Self employed people virus payments

[xellos99]

No sorry it’s to maximise benefits only

Your entitled to your opinion, just saying from actual people I see do it and how they actually think in the real world.

[speedypro1111]

Your entitled to your opinion, just saying from actual people I see do it and how they actually think in the real world.

The real world I’m afraid is for many good people including the self employed
For no fault of they’re own , income has suddenly collapsed
And some of these may end up on benefits that they rightfully deserve
The ones who plan in advance and hide money etc under the mattress unfortunately don’t
That’s my opinion anyway but obviously yours differs

[Chairman LMAO]

As a ltd company director and 'self-employed' contractor I can confirm that you're pretty uninformed JPCain86.

A question for the group: A mate operates as a sole trader, the government has provided the following guidance:

Your self-employed trading profits must also be less than £50,000 and more than half of your income come from self-employment. This is determined by at least one of the following conditions being true:

1) having trading profits/partnership trading profits in 2018-19 of less than £50,000 and these profits constitute more than half of your total taxable income
2) having average trading profits in 2016-17, 2017-18, and 2018-19 of less than £50,000 and these profits constitute more than half of your average taxable income in the same period

Assume Point 1 does not apply and Point 2 does:

- Self employed trading profit over 16-17, 17-18, 18-19 averages as £49999
- At the same time, each year (16-17, 17-18, 18-19) the same person also earns £5000 via PAYE

Am I right in thinking that because the PAYE element is less than half the self employed income it will be ignored/discounted and the average self-employed profit of £49999 is the qualifying factor?

Thanks

[Kingstepper]

“Your self-employed trading profits must also be less than £50,000”.

Seems clear enough.

[JPCain86]

As a ltd company director and 'self-employed' contractor I can confirm that you're pretty uninformed JPCain86.

A question for the group: A mate operates as a sole trader, the government has provided the following guidance:



Assume Point 1 does not apply and Point 2 does:

- Self employed trading profit over 16-17, 17-18, 18-19 averages as £49999
- At the same time, each year (16-17, 17-18, 18-19) the same person also earns £5000 via PAYE

Am I right in thinking that because the PAYE element is less than half the self employed income it will be ignored/discounted and the average self-employed profit of £49999 is the qualifying factor?

Thanks

Wait a minute. I am only stating what my friends and people I know do. Why do people think I am giving advice.

The point I made about tax was that a lot of my friends offset costs that really aren't business costs and costs that other PAYE employees don't get to offset ie a coffee in the morning.

When you talk about profit it's a different ball game because these costs have already been deducted.

For clarity as I think I've only said it 5 times. These are just what people I know do. Some people might not claim for their coffees and travel to the same office etc

[learningtofly]

Well, I've just been exchanging emails with my accountants, and had an idea that seems to fly.

Directors are apparently considered to be employees for the purposes of furlough. Going forward, therefore, if we pay ourselves a salary instead of a dividend, then it seems that it should be covered by the 80% furlough repayment.

[MB2]

Well, I've just been exchanging emails with my accountants, and had an idea that seems to fly.

Directors are apparently considered to be employees for the purposes of furlough. Going forward, therefore, if we pay ourselves a salary instead of a dividend, then it seems that it should be covered by the 80% furlough repayment.

I can see how I would Furlough my employees but struggling to see how I would furlough myself as I think if there is no work for me the company can't exist.

I do see how a "one man ltd" could pause trading if no contracts and so furlough they only employee at 80% of their salary, as for most this is probably 80% of 700 it probably won't help much.

[noTAGlove]

Having been a one man band Ltd company (Contractor) and an employee, I feel I can comment with experience.

This experience relates to one man band Ltd company in professional jobs, so don’t jump down my throat if it doesn’t relate to you.

The majority of Ltd company Contractors in O&G work for years for the same company in the same role and their staff equivalents. Prior to (upcoming) IR35 enforcement and before changes to divi was made (only recently), being a Contractor was a beanfeast. I know, as I was part of it back then.

Take home pay (even with holidays, pension, sick etc) was more than twice the staff equivalent, and many of the people I knew then ploughed their money (which they couldn’t spend) in BTLs to make even more money. Takes money to make money and all that.

A lot of people had a good 20 to 30 year run at this and made their fortune. Recent changes to divi and IR35 has diminished the benefits of being a Contractor and boy do they moan about it.

Despite earning £100k++, the Contractors I was surrounded by where constantly whinging on a daily basis about IR35 and whether the client they worked for would class them as PAYE come April.

I’ve seen very few Contractors take the Kings shilling and go staff, and subject themselves to PAYE marginal income tax rates of up to 60%. Funny that.

Early joiners to the party will be suffering and I have sympathy, but for those Contractors who have been working full time for the same client year after year, and have been at it for a while, I have little sympathy as they have not contributed enough to the State. Live by the sword.........

[learningtofly]

I can see how I would Furlough my employees but struggling to see how I would furlough myself as I think if there is no work for me the company can't exist.

I do see how a "one man ltd" could pause trading if no contracts and so furlough they only employee at 80% of their salary, as for most this is probably 80% of 700 it probably won't help much.

Well, I'm waiting for an update from them. However, they were clear that I could furlough myself as a director/employee; it matters not that I don't have any work right now, as long as the business can fund whatever I pay myself.

[Captain Morgan]

Well, I'm waiting for an update from them. However, they were clear that I could furlough myself as a director/employee; it matters not that I don't have any work right now, as long as the business can fund whatever I pay myself.

My worry here is what about our general admin tasks during this furlough period, be that touting for new business, dealing with HMRC/accountants, developing existing leads or even picking up a day or two’s consultancy?

Given the nature of a owner/director role some understanding/direction from HMRC would be good...

[Kingstepper]

My worry here is what about our general admin tasks during this furlough period, be that touting for new business, dealing with HMRC/accountants, developing existing leads or even picking up a day or two’s consultancy?

Given the nature of a owner/director role some understanding/direction from HMRC would be good...

Rules are that can’t do any work while furloughed so seems impossible. Who will even unfurlough the employee!

[Craizeehair]

My understanding now is that we can furlough ourselves as directors, as we both take a small wage PAYE, if we furlough ourselves we can claim 80% of that wage. The caveat is that we must not undertake any work during that period.

I’m pretty sure the way we will go is this:

Furlough my son and he will not work, as a trainee this should be no problem to us.

Furlough one of us two directors and the other will try to pick up enough work so that we can keep earning and not need to claim the extra furlough and keep the business ticking over.

This will hopefully prove to be a viable option, the workload has dropped off a cliff but there may be enough to sustain one of us.

I am sure that the amount you can claim is based on whatever you were declared to be earning on the payroll as of Feb 28th

[MB2]

Completely agree that there are so many myths and BS being spouted here that resemble nothing like the facts of running a Ltd company & the tax affairs.

£10k tax on £100k income is just not possible, at all.

Unfortunatley, both for the general perception of the self employed and also for those who took advantage some tried to achieve this, by being paid with convoluted loans via a trust in the IOM or Jersey.

HMRC has inevitably caught up with these schemes and the users will most likely end up paying more in the end (tax due plus the fees for the scheme) - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...eview/guidance

[learningtofly]

My understanding now is that we can furlough ourselves as directors, as we both take a small wage PAYE, if we furlough ourselves we can claim 80% of that wage. The caveat is that we must not undertake any work during that period.

I’m pretty sure the way we will go is this:

Furlough my son and he will not work, as a trainee this should be no problem to us.

Furlough one of us two directors and the other will try to pick up enough work so that we can keep earning and not need to claim the extra furlough and keep the business ticking over.

This will hopefully prove to be a viable option, the workload has dropped off a cliff but there may be enough to sustain one of us.

I am sure that the amount you can claim is based on whatever you were declared to be earning on the payroll as of Feb 28th

If your last paragraph is correct then that puts paid to my theory for sure!

[Craizeehair]

I’ll check Tony but I’m pretty sure that I saw that on the government website?

[Craizeehair]

I’ll check Tony but I’m pretty sure that I saw that on the government website?

Lifted from the government website, answering questions about the scheme.


Guidance
Claim for wage costs through the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme

Full time and part time employees
For full time and part time salaried employees, the employee’s actual salary before tax, as of 28 February should be used to calculate the 80%. Fees, commission and bonuses should not be included

[Kingstepper]

Lifted from the government website, answering questions about the scheme.


Guidance
Claim for wage costs through the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme

Full time and part time employees
For full time and part time salaried employees, the employee’s actual salary before tax, as of 28 February should be used to calculate the 80%. Fees, commission and bonuses should not be included

Amazed that accountants don't know these basic details TBH.

[learningtofly]

Lifted from the government website, answering questions about the scheme.


Guidance
Claim for wage costs through the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme

Full time and part time employees
For full time and part time salaried employees, the employee’s actual salary before tax, as of 28 February should be used to calculate the 80%. Fees, commission and bonuses should not be included

Thanks very much, but based on what - the tax year to date? Or in/for February alone?

[Craizeehair]

The below is on their site, my interpretation is that the payroll had to have been set up on 28th Feb?


The scheme is open to all UK employers that had created and started a PAYE payroll scheme on 28 February 2020.

[beechcustom]

I do not wish my fellow self-employed UK citizens any more hardship at this time but there is a delicious poetic justice at work here. I've been self-employed since 2008 and I declare 100% of my profits and I include all bank interest earnings on my annual self-assessment. Clearly not all of the self-employed are out to deceive the Treasury but I've been in enough hotel rooms and green rooms waiting to go on stage to hear many fellow self-employed musicians brag about the fact that they declare only enough to 'just pay tax' or indeed to fall below the tax threshold. In my experience 'creative accounting' is very widespread in my sector and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same elsewhere.

[Skyman]

Amazed that accountants don't know these basic details TBH.

Clearly, some are better informed (read) than others.

[peter2704]

lots of guys I know work the system,plumbers/painters/roofers/mobile hairdressers all crying poverty now,but they all boasted when the going was good.Not all self employed will do this but many will ,tis what it is.Not their fault they dont make the rules, its the system needs tightening.one bloke used to take his kid to footy and training and claim all the fuel/ milage as business

[P9CLY]

I'm "PAYE" so the Government can clearly see what I've earned.The "Self Employed" May or may not be 100% honest with their annual earnings and payment of tax!,I think we all know that's a fact,so I'm not saying anything that's not true!.So let's look at the example below.


For eg,The Government say they will give the self employed X £s per week,some may say it's not enough,but those saying that may also not have paid their full tax on ALL their annual earnings!,and I say,what you have fiddled add that to what you are now been offered and so that's what your actually recieving had you not declared all your earnings,because you have had it,and could still have some in your bank.You can't have the bread,butter and jam twice.

And yet we'd all probably do exactly the same,and why wouldn't we,we all want a good time whilst we are here.

[Griswold]

I'm "PAYE" so the Government can clearly see what I've earned.The "Self Employed" May or may not be 100% honest with their annual earnings and payment of tax!,I think we all know that's a fact,so I'm not saying anything that's not true!.So let's look at the example below.


For eg,The Government say they will give the self employed X £s per week,some may say it's not enough,but those saying that may also not have paid their full tax on ALL their annual earnings!,and I say,what you have fiddled add that to what you are now been offered and so that's what your actually recieving had you not declared all your earnings,because you have had it,and could still have some in your bank.You can't have the bread,butter and jam twice.

And yet we'd all probably do exactly the same,and why wouldn't we,we all want a good time whilst we are here.

Interesting. I've used a number of self employed tradesmen over the years, Quite a number insisted on cash, (some providing receipts, some not), whilst others were insistent on bank transfer direct to their business account. I know which will be feeling the more comfortable right now.

[lenlec]

Think the one man band sole director ltd companies (me included ) who just get the dividend/profits. Instead of a salary thru paye are gonna lose out here.

[P9CLY]

As my Wife and I say to our Daughter...

Save some money just in case of ?...........She never does!.But then Like us we'd be penalised and receive nothing until our funds are below the 16k threshold!,so you could then argue why save at all!.

Damned if you do,damned if you don't!.

[Maysie]

Think the one man band sole director ltd companies (me included ) who just get the dividend/profits. Instead of a salary thru paye are gonna lose out here.

Andy, you are spot on as we have fallen through the crack.

What I have been told by my accountant this morning:

If you paid yourself a salary of any kind, as a sole director of a Ltd Co you 'may' be able to furlough yourself and receive 80% of your salary (based on your Feb earnings) up to a maximum of £2500, but that situation is very unclear for sole directors as they have fiduciary duties under Companies House regs, so if you furlough yourself the company becomes essentially 'director-less' and a 'director-less' company officially needs to be wound up if it has no director in charge (so I have been told this morning by my accountant).
It is a bit of a mess as far as sole director limited companies is concerned and there appears to be no clear-cut guidance, but plenty of speculation. In short, no one really knows until we can make an application for the support.

If you have no salary element to your income, then the furlough option is not available to you at all.

Either way, the web portal for support (if any is available) is unlikely to be available for applications until the end of April and it will be at least the end of May before any financial assistance will be forthcoming, so best to batten down the hatches and assume you are on your own.

Don't forget, 'we are all in this together' though. Yeah, right.

[oldoakknives]

To minimise losing everything you ever saved for your whole life through redundancy that was no fault of your own is more the way I look at it.

Self preservation is why people do it, not to maximise benefits.

If you want to maximise benefits people get loads of children and pretend to have mental health problems.

Us poor council house folk learnt long ago to keep a suit case full of cash under the bed rather than keep stocks, shares, ISA or savings accounts.

They are all identifiable assets that will be used as an excuse not to help you.

You seem to know all the best ways to obtain benefits.

[P9CLY]

You seem to know all the best ways to obtain benefits.

Add him to the millions more that also have the manual,and believe it or not other countries (ex) citizens have the same manual and are having a great time studying it intensively.

[Kingstepper]

Add him to the millions more that also have the manual,and believe it or not other countries (ex) citizens have the same manual and are having a great time studying it intensively.

Why not just say forin people?

[David_D]

Amazed that accountants don't know these basic details TBH.

There aren't any details, are there? Just fairly general announcements of intent. Danger is people start to read comments made as fact - potentially leading to disappointment (at best) down the line. Best bet is to read the guidance and see when links are provided to more detailed 'operational' information.

This:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...for-businesses

says last updated 26 March - yesterday!


This is the self-employed grant specific stuff:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-a-...support-scheme

[Kingstepper]

There aren't any details, are there? Just fairly general announcements of intent. Danger is people start to read comments made as fact - potentially leading to disappointment (at best) down the line. Best bet is to read the guidance and see when links are provided to more detailed 'operational' information.

This:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...for-businesses

says last updated 26 March - yesterday!


This is the self-employed grant specific stuff:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-a-...support-scheme

Well, even the details on the .gov site you mention. Cut-off date to be on PAYE for furloughing for example.

Maybe they only know the ‘magic’ stuff...

[David_D]

Well, even the details on the .gov site you mention. Cut-off date to be on PAYE for furloughing for example.

Maybe they only know the ‘magic’ stuff...

Tax law for business (including the self-employed) has take 100+ years to reach its current state and is so riddled with complexity most people wouldn't believe. The chances of producing a fully formed, coherent, carefully thought through, detailed set of financial rescue plans for employers, employees and self-employed, in 2-3 weeks, was zero. It's completely sh!te to be on the wrong side of the rules but this is a massive sticking plaster applied as an emergency measure to prevent the economy collapsing and so they've done what they could in massive haste. It's possible that things may be finessed as representations are made by professional, industry and trade bodies.

[mangoosian]

https://www.icaew.com/insights/viewp...lough-guidance

Snippet:

"Owner/managed companies

2. Many owner managed company director/shareholders pay small salaries and the balance of income as dividends. The scheme does not extend to dividends. Only the salary is relevant to the scheme. Such companies must have been paying a salary through a payroll to be eligible for a grant."

Re: the point above regarding a sole director being able to furlough. It may be due to the distinction between being an officer of the company and an employee. I e. You are furloughed as an employee, but not as an officer, hence the business can still operate. IANAA.

[Kingstepper]

Tax law for business (including the self-employed) has take 100+ years to reach its current state and is so riddled with complexity most people wouldn't believe. The chances of producing a fully formed, coherent, carefully thought through, detailed set of financial rescue plans for employers, employees and self-employed, in 2-3 weeks, was zero. It's completely sh!te to be on the wrong side of the rules but this is a massive sticking plaster applied as an emergency measure to prevent the economy collapsing and so they've done what they could in massive haste. It's possible that things may be finessed as representations are made by professional, industry and trade bodies.

Don’t disagree with that, not sure why you’re replying to my posts with this even.
My point is that relatively high earning people, running their own companies (so presumably reasonably intelligent, accountants even) seem to be asking the most basic questions of the new schemes which can be answered with a 5 min internet search.

[Kingstepper]

https://www.icaew.com/insights/viewp...lough-guidance

Snippet:

"Owner/managed companies

2. Many owner managed company director/shareholders pay small salaries and the balance of income as dividends. The scheme does not extend to dividends. Only the salary is relevant to the scheme. Such companies must have been paying a salary through a payroll to be eligible for a grant."

Re: the point above regarding a sole director being able to furlough. It may be due to the distinction between being an officer of the company and an employee. I e. You are furloughed as an employee, but not as an officer, hence the business can still operate. IANAA.

Some advice on that here - https://www.rossmartin.co.uk/covid-1...s-shareholders

[P9CLY]

Why not just say forin people?

From other Countries would make them that........wouldn't it!,being "Forin" isn't a bad word is it?.

Were "Forin" if we go to other Countries,is it reciprocated?.

Id rather like to live in La Laguna in Tenerife,get a nice flat and benefits,might look into it......might not happen.

maybe,won't happen.......because as you said....I'm Forin and not paid into their system,seems fair thinking about it tbh.

Seemed to hit a nerve!...........Are you Forin?.

[Kingstepper]

From other Countries would make them that........wouldn't it!,being "Forin" isn't a bad word is it?.

Were "Forin" if we go to other Countries,is it reciprocated?.

Id rather like to live in La Laguna in Tenerife,get a nice flat and benefits,might look into it......might not happen.

maybe,won't happen.......because as you said....I'm Forin and not paid into their system,seems fair thinking about it tbh.

Seemed to hit a nerve!...........Are you Forin?.

Say foreigners then, why beat about the bush it’s just thinly veiled racism.

I’m not foreign BTW, does that make a difference?

[Carnut]

Some advice on that here - https://www.rossmartin.co.uk/covid-1...s-shareholders

I think it would probably be very wise to tread carefully with the job retention scheme. Whilst the government/HMRC will firstly look at big scale fraud after this is over, they will then look in every nook and cranny to get all this free cash back. Odd that they have been so generous (some would say far too generous) to the employed and self-employed, both are free to take reasonably large handouts and also do some form of paid work. Before anyone jumps in, our own staff that are now furloughed, they could get work elsewhere at the same time. As far as I am aware, the self-employed could well be earning a fortune to today in some sectors, yet still get the grants that have just been announced.

Those of us who run legitimate companies, collect huge amounts of VAT for the country, pay all our taxes and then at the end of year after taking all the financial risks, we decide what dividends we can afford to pay ourselves, get next to zero help. We will no doubt be the used as the easy target to claw it all back afterwards. Anyone like to guess what the new VAT, or corporation tax % will be very shorty?

On another note. should a lot of the cabinet now be sitting at home self isolating, and doing so on SSP. If the answer is no, because they are more than capable of doing their job whilst having Covid19..... why are the rest of us worrying about catching it. I'm confused, maybe that's me just going stir crazy

[P9CLY]

Say foreigners then, why beat about the bush it’s just thinly veiled racism.

I’m not foreign BTW, does that make a difference?

Makes absolutely no difference what nationality you are to me,and Shouldn't to anyone else I would expect.Try your very best to not throw the racism card out at every opportunity!,where it isn't relevant,or needed.

[Passenger]

From other Countries would make them that........wouldn't it!,being "Forin" isn't a bad word is it?.

Were "Forin" if we go to other Countries,is it reciprocated?.

Id rather like to live in La Laguna in Tenerife,get a nice flat and benefits,might look into it......might not happen.

maybe,won't happen.......because as you said....I'm Forin and not paid into their system,seems fair thinking about it tbh.

Seemed to hit a nerve!...........Are you Forin?.

You realise these systems are all of them glorified ponzi schemes and that what is given by the authorities today can because of events way outside anyones control be taken from you tomorrow. Far better to engineer the situation you want for yourself and find a way to become finanancially independent, ideally at a relatively young age and then pay yourself your own benefits...Don't obsess about forins it's just a distraction. We are all forriners in the eyes of someone else.

Good luck.

[Kingstepper]

Makes absolutely no difference what nationality you are to me,and Shouldn't to anyone else I would expect.Try your very best to not throw the racism card out at every opportunity!,where it isn't relevant,or needed.

I do but needed here.

[P9CLY]

I do but needed here.

You didn't really,did you!,because it wasn't needed here,it's all in your mind.

[Kingstepper]

You didn't really,did you!,because it wasn't needed here,it's all in your mind.

Yes, in my mind, that’s where I think.

[aa388]

I think it would probably be very wise to tread carefully with the job retention scheme. Whilst the government/HMRC will firstly look at big scale fraud after this is over, they will then look in every nook and cranny to get all this free cash back. Odd that they have been so generous (some would say far too generous) to the employed and self-employed, both are free to take reasonably large handouts and also do some form of paid work. Before anyone jumps in, our own staff that are now furloughed, they could get work elsewhere at the same time.

They could get jobs but but will they, there’s lots in the same boat trying to top up there losses.

On a personal view I’m dumbfounded at my management and parent company’s view, We’re being furloughed today for min of 3 weeks, Our contract has parked up 15 artic units and have sent the drivers home on 80% when our other contract is crying out for artic units and drivers as they are run off there feet and are having to hire in at exorbitant rates. Utter bloody madness.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[pugster]

i'll just drop this in here (feel free to link it in other threads as needed)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/featu...20200221193758

[P9CLY]

Yes, in my mind, that’s where I think.

Yes "in Your mind",and for that reason not always the correct assumption,but I'll allow that as some do judge first,and maybe think later......as was the case here!.

If we could get out,I think taking up ping pong would suit you and I.

Ping.......

[scooby]

I have furloughed my staff of 30 as we are a retail company
and i can tell you its heartbreaking because you know they will suffer
But on a positive note i have had so many emails from staff thanking me for fighting on paying them without much in the way of income
Another flaw in the scheme is sales roles
I have a few sales guys and they are only entitled to 80% of there basic salary
Surely the whole scheme should have been run on 80% of take home pay up to £2500 per month based on last years tax return


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Templogin]

The only time a Government (of all stripes) puts its arm around you, is when they are slipping their hand into your pocket.

[Maysie]

Andy, you are spot on as we have fallen through the crack.

What I have been told by my accountant this morning:

If you paid yourself a salary of any kind, as a sole director of a Ltd Co you 'may' be able to furlough yourself and receive 80% of your salary (based on your Feb earnings) up to a maximum of £2500, but that situation is very unclear for sole directors as they have fiduciary duties under Companies House regs, so if you furlough yourself the company becomes essentially 'director-less' and a 'director-less' company officially needs to be wound up if it has no director in charge (so I have been told this morning by my accountant).
It is a bit of a mess as far as sole director limited companies is concerned and there appears to be no clear-cut guidance, but plenty of speculation. In short, no one really knows until we can make an application for the support.

If you have no salary element to your income, then the furlough option is not available to you at all.

Either way, the web portal for support (if any is available) is unlikely to be available for applications until the end of April and it will be at least the end of May before any financial assistance will be forthcoming, so best to batten down the hatches and assume you are on your own.

Don't forget, 'we are all in this together' though. Yeah, right.

UPDATE
The situation outlined in my post above has now been clarified for anyone who is interested:
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...femployedvideo