you used to have to import, has gone up about £1200 in the same time period the Speedy pro has gone up nearly 2k, yet the Speedy has not changed (bar screws on the bracelet). At least the MM got sapphire, and a tweaked movement FWIW).
4. As for the SKX in what ways are they better than the SPRD's?
5. The Alpinist was not available in the UK, so add import duty and the new one is about £250 more.
6. Seiko has always had stuff at the 800-2k mark in the Japanese Prospex range, it's just that it is coming here now.
In short, what is good for the swiss goose, is good for the Japanese gander!
BUT...but.
1. Why they limit some stuff to JDM and not others makes no sense to me; why sell MM's at 2.5k when some chaper Tuna's or the Prospex Landmaster are only avaailable at the Seiko boutiques? Why is there a big range on Gnomon but not on a UK seller? That strategy seems...odd.
2. The chapter-ring lottery is daft for the prices of some watches.
3. How much would it cost them to get rid of Hardlex, bar where techncially necessary to avoid shattering?
4. More signed crowns please! This one is irrational but it bugs me.
[QUOTE=Kaffe;5400555]r. They've stopped producing the skx007/9's. A really good tool watch with a great fan base. Why? A better movement with hacking would have nicer than doing away with the model/QUOTE]
I would agree with that, I would buy that in a flash, or the HEQ version.
I appreciate a few enthusiasts on a watch forum grumbling is not representative of the wider opinion perhaps, but doing away with a watches identity does annoy those who are likely to buy. The Marine Master name went as did the Alpinist, both now generic Prospex. I can see why Seiko have done this, but image if Rolex scrapped the Submariner, SD, GMT, Daytona names and just called everything the Rolex professional range and came up with an annoying little logo that appeared on everything.
I also struggle with guessing a price. Someone posts a pic of a new LE and you think that's nice, until you see it's £3.5k, but with discounts from the on line dealers just for giving your e-mail address and some dealers seem to have as many seasonal sales as DFS means that the prices are all over the place.
More like pushing £4k on the latest Prospex Diver.
Seiko are losing their way in order to allow Grand Seiko to find theirs. At a WoS GS event last year I was talking to someone high up at Seiko by complete chance and they said they have to move Seiko up a few tiers because WoS won't stock Grand Seiko while you can buy a Seiko in Argos and H Samuel for pennies. People won't spend an extra £5k for the word "Grand".
This might be nail hit on head I think.
I love the early inexpensive Seikos that were popular a few years ago, models such as the SKX007/9, the first generation Monster, and the first generation Cocktail Time. These were a compelling blend of great design, high quality and incredible value. I’m not sure they produce anything now that I want, and prices have got to an uncomfortable level.
Grand Seiko are still amazing of course, but in mainstream Seiko there is lots of stuff that is yet another LE, pretty expensive, yet not compelling. They are pushing upmarket, maybe to support Grand Seiko, but some of the classic, fun, inexpensive watches have been lost.
I’m glad to have what I do, but other than a 300m Tuna, I think I’m done with Seiko, although GS is another matter.
Dave
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by helidoc; 30th April 2020 at 00:48.
Seiko are always 25% off at my local watch shop albeit not online and no shipping outside Canada.
https://halifaxwatch.com/collections/seiko
Last edited by canuck; 30th April 2020 at 00:59.
Whatever they are trying to do, I agree that it makes them seem really messy as a brand. At least compared to western brands. The strategy might work in Asia where I imagine most of their customers are.
In terms of their product line I feel like their older products had more of a following i.e. their divers before they were rebranded as Prospex. That being said, they seem to be getting better with the Prospex line at least. They've removed 'X' on the newest, more premium models and they're revamping those iconic designs.
I think it can be very hard to see a direction sometimes.
There seems to be a random decision maker at work.
Is this in the range or an LE? Let's toss for it
£900 or £4000? Roll the dice
What WR should we put on it, 100m, 200, 300m, 600m or 1000m? Nearest the bull decides.
There is clearly a firmer drift toward LEs or limited sales outlets for many in the range, and a drift upwards in price. I do not think this is merely keeping pace with the Swiss, it is re-positioning. Comparisons with Omega (to justify it as inflation) are not relevant in this sense, because Omega have made it abundantly clear that they too are re-positioning.
But as a fan it is very frustrrating to see that perfectly nice and reasonable watches are going to be unobtainiun because the pick of the range is an LE, or £2000 more expensive than it should be.
The range that chrisparker linked looked lovely, but one id a boutique only model, and one is an LE, so it is actually only a range of 2, not 4.
It is also frustrating that amidst all the new models (and Seiko are so huge that they will always be a shotgun not a rifle in their releases), they so clearly forget to include some really fine choices in the range. I've been waiting for a reasonable sized or Ti Kinetic GMT for ages, like the old flightmaster, but they seem to refuse to do it.
I just don't follow the logic tbh. I like the Prospex range but when there putting stuff out at £300+ to over £5000 all branded as Prospex what's the theory in that. Extreme isn't the word on the pricing philosofy.
An interesting thread, and I do agree that Seiko seem to be trying to move themselves upwards in the market with their new releases. At this time I don't know what to think, it's a risky move to move out of a market you are very successful in and try to go upmarket.
Part of me think they might of been better off lauching a different brand, e.g. Lexus, but I'm sure they know what they are doing. All I know is that these new Seiko 5 watches that are coming out, they just don't capture my heart the same way the older Seikos did.
I love a Seiko, but for me like Omega and other brands there are now two many LE's being produced. A good core range and the odd low volume LE release is al you need. Also they do need to up the QC a little.
In the west we are used to companies occupying certain price brackets, they may be budget, high end, or anything inbetween, but they will usually occupy one sector only. Japanese companies believe in covering the whole market, get the consumer buying your lower end products when they are young and poor, and generally they will then buy your mid and high range products when they are older and wealthier.
Take motorbikes for example, in the west the likes of BMW, Harley Davidson, Triumph, Ducati etc only make expensive large capacity bikes, but Honda, Suzuki etc get nippers started on field bikes, and over thirty or so years they work their way up through your products to a Goldwing or whatever.
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
Can see the logic in that.
But I don't think it's going to work to well in the West in my opinion on the average consumer. Are they going to know the difference is between say a £300 solar diver & the £5400 LX diver taking it to pricing extremities.
Personally I think the LX range is in the Grand Seiko price range. Much as I want one I would get a GS diver over the LX's unless the prices dropped.
That's my take on it, everyone has there own thoughts on the matter though.
Sent from my G3311 using Tapatalk
I can fully see and agree with the logic in your thinking also.
But maybe the idea behind the expensive LE's such as the sla017 is first to get people noticing and talking about them, and then starting to lust after them. And then those that do lust after them but cant afford them or justify the price, start buying the sub 1k "cooking" models in droves. A loss leader in other words.
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
Makes sense on LE's but definitely something afoot with the LX 's unless there planning to stick a few K on the GS divers to differentiate between them.
Sent from my G3311 using Tapatalk
Or to use the motorbike analogy again, the GS range could be likened to the luxury tourers, and the LE's/LX's the big sports bikes. Similar prices and quality, but different markets.
This doesn't quite work as there are GS divers also, but you can see where I'm going.
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
Time will tell what there logic is.
Sent from my G3311 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
Looking at this through the eyes of a newcomer without a headfull of memorised model numbers &c, Seiko have mismanaged their brands for decades in a typically Japanese way, led by what an adoring home market will tolerate.
As others have already noted - "Grand Seiko" may have existed as a brand for a very long time, but it has never made sense as a premium identity outside of Japan: everywhere else associates the word "Seiko" with mass-market fodder.
They should have bitten the bullet decades ago and made Credor the full-scale halo brand, Seiko then becomes their "Tudor", and Pulsar, Lorus, Alba and Orient get to occupy the mass-market in a properly-stratified manner - ideally without the confusing, multiply-overlapping ranges. Huge cost-saving in that alone...
The almost universal prospex logo is painting everything with the same brush. Kills so much of the range for me.
I'd generally agree with your point about their direction. As an skx, turtle, tuna quartz and mm300 owner, I'm not sure I'll ever buy any more.
Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
Yes Seiko to my mind have been a mess and have had far too many models for many years, apart from GS and SD. I think the cases, dials, hands and bracelets are great but the lower end movements are poor from my experience and I wish they did a quality mid tier movement that, in my opinion, is as good as an ETA 2824/2892, accompanied by an "affordable" price point. You see great new models come out at a mid price point and you love the design BUT, it has the 6r15/6r35 series movements, which are to me, average at best. I know people will bleat on about the reliability and simple, crude and yet effective designs of the cheaper movements but it doesn't cut it for me anymore. I would only get a vintage or new GS or SD and avoid the rest.
An interesting question and I am going to try and answer by way of being a regular member of the public.
I am not concerned what direction Seiko is going in. This is a matter for their board of directors and shareholders.
For me, as long as they produce reasonably priced, nice quality, reasonably accurate and interesting models, I will continue to browse and buy from time to time.
This is also my view as a watch enthusiast, who incidentally is wearing one of their watches as he types.
The drift of the thread is that a lot of people don't think they do that anymore.
I have everything from Bellmatics, Seiko 5s, SKX007, MM300, a GS, and quite a few inbetween - some of which I've probably forgotten about.
I would say that most of my watch-buying life I've had some Seiko or other in my sights. Everything they produce at the moment is passing me by, though.
I do think it is true that they are blasting a lot out in a kind of random fashion. There is also a weird price gap between about £1200 and 2.5k; loads of stuff outside of that price band.
And the Astron stuff (and it's prices) make no sense IMHO.
The Prospex X thing does not bother me too much (but it is all over the shop) as all the classics were classed as Prospex anyway.
Haven't Seiko always been like that? The scattergun approach?
They've done OK so far and will continue to do so as far as I'm concerned.
They make hundreds of variants of their ranges but most people will only be attracted to one or two anyway.
Cheers,
Neil.
I do miss the Marine Master logo, it always made a Seiko special. There were threads where Marine Masters were compared to Submariners and Seadwellers, hav'nt seen that happening with Prospex.
Don't mind the Prospex logo but dropping the Marinemaster was a bit of a clanger in my opinion.
This!
Losing the MM logo really was a mistake. I sometimes think about finding an older dial to put in my SLA021 but when checking the time I never notice it.
To me, it looks like prices are going up, while quality and QC stay the same.
In discussions about microbrand watches around the $400 mark, people would always argue "you could get the same quality Seiko for way less money".
And I think that's increasingly not the case anymore.
They arnt going overpriced. They are overpriced already.
I remember when I started out in this hobby and the 007 / 009 / 013 were a good value watch, I could get them from creation for £125.
The main competitor I felt were the Orient mako . ray type watches that were cheaper again, about £100.
They are closer in quality than Seiko fans would admit.
Then every year Seiko put prices up and up and now they are roughly double the price I remember them.
The Orients are almost the SAME price.
So they are both a similar Japan watch maker and one doubles in price and the other stays roughly the same and have similar quality.
Now the Orient Ray 2 is a way better value buy than a 007. By a considerably amount.
I really don’t see any change to Seiko. The 007 watch was popular with mostly WIS who wanted a cheap watch to mod. Awful bracelet and poor time keeping it was hardly the best watch in the world. The new Seiko 5 has a better movement and 100m water resistant is more than enough for most people.
Seiko still have the 5 line up that still sell for £60 to £150 and I don’t see Seiko suddenly stopping selling in high street shops because they want to sell a few Grand Seiko watches. That sounds more like wishful thinking of GS dealers, why on earth would they want to stop making a fortune selling bread and butter watches so a few dozen people can feel a bit better about spending 6K on a Seiko?
Seiko still have the presage line up and they have always run certain watches to a limit then moved onto something else. I have a SARB bought it years ago. It’s a nice watch but at the time I don’t remember anyone thinking it was the next big thing I think it’s more of a case of once it’s gone we miss it.
The whole GS boom came at a time of a cheap Japanese currency and the entry level quartz ones being had for just over a grand and entry level mechanicals for about 2.5k. The popularity being an excellent value watch with quality equal to the Swiss. Now Seiko are gouging the hell out of GS customers and producing some utter eyesores to boot doesn’t really mean Seiko are losing their way, just seems to me Seiko doing what Seiko do.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
