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Thread: Any builders here; 50s bay window issue ...

  1. #1
    Master
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    Any builders here; 50s bay window issue ...

    I’m after some advice. I have a post war rental house and I think the bay is on the move.

    What is the construction between the windows?

    The wall in the bedroom below the upper bay window feels flimsy and maybe has moved a bit.

    Is it just a wooden frame with tiles hanging from it an plastered on the inside? Feels “soft” on the inside.

    Photo below.

    Last edited by Montello; 27th April 2020 at 22:24.

  2. #2
    Craftsman jeff's Avatar
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    Hi,

    difficult to be certain from just a photo but most likely of timber stud construction. Inside will be plasterboard (or possibly lath & plaster) and the outside hanging tiles on battens.

    Issues can sometimes arise when the original timber windows are replaced with upvc. Structural support via metal baypoles (or a similar arrangement) is needed to avoid the bay sagging, especially if clad with tiles. Sometimes this is bodged.

  3. #3
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    EDIT: my post crossed the one above

    It may well be timber studs with brick on edge infill between.
    The original timber windows were a structural element and the UPVC retrofit are much flimsier by comparison and as stated, is likely to have sagged.

    Remove top window frame, take away bay structure and rebuild in fresh timbers and phenolic insulation, breathable membrane and re-tile exterior.
    Last edited by reggie747; 27th April 2020 at 22:52.

  4. #4
    I’m a plasterer and yes these are wood and lathe and plaster, they also can get very cold and get condensation problems , I’ve removed a lot in my time and celotexed and insulate plasterboarded

  5. #5
    Master
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    Any thoughts on what I’d expect to pay, does the top window need to be removed to fix this?

  6. #6
    Master
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    The fix really depends on how much the bay has moved, do you have any phots on the inside.
    it has been caused by poor supports to the downstairs windows, there may not be any structural posts between the bay segments, or the may be poles without any jacks, the post or pole should transfer the load and carry the weight of the tiles studwork and 1st floor window.

    The poles may be just resting on the external cill and this is compressing, or the post has not been packed tight and the structure above has droped to meet the downstairs window.

  7. #7
    Master
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    I have just noticed the facia board has been cut to allow the side casement windows to open upstairs

  8. #8
    I would look at, when did you purchase the house? We’re there any guarantees on the windows? A friend had a similar problem and it was because the lower window had been fitted with no support for th supper structure.

    Could that be it?

  9. #9
    Master
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    The join between the left hand (as we look at it) side window and the front is not straight, there is a gap at the top. This might suggest movement or shoddy initial installation.

  10. #10
    Master
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    Thanks for the comments.

    The windows were installed probably 18 years ago before I owned it, as where the facisas. The facias where poorly installed and fouled the casements so they were simply cut to allow the windows to open. A bodge but not my doing.

    I’m assuming the ground floor window isn’t providing the same support as the timber window it replaced and so the stud tiled section and the window above are sagging.

    What is odd is that all the windows open freely so its not like the frames are being distorted.

    I assume the solution here is remove the top window, hack off the plaster inside to see what’s happening with the stud work and then check that bay poles have been used on the bottom window and straighten the whole show up and brace it to the brickwork. Then insulate and replaster.

    My suspicions are that this has been on the move for years and rather than the tenant tell me they have just filled the gaps.


    Would I use a window fitter or a builder?


    Edit. Just found a photo from 2013 which is the same so what ever has gone on isn’t progressing. I’m thinking poorly fitted bays.
    Last edited by Montello; 28th April 2020 at 09:11.

  11. #11
    Good threa, one of my lower bays i think is developing cracks, first thing i'm doing now is checking the support underneath when i get home and will get someone round to have a look if lockdown ever finishes...

  12. #12
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Thanks for the comments.

    The windows were installed probably 18 years ago before I owned it, as where the facisas. The facias where poorly installed and fouled the casements so they were simply cut to allow the windows to open. A bodge but not my doing.

    I’m assuming the ground floor window isn’t providing the same support as the timber window it replaced and so the stud tiled section and the window above are sagging.

    What is odd is that all the windows open freely so its not like the frames are being distorted.

    I assume the solution here is remove the top window, hack off the plaster inside to see what’s happening with the stud work and then check that bay poles have been used on the bottom window and straighten the whole show up and brace it to the brickwork. Then insulate and replaster.

    My suspicions are that this has been on the move for years and rather than the tenant tell me they have just filled the gaps.


    Would I use a window fitter or a builder?


    Edit. Just found a photo from 2013 which is the same so what ever has gone on isn’t progressing. I’m thinking poorly fitted bays.
    Yes down to poor fitting and the lack of a proper sytem to carry the load.

    Ok so you need to arrest the movement before you start to take anything out.
    First inspect the downstairs bay to confirm the presence of poles and that they go throught the bay cill and the load is carried by the brickwork, not just resting on the upvc cill, there should be a bay jack at the bottom so the pole can be tightened to take up any gap, abit like an acrow prop inside the window. If the poles are not correct you will need to get this sorted. Not many window companies will want to take on this sort of a job so really you would be looking at getting the downstairs window replaced.

    Then moving upstairs you could either remove all the plaster and clean the join between the the timber stub and the wall and try to pull the bay back a little, then stap the bay stud wall to the main house wall using flat steel straps, them make good the plaster.
    it dificult to see how far the bay has move as you dont have any internal photos.

    Get a window company to replace the downs stair and see if they will take on the work to the bay upstairs, i would go for a small local company with a good reputation and leave the more well known national companies alone.

    Where about is the house?

  13. #13
    Master
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    Ok, thanks for the input.

    Been over to the property and had a hack out of the inside upper bay, it is old style lath and plaster. Stud section with no insulation and tiles hanging on the outside.

    The bay is only really moving out on the side shown in the image, other side is not bad.

    Pulled the trim off the windows to reveal the poles, they are the old style sat on the cils not the ones with the mini acro sat on the brickwork.

    The lower window is fine.

    I suspect looking at the exterior sealant work that this movement happened at installation and hasn’t moved since.

    Plan is to remove the top window, pull the bay back in and steel strap it to the brickwork. Re install the window and then insulate the bay and then re plaster.

    Basically poorly installed and now we will be putting it right and adding insulation.

    Probably a couple of days work for a decent window fitter.

    Thanks for the input.

  14. #14
    I lived in a 1920’s built house in southwest London and movement of the bay was picked up in the survey. I noticed that every house up the street with replacement windows - which was 95% of them - had external cracks to a greater or lesser extent at the edges of the bay often a couple of feet long. Mine only had 1-2mm cracks on the inside. I lived in the house for 20 years and it never got worse, don’t think it even came up in the survey when we sold it - I just polyfilla’d the hairline cracks that would re emerge every 5 years or so if we had a hot summer. Actually I don’t think anyone up the street had theirs repaired either - most were owned and it was quite a well to do area, clearly wasn’t really an issue


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Master mindforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    I lived in a 1920’s built house in southwest London and movement of the bay was picked up in the survey. I noticed that every house up the street with replacement windows - which was 95% of them - had external cracks to a greater or lesser extent at the edges of the bay often a couple of feet long. Mine only had 1-2mm cracks on the inside. I lived in the house for 20 years and it never got worse, don’t think it even came up in the survey when we sold it - I just polyfilla’d the hairline cracks that would re emerge every 5 years or so if we had a hot summer. Actually I don’t think anyone up the street had theirs repaired either - most were owned and it was quite a well to do area, clearly wasn’t really an issue


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That's pretty much exactly what I experienced with my previous house, a 1920s house in North London.

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