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Thread: Self employed people virus payments

  1. #101

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    Then they claim back tax on literally everything they can. Coffees in the morning, breakfast, dinner, lunch everything seems a taxable expense.
    I would agree that it can look like this to an outsider. I run a Ltd with employees and have been worried about keeping them in work and paying their salaries. There is also an important difference - if I buy lunch for myself when I am traveling to viisit a client then that is a legitimate, tax deductible business expense as it is a cost incurred for me to do my job - just like HMRC and many companies allow their employees to incur costs when away from the office.

    Entertainment of clients - so a nice lunch is not a legitimate business expense so VAT is not recoverable, and cannot be used to offset company profits either.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Oh, hang on... no sick pay. No holiday pay. No pension contribution. No job protection.

    For the past three years I've averaged 3 months without work for every 6 months on a project.

    As stated, this thread is full of uneducated, ill-informed bullshit.

  4. #104
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    Completely agree that there are so many myths and BS being spouted here that resemble nothing like the facts of running a Ltd company & the tax affairs.

    £10k tax on £100k income is just not possible, at all.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Oh, hang on... no sick pay. No holiday pay. No pension contribution. No job protection.

    For the past three years I've averaged 3 months without work for every 6 months on a project.

    As stated, this thread is full of uneducated, ill-informed bullshit.
    Are you saying the linked article is bullshit? They appear to make a good case for becoming a contractor.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Oh, hang on... no sick pay. No holiday pay. No pension contribution. No job protection.

    For the past three years I've averaged 3 months without work for every 6 months on a project.

    As stated, this thread is full of uneducated, ill-informed bullshit.
    No , none of that is true .
    We all live in mansions behind golden gates , earning tax free money because every accountant in the UK plays the system .
    Although I completely agree with the last line

  7. #107
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Are you saying the linked article is bullshit? They appear to make a good case for becoming a contractor.
    Read my post again.

  8. #108
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    I've rather liked the freedom of being self employed - no security, no holiday pay, yeah, but no boss, no schedule that I haven't agreed to. Between the paid work I did more interesting unpaid work.

    When the world ground to a halt, I didn't think that anyone owed me anything, I just thought this was a price for freedom. Oops. Now I see I'll be getting something, I'll be grateful for it, and promise to spend it on taxable goods

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Read my post again.
    I agree with your last point.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    I've rather liked the freedom of being self employed - no security, no holiday pay, yeah, but no boss, no schedule that I haven't agreed to. Between the paid work I did more interesting unpaid work.

    When the world ground to a halt, I didn't think that anyone owed me anything, I just thought this was a price for freedom. Oops. Now I see I'll be getting something, I'll be grateful for it, and promise to spend it on taxable goods
    Glad you're covered, as I am for everyone who'll get some support. Hopefully the delay until June won't be problematic.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Thatís downside to Universal Credit, anyone who is prudent and has certain savings will not get it.
    Us poor council house folk learnt long ago to keep a suit case full of cash under the bed rather than keep stocks, shares, ISA or savings accounts.

    They are all identifiable assets that will be used as an excuse not to help you.

  12. #112
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    That article seems about right, fair point re the sick leave, hols, but the flip side is 'enhanced' earning capacity...there is always a trade off, that's life it's never fair.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Oh, hang on... no sick pay. No holiday pay. No pension contribution. No job protection.

    For the past three years I've averaged 3 months without work for every 6 months on a project.

    As stated, this thread is full of uneducated, ill-informed bullshit.
    This is true, but there canít be many self employed people who donít know this from the outset.

    Thatís why self employed day rates are higher than PAYE, and why employers are happy to use them for appropriate work as they avoid all the on costs.

    This is all politics of envy stuff really isnít it, Iíve done both and for me I prefer the stability and certainty of PAYE, but clearly some out there think self employment is a big tax avoidance scheme.

    One of my brothers has been Ďforcedí into self employment by what was his employer (plumbing and heating), heís a zero hours contract worker in all but name. He might benefit from the announcement yesterday.

    Iíve got two other brothers who run Ltd companies with themselves and a spouse as employees, they tell me it wonít help them much, and their work has already dried up.

    When I tried contracting for a couple of years, I found I was spending 2 or 3 days a week chasing contracts and/or payment. Itís not for the faint hearted, and my hats off to anybody who succeeds in it.

    I understand of course that not all self employed people are contractors working in the public sector, Iím just saying what my experience has been.

    Best of luck to everybody claiming/keeping going during all this, whatever they do.
    Last edited by Tooks; 27th March 2020 at 11:24.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    This is true, but there canít be many self employed people who donít know this from the outset.

    Thatís why self employed day rates are higher than PAYE, and why employers are happy to use them for appropriate work as they avoid all the on costs.

    This is all politics of envy stuff really isnít it, Iíve done both and for me I prefer the stability and certainty of PAYE, but clearly some out there think self employment is a big tax avoidance scheme.

    One of my brothers has been Ďforcedí into self employment by his what was his employer (plumbing and heating), heís a zero hours contract worker in all but name. He might benefit from the announcement yesterday.

    Iíve got two other brothers who run Ltd companies with themselves and a spouse as employees, they tell me it wonít help them much, and their work has already dried up.

    When I tried contracting for a couple of years, I found I was spending 2 or 3 days a week chasing contracts and/or payment. Itís not for the faint hearted, and my hats off to anybody who succeeds in it.

    Best of luck to everybody claiming/keeping going during all this.
    Thanks for the measured post. Iíve been a one man band for five years. Itís hard, stressful and a constant battle to retain clients (and find new ones). I pay VAST AMOUNTS of tax, and am happy to given the opportunities this country has provided me with over the years. Coming on here this morning and seeing a few people (with barely the faintest idea what they were talking about) sniping at us wasnít welcome especially at such an uncertain time.

    My business will suffer, and I will not be eligible for any support much like Tony and others who have posted. That means less tax next year. Maybe have a think about that in the context of there being millions of us.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Glad you're covered, as I am for everyone who'll get some support. Hopefully the delay until June won't be problematic.
    I recently relocated and took the uncharacteristically responsible step of putting some money away for emergencies* so, unlike all my friends working in the same area as me, I've no worries waiting until June.

    But when I thought I would be getting nothing, I didn't begrudge the full timers their big helping hand: they spend all day, every day, every week, every year, doing exactly what they're told. They're like domesticated dogs, and need looking after.

    *and also squandered some on a very nice watch

  16. #116
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    This is true, but there canít be many self employed people who donít know this from the outset.

    Thatís why self employed day rates are higher than PAYE, and why employers are happy to use them for appropriate work as they avoid all the on costs.

    This is all politics of envy stuff really isnít it, Iíve done both and for me I prefer the stability and certainty of PAYE, but clearly some out there think self employment is a big tax avoidance scheme.

    One of my brothers has been Ďforcedí into self employment by what was his employer (plumbing and heating), heís a zero hours contract worker in all but name. He might benefit from the announcement yesterday.

    Iíve got two other brothers who run Ltd companies with themselves and a spouse as employees, they tell me it wonít help them much, and their work has already dried up.

    When I tried contracting for a couple of years, I found I was spending 2 or 3 days a week chasing contracts and/or payment. Itís not for the faint hearted, and my hats off to anybody who succeeds in it.

    I understand of course that not all self employed people are contractors working in the public sector, Iím just saying what my experience has been.

    Best of luck to everybody claiming/keeping going during all this, whatever they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    Thanks for the measured post. Iíve been a one man band for five years. Itís hard, stressful and a constant battle to retain clients (and find new ones). I pay VAST AMOUNTS of tax, and am happy to given the opportunities this country has provided me with over the years. Coming on here this morning and seeing a few people (with barely the faintest idea what they were talking about) sniping at us wasnít welcome especially at such an uncertain time.

    My business will suffer, and I will not be eligible for any support much like Tony and others who have posted. That means less tax next year. Maybe have a think about that in the context of there being millions of us.
    Thanks, both, for sensible posts. Worrying times indeed.

  17. #117
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    I think you are taking this very personal. Not everyone is in the same situation as yourself. I work for a very large business that has had the same people working as contractors full time for 5 years.

    We are sharing our views. This is not a dig at you.

  18. #118
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    I've been pretty shocked at the response and the general opinion regarding the self employed.

    I hope this doesn't happen but maybe the opinion will change if the smaller independent companies go out of business that was repairing your car at half the cost per hour of Audi etc. When the plumber that installs your new boiler at half the cost of British gas!

    Maybe then the small perks they might receive maybe considered worthwhile.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Us poor council house folk learnt long ago to keep a suit case full of cash under the bed rather than keep stocks, shares, ISA or savings accounts.

    They are all identifiable assets that will be used as an excuse not to help you.
    Whereas the richer folk will put it into Rolex or PP.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    I see the Govt is suggesting that once this is over, they will look at raising the taxes the self-employed pay.
    I read the Govt would like to see self employed NI contributions on an even footing with employed. I don't think any self employed would complain about that so long as benefits received are also on an even footing, for example being eligible for sick pay and holiday pay.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    I read the Govt would like to see self employed NI contributions on an even footing with employed. I don't think any self employed would complain about that so long as benefits received are also on an even footing, for example being eligible for sick pay and holiday pay.
    Fair point well made.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    I read the Govt would like to see self employed NI contributions on an even footing with employed. I don't think any self employed would complain about that so long as benefits received are also on an even footing, for example being eligible for sick pay and holiday pay.
    I once did some work in France, and the deductions for self employed sick pay and holiday pay were huge, and felt like the most foreign thing about the whole project. Having to apply to a government body for when I want to consider myself on holiday? Yuk.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    I read the Govt would like to see self employed NI contributions on an even footing with employed. I don't think any self employed would complain about that so long as benefits received are also on an even footing, for example being eligible for sick pay and holiday pay.
    I don't think NI contributions go towards sick and holiday pay. The business covers these.

    The NI mainly goes towards the state pension which everyone who keeps up with national insurance contributions gets

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I think you are taking this very personal. Not everyone is in the same situation as yourself. I work for a very large business that has had the same people working as contractors full time for 5 years.

    We are sharing our views. This is not a dig at you.
    Wether we take it personally or not could be down to the broad brush youíve painted us all with .

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    I donít really understand what you mean here but, just to be clear, dividends are not tax free expenses. We pay corporation tax on them AND then personal tax on them.

    Your PAYE vs ltd company director tax comparisons are incorrect and unfair.
    I think the probable problem is that most donít understand the ins and outs of it.

    As youíll know Itís your company that has the liability for the corporation tax on profit and you as an employee or director of that company have the personal tax on PAYE and dividends you take.

    So taking a Divi saves the company money by not paying the employers Ni liabilities. And someone taking them about 12.5% tax on up to the basic tax limit.

    Well thatís how my accountant sold it to me. The expenses thing is another kettle of fish, I couldnít even claim for mileage as it was in the eyes of HMRC commuting.



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  26. #126
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    I just spoke to my friend who is an accountant to ask him how's he's getting on.

    He said things are awful and literally out of hundreds of people he's spoken to over last week or so only one person has said i dont want to claim, everyone else trying to fiddle something.

    People asking to back date wages, up their wages, asking if they can claim the 10k grant because they rent a storage container ... the list is endless.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I think you are taking this very personal. Not everyone is in the same situation as yourself. I work for a very large business that has had the same people working as contractors full time for 5 years.

    We are sharing our views. This is not a dig at you.
    Unfortunately your large business is a big part of the problem. Full time ďcontractorsĒ should be full time employees. I work for six different organisations currently, from a Japanese conglomerate to a one-man trade group in the states. I am a true Ďcontractorí and this is literally the only way I can do business. I cannot operate as a sole trader or in any other way; organisations increasingly insist on operating as a limited company to protect themselves (ironically from tax fraud, which is what a lot of your colleagues appear to be doing). Hopefully IR35 will prevent this and stop companies like yours taking the piss.

    Iím not taking this personally; Iím used to it. What I object to is all of your inaccuracies, guesswork and generalities going unchallenged. If youíre going to talk corporation tax, for example, at least understand the basics.

    Anyway, whatever weíre all in the sh*t currently one way or another.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I don't think NI contributions go towards sick and holiday pay. The business covers these.

    The NI mainly goes towards the state pension which everyone who keeps up with national insurance contributions gets
    You're correct about the holiday pay but NI contributions do go towards statutory sick pay and also benefits like maternity and paternity leave.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I just spoke to my friend who is an accountant to ask him how's he's getting on.

    He said things are awful and literally out of hundreds of people he's spoken to over last week or so only one person has said i dont want to claim, everyone else trying to fiddle something.

    People asking to back date wages, up their wages, asking if they can claim the 10k grant because they rent a storage container ... the list is endless.
    I wonder if heíll be ďworking his magicĒ for them 🤣

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Us poor council house folk learnt long ago to keep a suit case full of cash under the bed rather than keep stocks, shares, ISA or savings accounts.

    They are all identifiable assets that will be used as an excuse not to help you.
    So it's a good idea to keep undeclared assets, to maximise any benefits etc you might otherwise not be entitled to?

    How do you feel about large corporations avoiding paying tax?
    Cuidich 'n Righ

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I don't think NI contributions go towards sick and holiday pay. The business covers these.

    The NI mainly goes towards the state pension which everyone who keeps up with national insurance contributions gets
    And yet more inaccuracies. This is no better than trolling, and those of us genuinely concerned for our families futures can do without it.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I just spoke to my friend who is an accountant to ask him how's he's getting on.

    He said things are awful and literally out of hundreds of people he's spoken to over last week or so only one person has said i dont want to claim, everyone else trying to fiddle something.

    People asking to back date wages, up their wages, asking if they can claim the 10k grant because they rent a storage container ... the list is endless.
    Unfortunately I have been told a similar story.
    Cuidich 'n Righ

  33. #133
    The defence for contractors (really talking IT here) earning more money and paying less tax was because they didn't have certainty of tenure and it made sense to reward that risk.

    Now the risk has arrived it's all wah wah wah.

    IR35 wasn't out to get you and neither is coronavirus. But if you haven't paid the same level of tax you can't expect the reward.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Oh, hang on... no sick pay. No holiday pay. No pension contribution. No job protection.

    For the past three years I've averaged 3 months without work for every 6 months on a project.

    As stated, this thread is full of uneducated, ill-informed bullshit.
    If it really is that bad perhaps you would be better off in full time employment? So I assume there must be positive reasons you do it.
    Cuidich 'n Righ

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    If it really is that bad perhaps you would be better off in full time employment? So I assume there must be positive reasons you do it.
    I started up because I was faced with redundancy 10 years ago. Yes, it was great at first but the last couple of years have had me wondering what the point is. I make no more (net) than my paye colleagues, and they get pension, holidays, sick pay, work less hours and have less responsibility. I know what will happen when this is over; I'll be joining my paye colleagues and shutting my company down as soon as I can.

  36. #136
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    If it really is that bad perhaps you would be better off in full time employment? So I assume there must be positive reasons you do it.
    Valid question and one that most of us ask ourselves from time to time. It’s not necessarily something that’s within our gift to change but that’s a whole other story and not for this thread.

    I'm going for a run to relieve the stress!

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegoat View Post
    Wether we take it personally or not could be down to the broad brush youíve painted us all with .
    Absolutely not. I clearly stated my friends. People have taken it personally.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    And yet more inaccuracies. This is no better than trolling, and those of us genuinely concerned for our families futures can do without it.
    What bit is wrong.

    Again. I said I think so I was open to be corrected. I genuinely thought that NI mainly went towards state pension and stat sick pay and stat maternity pay which I thought all contributors got.

    Apologies if I'm wrong and self employed don't get this. If that is the case it is outrageous.

  39. #139
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    Unfortunately, as is often the case, the perception of an entire group can be heavily influenced by a few highlighted cases of extreme behaviour. It doesn't help when even some members here vociferously advocate aggressive 'tax structuring' - which many equate to avoidance.

    I've always considered being an employee vs contracting as a swings and roundabouts scenario with pros and cons to both.
    Don't Panic

  40. #140
    Iím not generally one to comment too much but Iíve found this an interesting thread with some interesting views...

    I am now a director of my own limited company, along with a business partner. We were previously regular employees for a well known company for approximately 30 years. One of the biggest drivers for setting up was to give our sons a chance of obtaining a trade. We are a gas / heating company, there was practically zero chance of them gaining a meaningful apprenticeship anywhere else, so we went for it. A bit of a shock for us old boys, having been off Ďthe toolsí for a good number of years!

    Iím confident that we will be ok if this doesnít drag on for too long as we do have savings / contingencies, but please be under no illusions, we contribute plenty in various guises.

    Our workload has now massively decreased and is an obvious concern. We will furlough my son and continue to work get as much completed as we can to try and help see us through this...

    The downsides of trying to maintain an income during these unprecedented times and keep working (as one particularly helpful comment suggested) are mainly risking my health, by going into other peoples homes, which I canít be sure if there is any risk of infection to myself, believe me when I say that some out there donít practice the same basic hygiene standards that you might, which leads to a risk of bringing that back in to my home, to my (asthmatic) wife and two grown up children, which in turn, could be a risk to their health.

    We are a new business, approximately 18 months and I love the freedom and responsibility and Iím not knocking the interventions put in place by the government, I may well be in the minority but I think that they have done ok under the circumstances. Will we get much in the way of support, given our circumstances, probably not?

    We and I suspect, the vast majority, absolutely play with a straight bat and do the very best we can to support ourselves and the greater population, my wife is not on the payroll and we are not Ďat ití with magic working accountants.

    Less deserving of support than others and fair game for uninformed and ill judged snipes... maybe?

    Stay safe everyone, whatever your employment status.

  41. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by guinea View Post
    The defence for contractors (really talking IT here) earning more money and paying less tax was because they didn't have certainty of tenure and it made sense to reward that risk.

    Now the risk has arrived it's all wah wah wah.

    IR35 wasn't out to get you and neither is coronavirus. But if you haven't paid the same level of tax you can't expect the reward.
    But I pay more tax than the permanent employees I work with !

  42. #142
    BTW, do accountants pay tax?

  43. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Us poor council house folk learnt long ago to keep a suit case full of cash under the bed rather than keep stocks, shares, ISA or savings accounts.

    They are all identifiable assets that will be used as an excuse not to help you.
    Bit naughty that Especially if your on the pan crack
    Whilst the rest of us pay our way
    Not saying you are but this is how it comes across

  44. #144
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    What is pan crack?

  45. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by seadog1408 View Post
    What is pan crack?
    Itís a local saying for benefits

  46. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Oh, hang on... no sick pay. No holiday pay. No pension contribution. No job protection.

    For the past three years I've averaged 3 months without work for every 6 months on a project.

    As stated, this thread is full of uneducated, ill-informed bullshit.

    Well said , being self employed certainly isn't the bed of roses that some think it is.
    I been employed & now currently self employed Ö Employed is a walk in the park.

  47. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    If it really is that bad perhaps you would be better off in full time employment? So I assume there must be positive reasons you do it.

    Sometimes there's not a magic full time employment button to press.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    So it's a good idea to keep undeclared assets, to maximise any benefits etc you might otherwise not be entitled to?

    How do you feel about large corporations avoiding paying tax?
    To minimise losing everything you ever saved for your whole life through redundancy that was no fault of your own is more the way I look at it.

    Self preservation is why people do it, not to maximise benefits.

    If you want to maximise benefits people get loads of children and pretend to have mental health problems.

  49. #149
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    One of my friends clients has told him he won't be claiming anything and instead he has found a job stacking shelves in Tesco.

  50. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    To minimise losing everything you ever saved for your whole life through redundancy that was no fault of your own is more the way I look at it.

    Self preservation is why people do it, not to maximise benefits.

    If you want to maximise benefits people get loads of children and pretend to have mental health problems.
    No sorry itís to maximise benefits only

    And before you come back to me on this Hereís your own words from your original post ...
    They are all identifiable assets that will be used as an excuse not to help you.

    Hereís hoping you get caught
    Last edited by speedypro1111; 27th March 2020 at 13:46.

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