Anyone know how ebay deal with this?
I recently sold a watch as a private seller, no returns accepted. The watch was sold as used, in good condition for its age but with wear commensurate with age etc. A buyer got in touch, and we discussed the condition, specifically that it was 25 years old with no known service history, but that it was functioning as intended, i.e keeping time at +3s a day and chronograph operating as normal.
Buyer then receives watch, leaves positive feedback a day or two after receipt, , provides wristshot, states he is over the moon. Evidence that it has been received and is in workimg order as described.
A week later I get an email saying the chronograph has stopped working. An hour later, another message saying that it is actually the entire watch that had stopped working.
He has now said that having taken it to an AD for isnspection ther is an "underlying problem with the balance wheel and some damage has caused to the mechanism over time", saying that it was a gradual deterioration and that the fault would have been evident prior to his ownership.
He is now asking for negotiation as to partial refund to cover servicing, else take it up with ebay 30 days money back guarantee (which would only apply for significantly not as described)
It was working fine when he received it, he was aware that it had no service history in its 25 years, I've made no fraudulent or negligent misrepresentation, I'm struggling to see how an AD inspecting it and deeming it needing a service to constitute considerably not as described. Surely this is a case of caveat emptor given he was made aware of the history, or lack thereof. He could have bought one from a dealer with a warranty, he chose to save the money and take the risk and buy one with no warranty or service history.
Anyone any experience with this kind of thing?
Last edited by hafle; 19th March 2020 at 20:11.
Originally Posted by hafle
Sorry that's not right:
Given it has stopped within a week, ebay will likely side with the buyer regardless of your 'no returns' policy.You're covered under eBay Money Back Guarantee when:
You don't receive an item
You receive an item that doesn't match its description in the listing
You receive an item that's broken or faulty.
Provided all communication was via EBay, show them and tell them he’s a chancer, get in first
Ebay will side with the buyer.
I sold something last year and had "NO RETURNS" on the advert.
Several weeks later the buyer said it was broken and I was forced to give a full refund.
My argument was " why didn't they say in the first 14 days " and "why is NO RETURNS a worthless option to select on the advert template"
Ebay totally ignored all that and gave me two fingers.
But it was not faulty when received, and given that SGA does not apply. As a private seller of used goods, the SGA does not apply, only that it is as described. Which it was. A running 25 year old watch with no service history. He was never given any reason to believe that I had any specialist knowledge as to watch movements etc.
His feedback and praise is confirmation that it was received as a running watch. Which is what was being sold, and which was what was bought. The only discussion on mechanical soundness was through the enquiry as to service history, to which he was told there was none, but that it was keeping excellent time, which it was.
Ah, but in my case the buyer has confirmed that it was working when he received it. Generally, anything that happens after that in a private sale is caveat emptor so long as the seller has not made any fraudulent or negligent misrepresentations. He was informed about a lack of a service history over 25 years, he then chose to agree to the risks that that presented. A fault could have arisen in a day, a week, a month, a year.
Last edited by hafle; 19th March 2020 at 20:38.
This must be the 100th posting of this nature and in most cases eBay will side with the seller. Watch conks out one week after purchase, eBay will definitely side with the seller.
The simple truth is that eBay wants commercial sellers who pack professionally and offer 12 month warranties etc. The are discouraging small sellers and it's time to get the message.
sadly this ^^^^^^^
A recent video was posted concerning an eBay business seller, who ended up £300 out of pocket when his buyer damaged the item and returned it for a refund. The content really is eye watering if you can sit through the full video and has certainly made me reconsider using eBay to sell.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g2dAa-afItU
I’d stick to Your guns.Hes left feedback saying He is happy with the purchase.
Make sure eBay are aware of that.As another Guy has said sounds like a chancer after a bit of money back after the deal.
On eBay there’s no such thing as caveat emptor, eBay for a lot of buyers is try before you buy just like shops and they all know they can use any excuse to get a complete refund
did you see the outcome , a letter of apology from the CEO of e bay, the power of social media and bad publicity! Just a shame its not a option for all of us , and also because they are a major customer/seller helped as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwqkAM1NE&app=desktop
Did you have pics of the movement in the listing ? How do you know that hes not messed around inside the watch ? or removed good parts for his own project watch.
If you have good close up pics of the case and movement , get him to return it and investigate .
It’s not a worthless option. It prevents returns if buyer changes mind.
Ebay will in most cases find in favour of the buyer for whatever reason
The Buyer has 180 days to return any item for whatever reason
Putting No Returns or buyer pays return postage is worthless and you will always have to pay the return postage for whatever reason
I have been selling on Ebay since its concept and it is one of the joys of this selling medium...
Unfortunately Ebay has become a Scammers paradise for both sellers and buyers
Sellers beware !!!!!
I'm aware that ebay tends to side with buyers.
However, as stated, the seller has already, though feedback and messages, stated that they're happy that they've received that which they were expecting to receive. As such, they can't blame any future failure on it being not what they expected. i.e they expected to receive a 25 year old watch with no service history. nothing more, nothing less. At the time of receipt, they got what they bought, a working watch.
Based on the replies, it sounds like ebay will side with the seller, but having sought a legal opinion, the demonstrable facts suggest the argument is very much in my favour should i have to take it to county court. Would hardly be the first time that ebay are forced to settle as a result of "faults" withint their investigation.
He has now said that having taken it to an AD for inspection there is an "underlying problem” with the balance wheel and some damage has caused to the mechanism over time
I call ‘bullshit’ to that! Ask him which ’AD’ he took it to as you would like to have a word with them about the watch. I think this buyer is trying it on.
Whatever the SGA is (maybe you mean the Sales of Goods Act - it was mainly repelled five years ago and replaced with the Consumer Rights Act) - Ebay don't give a **** about it - you agreed to this when you signed up - the terms and conditions are basically 'we get to decide and you should only use this service if you agree with that).
It could be genuine and it could be a scam , I'd get him to send it back and offer a full refund . You then have the option of repairing or relisting.
As said ebay will give him a full refund anyhow so you could potentially end up with no money and no watch
pretty much why i stopped selling on ebay , you are effectively forced to give a 6 month warantee on used items.
as bad as it sounds you mayaswell refund the buyer / take the watch back and move on -partial refunds seem to be a scammers favorite these days .
I'm tired, so mistakes made, oh well. Not that it matters because SGA, CRA, they do not apply. And it doesn't matter what ebay decide, that's why we have courts, and that's why ebay have on numerous occasions have been threatened with legal action and settled because they knew they were in the wrong and being chancers. Ebay are quite clear that in this case, the only grounds where money back guarantee will apply is if not as described. The email chain is very much in my favour. The buyer has even stated that they received what they were expecting.
This was more about whether ebay would be reasonable, or that I should start looking into County Court proceedings. I've already been told by the former head of litigation for an international firm that I'm in the green, and am now awaiting fir some feedback from my contract law lecturer.
Good luck with that.
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Yep. Very fishy fault description.
Sounds to me like he’s gone in and ‘regulated’ the watch (and by regulated I mean slipped a screwdriver through the balance spring)
As for eBay siding with the seller on this, unlikely despite what you think OP and the “no returns” means nothing. I’ve done the same in the past with watches and had stuff sent back after almost 30 days broken.
Buyer can just say it broke after 29 days and they get a nice refund and you get a broken watch back.
If you want to do no returns it’s prob best to sell for spares only in parts section.
The fault does sound fishy, but I can't see why he would try and regulate it if it was keeping 3s a day. But I don't believe his statements.
I don't doubt that he will be told he can return the watch, but I intend to stand my ground on this as I can in no way afford the financial implications if that occurs. Having spoken with my tutor today, I'm fairly certain that while a ball ache, it would be found in my favour given the circumstances of the sale and item, and the email exchange.
I'll also request the details of the AD to see if they'll talk to me about the damage.
"they inform me that this is due to gradual deterioration and would not have simply occurred in the time (under a week) that it was in my possession before the fault became obvious"
First he is saying that the fault would have become apparent while in my ownership. The fault being a watch that no longer works (certainly worked when he was wearing it)
" I understand you weren't to know this"
And then states that he understands I'd not have been aware of the fault.
Last edited by hafle; 20th March 2020 at 15:06.
eBay will issue him with a postage paid label - the cost of which will be taken from your account. Once the tracking shows that something (which, if you are lucky, will be your watch) has been delivered to you, eBay will refund him in full, from your account. If the are unable to do this (e.g. because you have closed your bank account), they will pass it over to their debt collectors.
If, for any reason (and I can't think of any) eBay decides against him, then he has up to 180 days to raise a new claim through PayPal.
Good luck trying to fight it!
Best of luck thinking you can take on ebay in the courts and win. Pick your battles
By the sound of it, this guy is taking the p!$$ and I feel for you........but.........just suck it up and move along and think twice before selling anything on Ebay EVER again.
Sorry...
If your lucky this will be looked at by one of the pg tips chimps now working for eBay cs with a computer with a single button named refund buyer, I only Sell stuff for less than £50 from eBay after I nearly got stung over a £100 camera
How much are we talking about here?
£1350. A service from an AD, without accounting for replacement parts, would start at £600..
thanks, so an amount worth fighting for, taking the principle of the thing out of the equation.
Indeed. In itself a considerable sum, not taking into account that's 2 months pay, my workplace shuts down tonight due to government advice, and I still owe £5k in school fees..
Hugh you are screwed. You may as well offer to take it back and pray he sends the watch rather than a rock. The law of the land regarding selling has very little to do with it. Ebay arbitrarily side with the buyer in situations like this, accepting a return is your only realistic option.
You can’t rely the fact you didn’t say it had been recently serviced, if you didn’t expressly sell it as a parts basket case you are obliged to provide something in working order which remains that way for months. Assuming the buyer is being honest, it sounds like it wasn’t or at least isn’t now so he will win any claim. Caveat vendor would be a better way of looking at it. This is why selling any watch with a recent service and better still repair warranty is a much better idea, then you can tell the seller to take it up with the watchmaker.
To be fair, you may have come in for some flak if this had been a forum rather than eBay sale, I would want more than a week out of a piece if described as working but then I assume anything I buy needs a service so am not often disappointed.
Last edited by Padders; 21st March 2020 at 08:03.
I suspect the watch is working fine but the buyer fancied a service – he just didn't fancy paying for it.
I would also argue that because someone has been 'inspecting' it, you have no way of knowing if the inspection has caused the damage. Who was the AD?
The buyer should have contacted you in the first instance it stopped working. Because he chose a different route, I would suggest it's now definitely his problem.
Whether eBay will see it like that though, is another matter
I kept the money. As I believed I would. Either by default, or through taking eBay to court.
There is no doubt that the watch which might have been returned would be a faulty watch. There was no escaping that.
I would rather not have gone through this, but the silver lining is that I got the outcome I did through applying my contract law training. My legal "advisors" simply confirmed my argument was on the right track. Stressful, but I'm just seeing it as a practical revision aid!
New watch arrives on Tuesday hopefully :)
What did you send eBay? Might be useful to others?
I'm not sure how the 30 day money back process works, so don't know if they buyer tried it, and ebay looked at the evidence and said no, or that my message convinced him that he didn't have a leg to stand on.
The only grounds on which the money abck guarantee could operate was if not as described. So I simply wrote a clear message to the buyer highlighting the evidence in the listing and prior communications that proved their was no misrepresentation on my behalf, and that he had received exactly that which he'd been expecting to receive; a 25 year old watch with no service history, that ran and kept time. By leaving his very positive feedback, he essentially confirmed it was what he had expected.
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