Yes
No
Not sure
I'm not putting this in the bear pit, as it's just a genuine question I'm hoping for feed back on.
Should we ban flights from America. not in retaliation to Trumps ban on flight from the UK, but
1) Due to widespread lack of self isolation / social distancing that's been observed?
2) Due to the almost certainly premature lifting of restrictions?
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Should we allow passenger flights from abroad at all?
We haven't bothered checking - let alone quarantining- passengers coming from abroad, unlike other countries like Israel. Should Spain, with much tougher rules on lockdown, allow people travelling from the UK, where the rules are somehow more lax?
It's actually much more a political question than a public health one.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Are commercial flights still going to and from America? I thought most flights around the world were now grounded.
I have not heard of any plans for them to lift any restrictions yet and to what extent people there may be ignoring the rules may be dependant on what media outlet you read. I wonder if it really is as large scale as some media suggests.
Ideally we should ban all flights coming in, or put people in 14 days quarantine when they enter the country. I'm surprised anyone wants to travel at the moment!
Agreed.Originally Posted by walkerwek1958
Interestingly quarantine comes from the Venetian for 40, quarantena, which was the length of time ships were made to wait for in isolation during the days of plague.
I think it's very much a public health question and I'd have gone for a total ban unless able to be tested and certified as virus free. Ludicrous to expect folk to self isolate when they 'feel' fine, akin to the Police putting illegal immigrants on trains unescorted.
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How long until we are all getting tested as we go through baggage control and those that fail the test are restricted from travel?
I think you should have couched the question differently as "Should we ban flights from America?" looks like a "retaliation" regardless of you saying it isn't.
In answer to "Should we ban flights from Abroad"?" I'd say yes. we are in lockdown after all.
Its odd how we are approaching the whole subject of travel restrictions or lack of / selective incoming etc
Cast your mind back a month and a coach load of people were put in quarantine near Chester...
But nobody coming in now is even temperature checked ?
Friends of mine drove home from Italy 4 weeks ago through France etc straight onto Eurostar.....no checks nada...
Would that be a bad thing though, given the confined space in a plane, the cramped bathrooms, the proximity of the seating, the onboard ventilation system etc, how many times have you experienced a 'regular' cold or sore throat, after a couple of long haul flights...It's fairly regular ime , a bit like cruise ships they're flying petri dishes.
Interesting thread indeed.
I have parents, both over 70, living in UK.
Isolating appropriately as they have been advised.
Sadly, certain elements of British society cannot seem to grasp the fact that social isolation and distancing as well as other measures does reduce the ability of COVID to spread. Look at what New Zealand has done - shut its borders , compulsorily quarantined arrivals (only on so called mercy flights now) and encouraged its citizens to follow the simple rules. There are no parks full of people drinking and sunbathing etc. Australia guilty too....Bondi Beach images speak for themselves.
The vast majority of NZ has no symptoms yet isolation continues for all citizens and despite the few occasions where rules have been flouted, they continue to see fewer and fewer cases. Interesting that ROI with an almost identical population has had significantly more cases and significantly more deaths.
Britain SHOULD have closed the airports - most cases in NZ originated from travellers entering from overseas. To put it simply, many countries have failed to appreciate the sheer power of this virus and are paying for this dearly.
Last edited by DrDunc; 21st April 2020 at 11:30.
I’m a LH pilot that has been flying regularly to the US during the lockdown. From what I’ve seen the passengers are still just people trying to get home, most just connecting through the UK. These aren’t people travelling for business and these aren’t the bondi beach crowd travelling on holiday.
The reality of the situation is that the aircraft are almost empty, Heathrow is utterly dead...through the airport, you’d struggle to be closer than 20m from someone let alone 2m...there are more people wiping stuff down with antibacterial cleaner than actual passengers. Same or even quieter at US airports. I feel 100x less at risk from contracting coronavirus through the aircraft and airport than I do going shopping at Tesco/Sainsbury’s.
Stop transatlantic flying or flights from abroad and all those medical supplies that come from Chicago/Philadelphia/around the world etc wont be arriving in the UK. Stopping the few passengers on those aircraft will have pretty much zero effect at the moment on the UK coronavirus stats.
No I quite agree, think it's not only a great idea but a necessary one until we have a vaccine in place. Couldn't think of anything right now i'd less like to do than sit on a packed plane flying long haul.
I clarified why America in my original post.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Personally all non essential flights should be stopped.
Essential flights would be.
1) People returning to their country of origin / home.
2) Essential supplies.
It would be ideal if those travelling had been tested and confirmed negative but understand this is difficult - those tested positive should be isolated and staff should have PPE.
Basically common sense stuff when money and profit is ignored - of course this is totally 'blue sky'.
Basically it doesn't really matter why we would do it, if we did: Trump would see that as an attack and he would retaliate.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Which is what the reality of the current situation is. Believe me, there is zero commercial profit in passengers at the moment. It’s all cargo, which has doubled in cost to transport.
I think that as a professional took part in this thread and said that planes are mostly empty, and as passenger planes also carry cargo, we shouldn't be too much worried about it. I suggest that the impact would indeed be negligible.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It’s sickening to see how permeable we have been since COVID-19 showed itself. I can’t help thinking where we would be now if we hadn’t banned flights but had ensured anyone arriving and intending to leave the airport was quarantined for 14 days and others arriving on connecting flights had been limited in movement between flights and prevented from mingling with other members of the public.
Much to my utter amazement, I agree with you. Just shows there is a first time for everything.
Exactly, which is why virtually no one is doing it unless it really is essential so a ban would have little impact.
I think yes, but not a blanket ban on travel from all states. New York yes, Montana no (perhaps, for example)
I suspect most overseas travellers come from countries with far lower per capita infections than the UK so we are in theory safer having them come in. Just have people wear masks in public, practice social distancing and then what difference does it make compared to the population already resident here?
WHat are we supposed to do - lockdown in perpetuity awaiting a vaccine? Have to open up sooner rather than later.
Last edited by ryanb741; 21st April 2020 at 12:39.
I presume you don't live in the UK yourself?
You seem to have a strange idea of what the UK is like at the moment.
The parks aren't full of partying people, the airports aren't jammed with tourists jetting off on holiday, the shops aren't full of shoppers buying luxury items (unless you count flour), the roads aren't jammed with day trippers off to the seaside.
You're getting the tabloid headline version of the UK by the sound of it.
In answer to the original question, No.
The vast majority will be UK citizens coming home, I don't suppose many of you would want to be stuck abroad right now.
However, we should test everyone coming in and/or put them into isolation for 14 days if they want to come here.
M
PS I won't even go near the question of masks...
Last edited by snowman; 21st April 2020 at 12:43.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I’d agree with the above about the media. Don’t be fooled by the media portrayal of the US at the moment either. Yes, there will be pockets of idiots around much as there are anywhere else. Unfortunately, this is what generates a media story. I’ve visited Seattle, Philly and Chicago in the last three weeks and they are absolutely dead and taking social distancing as seriously as we do. At a guess, with their healthcare system and the associated costs, I’d say they are more concerned about catching it than we are as a population. From what I’ve seen during layovers, at this moment in time, US cities are no worse than London.
Passenger flights: yes.
Cargo flights: no.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Well Andy they say Corona is here to stay so that being the case how long before the world starts turning again. Food for thought the original coronavirus was brought to my state by a European at the Biogen conference. Marthas Vineyard received their dose from a wealthy person who flew to the island from yep you guessed it the UK!
Hmmmm.
R“We still do not know the origin of the outbreak at the meeting, and we will not speculate about it,” Biogen spokeswoman Anna Robinson told the Boston Herald. “What happened at the meeting demonstrates what is now clear to everyone about the speed with which this disease spreads.”
Last edited by ralphy; 21st April 2020 at 13:57.
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Cherry picking the news again Ralphy
Nobody is flying from the US or the other way on fun flight jollies so I think the question is moot.
Of course there are idiots in the USA not taking social distancing seriously - but there are plenty here too.
Cheers,
Neil.
Yes.
Always
If you are going to ban flights from the US, then there are a heap of other countries which you can add to the list including most of Europe, Asia, South America and of course Africa.
Plus given that Covid19 has a 14 day incubation period, then you either ban ALL flights or no flights.
Temp Testing is pointless because a passenger might simply have a non-Covid19 fever. It would not identity a Covid19 asymptomatic carrier.
Testing is the only way to be sure, but for that to work any passenger would have to go into quarantine for 14 days before being released into the wild - not much good if you are on a two week holiday.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Stopping all flights isn't the answer as people still need to move around for essential business or compelling personal reasons. Reducing flights, testing arriving passengers, quarantining those who test positive and tracing their contacts is a more viable approach.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
I think that any flights from the third world need seriously addressing at any time never mind these times.
I FEEL LIKE I'M DIAGONALLY PARKED IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE
My comments were indeed based on what I see and read on the world media sites.....how else can one keep abreast of what is happening in the UK and the rest of the world?
I am British and do have family in the UK.....but I also have my close family here. I am deeply concerned by this virus and yes, I do work on the front line seeing these patients so I do have some experience. Social distancing works....if I run (within 2 miles of my home only is the advice) people avoid me and I avoid them. My bubble is my close family and my work colleagues - split into 3 teams, 1 active, 2 working from home on telephone calls to patients etc just like in the UK...if 1 team gets sick, the other 2 can continue to work. I have no contact with the non working teams F2F and contact the public is absolutely minimal.....and this is mirrored outside....the streets ARE empty. It is the only way to control the spread of this virus as there is no hope of a vaccine or cure in the near future - it takes time. The idea of reducing or cancelling flights from the USA is sensible....as mentioned, I can think of nothing worse than being on a virus laden aircraft, at huge risk of potentially contracting COVID.....but would one not therefore consider Europe as well, and the Far East and Middle East? Compulsory 14 day quarantine would be the only way.
If my parents were to catch this, I doubt they would survive given their underlying health status...but its the asymptomatic individuals out there who will continue to pass this virus around communities unless there are robust measures in place to maintain a good degree of social isolation. People just need to be as fastidious with their hand washing / personal hygiene as they are with their avoidance of anyone outside their "bubble".
And on that note, I will now head off to work. I am fortunate to be where I am right now, with my wife and children, but I desperately miss my parents and sister....it looks awful in the UK, as well as in many countries around the world but there is hope on the horizon.
Indeed, it's a challenge to judge what's true and not from media coverage, but the reality is far more disciplined and well behaved than you're clearly getting the impression of.
Yes, there have been a few cases of foolish behaviour by a tiny minority, but even those seem to have abated, despite the ongoing unseasonably good weather.
There are issues, but most people are being sensible and behaving pretty much as you describe, crossing the road to avoid passing close, only going out for food, medical supplies or a bit of isolated exercise and generally not mixing with others.
Most businesses are closed as are all public buildings, pubs, restaurants (except some takeaways), libraries, sports facilities, etc
I can't speak for everyone and everywhere, but from what I see, hear and read, such behaviour seems to be the norm, not stupid behaviour.
There was a report tonight that UK air traffic was down by 90% and I would presume most of what remains is air cargo as virtually no-one is travelling for business or pleasure (I can't say no one, but certainly no one I know or have heard of through work, across Europe is doing so and haven't been for longer than the lockdown has applied) and most airlines have their entire fleet mothballed at regional airports.
A friend of mine is trying to arrange for her daughter to come home from Brazil (as pre-arranged). Her BA flight was cancelled and the next one is 1st June! There just aren't planes full of Coronavirus infected passengers, zooming around the Northern hemisphere, so banning passenger flights from anywhere would have a tiny impact on transmission, although I would agree quarantine for anyone arriving in any country would seem a sensible precaution.
Keep up the good work, if there's any justice from this health workers will be more valued after it, but we'll have to see.
I'm sure we all hope this passes as soon as possible and you can visit your parents again.
M
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Last edited by snowman; 21st April 2020 at 21:57.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Not cherry-picking at all. So can you provide the source of this: 'the original coronavirus was brought to my state by a European at the Biogen conference. Marthas Vineyard received their dose from a wealthy person who flew to the island from yep you guessed it the UK!' for comparison against the report from the Boston Herald?Cherry picking the news again Ralphy
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Given that this should be essential/repatriation or cargo, it’s a ‘no’ from me.
Quarantine conditions could also be added.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
There's not really any point banning arrivals from any particular country when other travelers are allowed in. The better policy would be to enforce a strict 14-day quarantine policy for anyone arriving from abroad. Singapore and Hong Kong have enforced this along with social distancing policies and contact tracing. They use apps and location tracing bracelets to enforce the quarantine. A lot of residents arriving from abroad have also been put in hotel rooms.
Hong Kong seems to be faring better as they went into lockdown earlier and have also banned all non-residents from arriving earlier.
I agree with Hafle's comment. IMO it's discriminatory for the UK to ban arrivals from particular countries. It's either no ban or ban all non-residents from travelling in. Sadly it's not like there are many countries that have higher cases and death tolls than the UK either.
Some people like to holiday there.
That, and a not insignificant proportion of British citizens with family in ‘third world’ locations. You can definitely feel the Daily Mail influence here sometimes.
fwiw I reckon one thing this pandemic has demonstrated is the danger inherent in applying the old labels of 1st, 2nd, 3rd world, in a very real sense are we not all Wuhan now, because we are all globally, even intimately connected by this virus on one shrinking world.
Also the response to this crisis by some of the richest most 'developed' nations, I'll mention no names... respect for our host, has been rather shown up by places probably perceived by some, maybe many, as lower down the 'old' scale...just a couple of thoughts, certainly been an eye opener.
Last edited by Passenger; 22nd April 2020 at 11:25.
My Canadian in-laws, stuck in Spain, told us a similar story: German neighbours, in their 80s, drove from the Alicante area to their home in Hamburg! You can't drive that distance without refueling etc. No checks, no problems at the borders.Friends of mine drove home from Italy 4 weeks ago through France etc straight onto Eurostar.....no checks nada...
M
Well put. Took an indiscriminate virus to show that the old scale is not relevant anymore.
I really agree when people say that Covid is the "great leveller" as poorer members of society are still impacted more in a lot of places. However there might be something to it between countries in the international scale.
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