ATOL guarantees worthless?

[tixntox]

There are reports in the press that package holiday companies are trying to weasel out of paying back customers whose holiday packages can't go ahead! It seems that meetings are taking place with Grant Shapps to suspend the ATOL "guarantees"! So, they take your money, keep it in their bank accounts and won't give it back to you despite the ATOL guarantees. They will however offer to keep your money until things change!!!!

[IdiotAbroad]

Just to clarify, ATOL is what covers refunds/ repatriation in the case of a flight inclusive package tour operator going bust before or during your holiday.

What is happening now is that tour operators are saying that the current rules of having to refund all clients in full within 14 days of their request in the event of trip cancellation, is simply impossible and was never designed with an industry wide shutdown in mind.

The refund credit note is a compromise designed to push customers towards rescheduling rather than cancelling, whilst also giving the operator leeway to avoid paying out full refunds in the short term.

Operators don’t, on the whole, ringfence client payments to use them when you travel.

Please try to see it from their side as well. It’s a tough situation for everyone.




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[tixntox]

They have your money. They don't supply the goods. That is theft and misappropriation of funds. That is why we are told to use ATOL companies. Peace of mind! Not!

[Beanie]

If the customer is obliged to accept the kind offer of keeping their money for a rescheduled holiday sometime in the future, and before that holiday the travel company goes belly up, would the ATOL "promise" kick in and a full refund be given?
If the purpose of suspending the current refund system is to give the travel companies some breathing room, surely the customer needs the ATOL back-stop to be delayed rather than abolished?
I understand that its really tough for travel companies at the moment, but the consumer still needs protection.

[deepreddave]

Given the circumstances I'd have no problem with a suspension of the refund (I do have a holiday booked and deposit paid). Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures otherwise we all suffer in the long run whether by recession, inflation, pension values etc.

[IdiotAbroad]

If the customer is obliged to accept the kind offer of keeping their money for a rescheduled holiday sometime in the future, and before that holiday the travel company goes belly up, would the ATOL "promise" kick in and a full refund be given?

Yes, exactly that.



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[IdiotAbroad]

They have your money. They don't supply the goods. That is theft and misappropriation of funds. That is why we are told to use ATOL companies. Peace of mind! Not!

ATOL is not what triggers your refund in this case.

ATOL is what pays your money back or for your repatriation if the operator goes bust.

Cancellation terms vary from operator to operator, but all in the UK must comply with the Package Travel Regulations, be that via ATOL, ABTA, Trust Accounts or whatever mechanism they choose.


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[PhilipK]

They have your money. They don't supply the goods. That is theft and misappropriation of funds.

I strongly suspect that the contract you signed with them includes a force majeure clause, which has been invoked. It's neither theft nor misappropriation, just a pragmatic and sensible approach to exceptional circumstances.

(I currently have 3 holidays booked and paid for. I'm quite happy to wait until the situation resolves itself and then to reschedule. The alternative - that they give everybody refunds, go out of business, and can no longer provide holidays that I may want to buy - is far worse, leaving aside the vastly more important impact on the lives of everybody who works for, or supplies, the holiday companies).

[catch21]

It's the last time I'll have four trips booked and paid for in advance. At least we had the thrill of getting to a Stansted check-in desk before we turned round and went home. It's a dreadful time all round. I think we have to hope everyone adopts a bit of give-and-take, swings and roundabouts sort of thing.

[IdiotAbroad]

(I currently have 3 holidays booked and paid for. I'm quite happy to wait until the situation resolves itself and then to reschedule. The alternative - that they give everybody refunds, go out of business, and can no longer provide holidays that I may want to buy - is far worse, leaving aside the vastly more important impact on the lives of everybody who works for, or supplies, the holiday companies).

Going out of business is a very real scenario for many travel companies at the moment. That would be multiplied if there was no flex on the current refund policy which is part of the Package Travel regs.

It’s reassuring to hear a level headed and balanced view from a consumer, having dealt with much of the opposite of late. Thank you.



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[Beanie]

[QUOTE=IdiotAbroad;5360079]Yes, exactly that.



Thanks for that, appreciated.
My next holiday isn't until January, and it would be dire for everyone if we haven't come through this by then. I was going to say "back to normal" but who knows what that will look like.

[tixntox]

Some more information.
https://www.abta.com/news/coronavirus-outbreak
Long and short seems to be that ATOL and ABTA are on the side of the companies rather than the consumers. No surprise there then! I really feel for those in difficult financial circumstances who really need a boost at this time. Tui for instance have laid off thousands of staff. Many folks have paid in full for holidays. Tui (and others similar) will not have spent the money but are holding on to it indefinitely, despite the UK governments advice re travel.

[hafle]

[COLOR=#000080] I strongly suspect that the contract you signed with them includes a force majeure clause, which has been invoked. It's neither theft nor misappropriation, just a pragmatic and sensible approach to exceptional circumstances.

Interesting (to some) reading https://www.macfarlanes.com/what-we-...t-of-covid-19/

[craig1912]

I too have three holidays booked and just had a refund for a flight from BA but awaiting refund from ABTA travel agent from a fourth holiday (skiing).
Would be happy to have voucher if I can use it. One of the problems is that between the travel company, insurer and credit card they all want you to claim off someone else.
Under the circumstances I am happy to wait it out and be patient as I can’t go anywhere else with the money. My main trip has cost £13k (3 people to Cuba and USA) so a significant sum. Not worried as long as I either can rebook later in year or vouchers for following year (although difficult as four different accommodation providers and three different airlines!).

[catch21]

My son booked and paid for the hotels and has been dealing with the refunds so it’s something of a secondhand story but probably worth re-telling.

He’d booked the hotels through the booking.com website as we didn’t use an agent to put this trip to Norway together. When he contacted the hotels they declined the refunds saying they were still open and we could have got there on a scheduled flight (although at that time 13th Mar, Norway had imposed a 14 day quarantine for arriving travellers).

However, booking.com stepped in and told the hotels they had to make the refunds.

I’ve never used them, but I’ll take a look in the future. Quite a substantial amount refunded.

[NickGaters]

Maybe I’m being a bit militant here, but I object to having retrospective T&C changes applied to my detriment. In these times of uncertainty I can’t be sure that my £6K voucher used next year will buy me the same holiday it would have done this year. I was already told that if I could move my holiday out to September they’d be very grateful - but the same holiday in September would cost me an extra £700. Assuming some travel companies will unfortunately go to the wall during this crisis I think holidays will get more expensive with less competition.

I also can’t be certain I’ll be able to get adequate insurance again for the same holiday later this year or next. It all feels like a very one sided conversation to me, especially as I’m effectively expected to give my travel company an interest free loan for a year or two when quite frankly I would rather get the money back and put it in my war chest should the worst come to the worst.

I do feel for the employees of travel companies - but I think they need to be clear and fair if they want me to work with them. There’s no real incentive. I’d need a cast iron guarantee that the holiday I get is exactly the same price and standard as the one I’d originally paid for. Preferably cheaper seeing as I’m giving them a big interest free loan.

[PhilipK]

Maybe I’m being a bit militant here, but I object to having retrospective T&C changes applied to my detriment. In these times of uncertainty I can’t be sure that my £6K voucher used next year will buy me the same holiday it would have done this year. I was already told that if I could move my holiday out to September they’d be very grateful - but the same holiday in September would cost me an extra £700. Assuming some travel companies will unfortunately go to the wall during this crisis I think holidays will get more expensive with less competition.

But that's the thing, isn't it? If everybody demands their money back, then they will go to the wall, and you'll find yourself at the back of the queue of debtors, hoping that you might be lucky enough to get 2p in the pound back on your £6k.

If, on the other hand, you just accept that £700 is your contribution to keeping the company afloat, then not only might you get the holiday you paid for, but the company might still be in business when you want to go on holiday next year. And if their competitors also remain in business, then there will be a competitive market keeping prices down in future years.

I'm also not sure why you think that (assuming there's an appropriate force majeure clause in your contract, which is highly likely) there are any retrospective T&C changes being made.

[NickGaters]

But that's the thing, isn't it? If everybody demands their money back, then they will go to the wall, and you'll find yourself at the back of the queue of debtors, hoping that you might be lucky enough to get 2p in the pound back on your £6k.

If, on the other hand, you just accept that £700 is your contribution to keeping the company afloat, then not only might you get the holiday you paid for, but the company might still be in business when you want to go on holiday next year. And if their competitors also remain in business, then there will be a competitive market keeping prices down in future years.

I'm also not sure why you think that (assuming there's an appropriate force majeure clause in your contract, which is highly likely) there are any retrospective T&C changes being made.

I see where you’re coming from and believe me I did for a long time plan to take your approach. However in my mind it should be give and take when you’re helping someone out - and it was just take. I did say to my travel agent that I was more than happy to move the holiday out a few months to help them out, their response was essentially ‘Great, by the way you can only stop in a much worse hotel and you need to pay us another £700’. So even best case scenario I wasn’t being offered the holiday I paid for.

I didn’t mention it before but that same travel agent also refused to allow us to pay the balance on credit or debit card, thus removing any s75 protection I might have had. Therefore all the risk and expense was on me.

My reference to retrospective changes referred to ABTA. At time of booking and for now Package Travel Regs = full refund on cancellation by the carrier. I felt my travel agent was attempting to bully me as they were extremely clear the regs are going to change to support them with vouchers only and I’d need to fight to get a full refund.

If the travel agent had framed it as ‘Look, we’re in the sh1t. If you can afford to lend us your money for a year interest free, we’ll guarantee the same holiday for the same price or less and we’ll ensure you get adequate insurance’ I’d have said yes. But no, they wanted me to take on all the risk and make more money out of me in the process. No thanks!

[tixntox]

Tui are now giving a 20% addition to their "refund credit notes". The only problem is that their prices for 2021 holidays are way over 20% more than the same time, in 2020. Stall, delay, anything but refund as ATOL/ABTA said customers should have!

[Kevin]

But that's the thing, isn't it? If everybody demands their money back, then they will go to the wall, and you'll find yourself at the back of the queue of debtors, hoping that you might be lucky enough to get 2p in the pound back on your £6k.

If, on the other hand, you just accept that £700 is your contribution to keeping the company afloat, then not only might you get the holiday you paid for, but the company might still be in business when you want to go on holiday next year. And if their competitors also remain in business, then there will be a competitive market keeping prices down in future years.

I'm also not sure why you think that (assuming there's an appropriate force majeure clause in your contract, which is highly likely) there are any retrospective T&C changes being made.

Why would you be in a debtors queue when this is all supposed to be underwritten by ABTA?

There are plenty of people who have lost their jobs because of the Covid crisis and cannot afford to give the travel company an interest free loan.
They need that £700 in their bank account.

I have written to a travel company who cancelled my holiday (should have flown out yesterday) and have not responded in any meaningful way to my emails and calls giving them 14 days to provide a full refund or I will start proceedings in the Small Claims Court.

[tixntox]

Can anyone advise if the time to claim a refund is when the travel is cancelled or when the travel was due to take place?

[tixntox]

Tui offered a 20% incentive to rebook. Refused and was given a full refund. The phone calls took in the region of 200 redials and approximately two hours of "holding"! Once connected, sorted in minutes. Refund to credit card in two days. The moral of the story, be persistent and patient!!! Credit card transfer to current account charge (same company - Halifax) £74.00. Have heard that this will be refunded??? Another punch up in the offing?? EDIT:- from Halifax website "If you have received a refund that has put your balance in credit, then don’t forget you can just use it by spending on your card as usual. Alternatively, if you have a Money Transfer option available you can transfer credit amounts over £100 using this option. You will not be charged interest on the value of any credit balance amount transferred and any fee charged on the credit balance will automatically be refunded within 28 days." Ahhhhh!

[Phil Lee]

I’ve been on hold with TUI for 40 minutes so far.

[Phil Lee]

I’ve been on hold with TUI for 40 minutes so far.

I was on hold for over 2 hours until the phone lines closed at 7pm. I am currently on hold again after failing to connect to the queue all morning.

[watch-nut]

like most of you, i carved out some cash for a holiday which was subsequently cancelled, i was offered a refund or credit note, have taken the gamble of a credit note, would only end up rebooking at a point in time, wanted to keep the faith with the travel firm, i think they need as much help as they can get to stay afloat, the risk is low, it was on a credit card so if the firm goes pop i can make a section 75 claim, for additional context it was a short break and not a £10K holiday so understand some of the anxiety in having laid out that kind of cash

[craig1912]

like most of you, i carved out some cash for a holiday which was subsequently cancelled, i was offered a refund or credit note, have taken the gamble of a credit note, would only end up rebooking at a point in time, wanted to keep the faith with the travel firm, i think they need as much help as they can get to stay afloat, the risk is low, it was on a credit card so if the firm goes pop i can make a section 75 claim, for additional context it was a short break and not a £10K holiday so understand some of the anxiety in having laid out that kind of cash

I’m happy with trying to support the industry where I can. Just transferred some Easy Jet flights to later in the year and booked some more at the same time for next April.
Have about £10k spent on a holiday for July (not package but different airlines and accommodations) and know already about £8k of that is readily refundable- Virgin Holidays, Expedia accommodation in Cuba, two hotels in the States and Virgin/Delta flights. All parties have already sent me a note saying I can have a refund if I or they don’t go ahead. Only doubt I have is some accommodation in Havana but would be happy to have a credit for next year.
Have to say both BA and Virgin have been good so far, together with Easy Jet

[watch-nut]

I’m happy with trying to support the industry where I can. Just transferred some Easy Jet flights to later in the year and booked some more at the same time for next April.
Have about £10k spent on a holiday for July (not package but different airlines and accommodations) and know already about £8k of that is readily refundable- Virgin Holidays, Expedia accommodation in Cuba, two hotels in the States and Virgin/Delta flights. All parties have already sent me a note saying I can have a refund if I or they don’t go ahead. Only doubt I have is some accommodation in Havana but would be happy to have a credit for next year.
Have to say both BA and Virgin have been good so far, together with Easy Jet

that's good news, its a tough call when those sort of sums are involved. I hope it all works out

[Phil Lee]

I finally managed to get through to TUI after waiting 1h 40 minutes. They issued the refund to my wife’s credit card in 5 minutes once I got through. She will receive it in 7-10 days.

[Linocut]

We have a holiday booked for Sep to Greece and we've paid £100 deposit with £600 due in April and balance late June. I haven't paid the second instalment, I don't see how we can possibly go and am prpepared to write the £100 off.

[Kingstepper]

like most of you, i carved out some cash for a holiday which was subsequently cancelled, i was offered a refund or credit note, have taken the gamble of a credit note, would only end up rebooking at a point in time, wanted to keep the faith with the travel firm, i think they need as much help as they can get to stay afloat, the risk is low, it was on a credit card so if the firm goes pop i can make a section 75 claim, for additional context it was a short break and not a £10K holiday so understand some of the anxiety in having laid out that kind of cash

If you accept a credit note, is that still covered by the original credit card transaction?

[wileeeeeey]

If you accept a credit note, is that still covered by the original credit card transaction?

Surely not?

[subzeer0]

i feel luky now...just received my full refund yetserday off jet2 after 6 weeks wait

[D3ckard]

Long story short, our Club Med ski trip was cancelled by the tour operator, (hence they have no leg to stand on regarding a refund), but, it was only when they were sent a formal demand that they agreed to a refund! This being said, we (there were six of us) are still waiting for the money. The whole process started on the 15th of March!!

Atol said we had an open and shut case, but, it has proven to be anything but simple! A lot of communication and wasted time to recover thus far.

It continues..

[craig1912]

Long story short, our Club Med ski trip was cancelled by the tour operator, (hence they have no leg to stand on regarding a refund), but, it was only when they were sent a formal demand that they agreed to a refund! This being said, we (there were six of us) are still waiting for the money. The whole process started on the 15th of March!!

Atol said we had an open and shut case, but, it has proven to be anything but simple! A lot of communication and wasted time to recover thus far.

It continues..

Same here with a Ski France.co.uk holiday. Blatant lying and we’ve ended up going through insurers and credit cards (although still waiting on both!)