closing tag is in template navbar
Time Factors Watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 51 to 100 of 113

Thread: Talk to me about 911s....

  1. #51
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Herts
    Posts
    1,317
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post

    ...... a nice 3.6 Turbo will cost you north of 200k.
    Really?? That is unbelievable. What about the old 3.3 5sp?

    I don't disbelieve you I just didn't realise they had gone that silly....

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Yep, built between 1992/4 some 27 odd years older, no flappy paddle gearbox, not driver aids (other than ABS and Power Steering), not ceramic brakes, etc, etc. A bit like saying the Ferrari 250 GTO is crap compared with a new Fiat 500 Arbath.

    And your point is what?

    As for a Singer. It’s a custom made, hand built, Uber exclusive motor, powered by a handmade 4lt engine built by Cosworth, all of which costs about 4 times the price of a Gayman (sorry Cayman) . The Singer is rear engine, air cooled and the Cayman isn’t. End of

    But if we are trying to play top trumps, how would your new 981 compare with the new GT2 RS.
    My point is that the 964 is a slow car which doesn't handle well and costs a fortune. Even the turbo version is slow.

    The Singer is a ridiculous waste of money. It's hardly a virtue to be that expensive (half a million, i.e about 10x the price of my Gay car) and offer so little in terms of performance and handling. I'm pretty certain that on a twisty road or track, a Singer would be left for dead by my (manual transmission) Cayman GTS, and it would be annihilated by any current supercar at half the price. The engine's in the wrong place.

    Having said all that I do like 911s, but you have to be a lot more careful in corners because of the pendulum effect of the engine. In comparison, you can fling the Cayman into bends with ... gay abandon. I think you should try one, Andy. It's a revelation after the 911. There's a new 4.0L GTS which looks like a great deal in comparison with a £200k Antiques Roadshow special.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaDrZWbWq4
    Last edited by Holsterman; 17th March 2020 at 11:22.

  3. #53

    Talk to me about 911s....

    Interesting thread. For a while now Iíve wanted to change my e63 M6 for something with a manual gearbox and with a budget of around £35k I drew up the following shortlist

    996 Turbo

    Gen2 997

    Audi R8 V8 manual

    Aston Vantage V8

    The 996 Turbo looks like a great long-term investment but Ií am worried about whether I will actually want to drive it on a regular basis or just keep in the dehumidified garage

    The 997 is probably the most practical but likely to depreciate

    Yet to drive the R8 but Ií have heard great things. Possibly still likely to lose some money in the short-term

    I took a Vantage V8 out over the weekend and loved it. Drives a bit like a slower and heavier truck compared with my M6 but there was something special about it that I loved. Not sure about the residuals but I suspect some loss is inevitable.

    Going to try and find a nice 996 Turbo next and see how that compares.

  4. #54
    Master PreacherCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    2,967
    Not going to be of any assistance to the OP, since the only Porsche I have owned is a thirsty, shouty old relic with the engine at the wrong end, but... I retain a hankering for an old 911. Air-cooled of course, and to match my 928 it would technically need to be a 964. But what I really, really want is a 3.0 litre SC or a 3.2 Carrera. To me that is the essence of the 911 and it's the default shape and style (wide body, whale-tail please) which my brain generates as soon as I hear the name. Sadly, these days it seems that good ones are like rocking-horse dung, and priced accordingly.

    One thing I will say from my (admittedly limited) driving experience of these two models: there's a lot of gubbins written about gearboxes. Allegedly the later G50 is "far better" than the old 915... Personally I found the 915 nice and crisp, just with a longer throw than the G50; I certainly wouldn't reject an otherwise nice car because it had one. Like a lot of the received wisdom, it's always worth testing.

  5. #55
    Master PreacherCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    2,967
    Quote Originally Posted by Holsterman View Post
    My point is that the 964 is a slow car which doesn't handle well and costs a fortune. Even the turbo version is slow.

    The Singer is a ridiculous waste of money. It's hardly a virtue to be that expensive (half a million, i.e about 10x the price of my Gay car) and offer so little in terms of performance and handling. I'm pretty certain that on a twisty road or track, a Singer would be left for dead by my (manual transmission) Cayman GTS, and it would be annihilated by any current supercar at half the price. The engine's in the wrong place.
    All depends what you want the car for, I guess. There are hot-hatches aplenty (and probably quite a few panel vans these days) which can out-drag my old 928, and a Cayman would absolutely leave it behind in the corners. Thing is, I drive it because it makes me grin like a loon, and that's much more because of the sense of occasion than the outright performance. I disagree with Andy on many things, but he's dead right about the oil-and-leather smell and ambience of the cabin, and the fact that it is entirely possible to have an absolute hoot behind the wheel of an older car at reasonable speeds.

    I'd also take a bit of issue on the "old 911s don't handle" point - in my experience they're marvellously communicative cars and give you so much feedback that it's easier to find and exploit the limit of grip in one of those than anything else I've driven. Usual caveats re tyres and alignment apply, obviously, but the old cars really can be hustled through the twisties without killing you.

  6. #56
    I've been in a 996 with 3 other grown men, and it wasn't comfortable, but it was possible.

    I bought a Cayman instead of a 996 because the interior was so much nicer, I wasn't bothered about the performance drop (if there was any). I loved the feel of the car, still love it 2 years later. You can get the odd hefty bill, but you know that.

    If you're only doing 1000 miles a year in it, why bother unless you think it will be an investment? As someone else said, do a couple of track days a year in a rental.

  7. #57
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Berkshire UK
    Posts
    6,765
    Any Porsche, ancient or modern, coupe, cab or targa will have you grinning like a loon. A well sorted coupe is a delight and as this thread is lacking in photographs here's my 997!


  8. #58
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,555
    I've never driven the modern stuff but I'm thinking about a Cayman to replace my 335D E92

    Maybe this is what you want - I've had it since new in 1989, "F" Reg .......still drive it now and agin as it has been passed on to my son - hopefully will never be sold but passed down




    Last edited by BillN; 17th March 2020 at 15:07.

  9. #59
    Master PreacherCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    2,967
    Bill, that is gorgeous! Lovely car.

  10. #60
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    N/A
    Posts
    10,550
    Wow and to have owned that from new. Good going!

  11. #61
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,555
    Quote Originally Posted by PreacherCain View Post
    Bill, that is gorgeous! Lovely car.
    Thanks - it has been nursed - 3.2 Carrera SE model

    I bought in new in 1989, £36k I think, used it quite a bit for about 5 years, (we had a BMW as our family car), then occasionally for a few years - then (dry) stored for probably 10 years, which was probably a mistake - problems through lack of use - first problem, needed new fuel pump, etc., caused by rust in petrol tank which was discovered when new fuel pump did not function, new Porsche petrol tank, (expensive), brake callipers seized, etc., - I think £5k of "recommissioning costs - up to that date only had services - the car still has original exhaust and heat exchangers.
    Last edited by BillN; 17th March 2020 at 15:47.

  12. #62
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Chesham, Bucks
    Posts
    588
    I've been looking out for a 993 or 964 for a while now. The classic market was already beginning to soften, I would think any purchase like this now would be from the heart, not the head. The prices will lag the general markets by a year or so, but standby for prices to return to "normal" this year.

  13. #63
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by stevieb View Post
    Really?? That is unbelievable. What about the old 3.3 5sp?

    I don't disbelieve you I just didn't realise they had gone that silly....

    3.3 Turbos over 90k for anything half decent.

    The Turbo 2 is a rare beast indeed. I was once offered one for £42k (dark grey, one owner with 45k on the clock). The wife agreed on the proviso it was one in and one out. Couldnít bring myself to sell the Carrera 2.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  14. #64
    Master ditchvisitor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    2,045
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by BillN View Post
    I've never driven the modern stuff but I'm thinking about a Cayman to replace my 335D E92

    Maybe this is what you want - I've had it since new in 1989, "F" Reg .......still drive it now and agin as it has been passed on to my son - hopefully will never be sold but passed down




    Bill,
    It’s a bloody small world!! As soon as I saw that car, your name and the story about having it from new... Things have moved on since I fixed the red Audi 80!!!
    Do you still have the rest of the collection?

    Mike
    Last edited by ditchvisitor; 17th March 2020 at 16:34.

  15. #65
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,555
    Quote Originally Posted by ditchvisitor View Post
    Bill,
    It’s a bloody small world!! As soon as I saw that car, your name and the story about having it from new...
    Do you still have the rest of the collection?

    Mike
    Hi Mike, good to make contact, I saw the postings on the Forum and eventually figured out that it must be you

    I still have three Bikes, but never ride them anymore, I must have sold half a dozen before we moved - all the cars have gone, the Mercs, the MG's, the KG Beetle and the VX .........the 911 went to James some time ago and I bought a 335D E92 off this Forum maybe 18 months ago, but again I don't get out much these days, so it's seldom used.

    Lovely Porsche you have but it's only fair reward for your stays abroad - presumably you have seen sense and stopped riding Bikes!

    But I see that you have a passion for "Rolex" SS models

    Take care

    Bill

    (cannot see us going out at all in the next few months)
    Last edited by BillN; 17th March 2020 at 16:51.

  16. #66
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Holsterman View Post
    My point is that the 964 is a slow car which doesn't handle well and costs a fortune. Even the turbo version is slow.

    The Singer is a ridiculous waste of money. It's hardly a virtue to be that expensive (half a million, i.e about 10x the price of my Gay car) and offer so little in terms of performance and handling. I'm pretty certain that on a twisty road or track, a Singer would be left for dead by my (manual transmission) Cayman GTS, and it would be annihilated by any current supercar at half the price. The engine's in the wrong place.

    Having said all that I do like 911s, but you have to be a lot more careful in corners because of the pendulum effect of the engine. In comparison, you can fling the Cayman into bends with ... gay abandon. I think you should try one, Andy. It's a revelation after the 911. There's a new 4.0L GTS which looks like a great deal in comparison with a £200k Antiques Roadshow special.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaDrZWbWq4
    i have driven most of the newer Porsche’s including the cayman and it’s a fabulous car, but it isn’t a old oil cooled 911. Yes the Cayman is quick, even my mates Macan Turbo S is most likely quicker on a track (because that’s the only place that matters), but they are huge. I love sitting in mine looking up at modern minis, with my arse just a few inches of the ground. Go kart style. It maybe only about 290bhp, but it’s quick enough, it’s noisy (about 108.5dbm at 4000), will rev to 7000 and if you are brave enough will do over 165mph. Most importantly it makes me glad to be alive.

    My other car is an E350. It’s quick, it’s quiet, refined (with all the toys) and handles very well, but at the end of the day it’s mass produced by robots and it’s boring.

    Ref the Singer, putting the price to one side (you can get one for about 300k), they are the pinnacle of air cooled Porsche’s (along with RUF) the latest technology wrapped up in a body to die for. If I had the money, I would be ordering mine tomorrow. Plus at 500bhp, capable of 9000 rpm and weighting in at only 900 kgs, my money would be on A singer beating a Cayman every day of the week. Antiques Roadshow

    Now compare this to the 340bhp and the 1350kgs in the Cayman 981 GTS and the 400bhp you can expect from 982 GT4 which is even heavier weighting in at over 1420kg.

    Also looking at the GT4, its actually only about 0.7sec quicker 0-60 than my 30 year old 964. That is progress I suppose. But less so when you compare it to the latest Porsche 911 GT2 RS which achieves 0-60 in about 2.5 seconds - now that’s real progress.

    A bit of Singer porn for those unfamiliar with them.

    https://www.motor1.com/news/186485/s...1-restoration/

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Interesting thread. For a while now I’ve wanted to change my e63 M6 for something with a manual gearbox and with a budget of around £35k I drew up the following shortlist

    996 Turbo

    Gen2 997

    Audi R8 V8 manual

    Aston Vantage V8

    The 996 Turbo looks like a great long-term investment but I’ am worried about whether I will actually want to drive it on a regular basis or just keep in the dehumidified garage

    The 997 is probably the most practical but likely to depreciate

    Yet to drive the R8 but I’ have heard great things. Possibly still likely to lose some money in the short-term

    I took a Vantage V8 out over the weekend and loved it. Drives a bit like a slower and heavier truck compared with my M6 but there was something special about it that I loved. Not sure about the residuals but I suspect some loss is inevitable.

    Going to try and find a nice 996 Turbo next and see how that compares.
    I have probably driven all of those at some time or another, I bought an AMG GT

    I had a 996GT3 nearly new, it was my first posh car, once I got over the novelty it became boring,
    Last edited by adrianw; 17th March 2020 at 17:08.

  18. #68
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Interesting thread. For a while now Iíve wanted to change my e63 M6 for something with a manual gearbox and with a budget of around £35k I drew up the following shortlist

    996 Turbo

    Gen2 997

    Audi R8 V8 manual

    Aston Vantage V8

    The 996 Turbo looks like a great long-term investment but Ií am worried about whether I will actually want to drive it on a regular basis or just keep in the dehumidified garage

    The 997 is probably the most practical but likely to depreciate

    Yet to drive the R8 but Ií have heard great things. Possibly still likely to lose some money in the short-term

    I took a Vantage V8 out over the weekend and loved it. Drives a bit like a slower and heavier truck compared with my M6 but there was something special about it that I loved. Not sure about the residuals but I suspect some loss is inevitable.

    Going to try and find a nice 996 Turbo next and see how that compares.
    For a long term investment I would go 996 Turbo (its is pretty bullet proof because it has a Mezger engine). Best option is the X50. Over 440bhp of naughtiness. Or a Aston V12, however they are not without issues and most people I know who owned one fall out of love pretty quickly.

    Both the Audi and the Porsche are great cars, but I do not consider either an ďeventĒ when you drive them.

    The 996 Turbo is very capable of being a daily driver.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    But less so when you compare it to the latest Porsche 911 GT2 RS which achieves 0-60 in about 2.5 seconds - now thatís real progress.
    The GT2 RS costs well over £200,000, and you want to compare that with a 981 Cayman.

    The Singer's got 500bhp? Last time I looked they were around 350. I still think it's way overpriced even if you can get one for "only" £300,000.

    I'd be shopping for a Ferrari given that money, and there'd be a lot of change. Or perhaps even a GT2 RS!

  20. #70
    OP, my daily driver is a 997.2 Targa. My kids are around the same age as yours, a little older actually, and realistically they can sit in the back for 30 minutes before complaining. Interestingly when I test drove the coupe they felt carsick but they are okay in the Targa as it has larger windows and a more airy feel. Reasonably practical too for an impractical car with the hatchback. Okay it hasnít got the performance and handling of many of the other 911s but Iím fine with that and have thoroughly enjoyed my ownership of it since day one.

  21. #71
    Craftsman JoePattinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Beijing, China
    Posts
    455
    I really love my 997.1 although sadly I donít get to drive it that often. When I do get the chance to take it out it makes me laugh out loud!

    It was a childhood dream to have a 911 turbo but when I test drove some they just felt so capable and great as a daily but almost too easy. So I bought the GT3 it feels like I am learning more about it each time I drive it which makes it exciting.





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    For a long term investment I would go 996 Turbo (its is pretty bullet proof because it has a Mezger engine). Best option is the X50. Over 440bhp of naughtiness. Or a Aston V12, however they are not without issues and most people I know who owned one fall out of love pretty quickly.

    Both the Audi and the Porsche are great cars, but I do not consider either an ďeventĒ when you drive them.

    The 996 Turbo is very capable of being a daily driver.
    Iím drawn to the Porsche for this reason. Looked after and kept in a dehumidified garage with reasonable miles and I canít see me losing money - which would be nice for a change!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  23. #73
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Holsterman View Post
    The GT2 RS costs well over £200,000, and you want to compare that with a 981 Cayman.

    The Singer's got 500bhp? Last time I looked they were around 350. I still think it's way overpriced even if you can get one for "only" £300,000.

    I'd be shopping for a Ferrari given that money, and there'd be a lot of change. Or perhaps even a GT2 RS!

    Nope, but comparisons seem to be the name of the game today, with people comparing an old air cooled Porsche (which the OP was asking about) with a new water cooled Cayman for example.

    As for your Ferrari, I wish you all the best. The Portafino is the cheapest (engine in the front) at around £160k. A 488 will cost you around £200k. And then you have servicing costs - even more eye watering than Porsche. At least a Porsche OPC will service your Singer (or RUF) for that matter.

    Personally if I was looking for a new Mid Engined sports car, then I would be seriously tempted by the new C8 Corvette. At around £80k it delivers a lot of bang for the buck. In fact why not have 2 for the price of a Portofino.
    Last edited by Andyg; 17th March 2020 at 18:16.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  24. #74
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Iím drawn to the Porsche for this reason. Looked after and kept in a dehumidified garage with reasonable miles and I canít see me losing money - which would be nice for a change!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Excellent choice and no it will not lose money if you buy wisely.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  25. #75
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    12,130
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Personally if I was looking for a new Mid Engined sports car, then I would be seriously tempted by the new C8 Corvette. At around £80k it delivers a lot of bang for the buck.
    Got to be worth a look and you'll probably see less on the UK roads, too!

    M

  26. #76
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePattinson View Post
    I really love my 997.1 although sadly I donít get to drive it that often. When I do get the chance to take it out it makes me laugh out loud!

    It was a childhood dream to have a 911 turbo but when I test drove some they just felt so capable and great as a daily but almost too easy. So I bought the GT3 it feels like I am learning more about it each time I drive it which makes it exciting.





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Nice colour, most seem to be Green, White, Silver or Yellow.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  27. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Nope, but comparisons seem to be the name of the game today, with people comparing an old air cooled Porsche (which the OP was asking about) with a new water cooled Cayman for example.
    You are a genius at completely missing the point. The point I was making is that buying an air-cooled 911 is a bit daft given the astronomical prices, and the lack of performance and chassis technology, when even my run of the mill Cayman runs rings around them. If a 964 cost £10k, that would be about right.

    Your bringing the new GT2 RS into the discussion further reinforces my point about what a waste of money the Singer 911 is.

    P.S. Your philosophical signature shows an alarming lack of self-awareness.
    Last edited by Holsterman; 17th March 2020 at 18:52.

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Ref the Singer, putting the price to one side (you can get one for about 300k), they are the pinnacle of air cooled Porscheís (along with RUF) the latest technology wrapped up in a body to die for. If I had the money, I would be ordering mine tomorrow. Plus at 500bhp, capable of 9000 rpm and weighting in at only 900 kgs, my money would be on A singer beating a Cayman every day of the week. Antiques Roadshow

    https://www.motor1.com/news/186485/s...1-restoration/
    That's the Williams/Singer with 500 brake. A 1.5 million pound car. The regular one has a regular engine, much less than 400hp, and would get stuffed by a new Cayman S, in a straight line, and dynamically.


    Stupid argument. No one is deciding between a Singer 911 or a Cayman. If you could afford the Singer and wanted the Cayman for an everyday toy, you'd get it, too.

  29. #79
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Herts
    Posts
    1,317
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    3.3 Turbos over 90k for anything half decent.

    The Turbo 2 is a rare beast indeed. I was once offered one for £42k (dark grey, one owner with 45k on the clock). The wife agreed on the proviso it was one in and one out. Couldnít bring myself to sell the Carrera 2.
    What about the 930 5sp - must be rarer than the T2. Had my last 3.3 5sp one quite a few years ago and a couple of T2 after that. Still preferred the 930... Best one was an 86 with a few engine mods; took a lot of the lag away.....

    Different life but shame I donít still have all the Carson they are now making this money......

  30. #80
    Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Birmingham
    Posts
    2,838
    The only people bringing Singers into it are those who want to suggest the 964 isn't the ugly ginger stepchild of the 911 family, hence Singer's choice for a donor car. Singer are an irrelevance for UK buyers with less than twelvety million pounds to spend/waste.

    On a more sensible level. If I wanted a weekend toy (with 4 seats) at sensible money, a 997 would be my choice, ideally in gen 2 form if the funds run to it but in my case they didn't so I have a 997.1 which has been just fine for 3 enjoyable years. In my circle of friends we have several flavours of 997 inc the GT3. They are all an occasion to drive, obviously the GT3 more so than most but don't expect any non turbo Porker to feel stupidly quick vs the fastest of today. My day to day runner is a M240 which is demonstrably quicker than any 997 excepting the turbo and the GT3 but the latter only if you can keep the revs at 5K plus. If speed is what you want you need a turbo, anything from 996 onwards will give those kicks.

    If 2 seats are enough then sure a late Cayman or R8 would be on my list too. But not the Aston V8 or Jag since they are both more style over substance.
    Last edited by Padders; 18th March 2020 at 09:49.

  31. #81
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Holsterman View Post
    You are a genius at completely missing the point. The point I was making is that buying an air-cooled 911 is a bit daft given the astronomical prices, and the lack of performance and chassis technology, when even my run of the mill Cayman runs rings around them. If a 964 cost £10k, that would be about right.

    Your bringing the new GT2 RS into the discussion further reinforces my point about what a waste of money the Singer 911 is.

    P.S. Your philosophical signature shows an alarming lack of self-awareness.
    The Singer used the 964 as it platform - note they did not use the 3.2 or the 993 platform. Why do you think that was? In fact the Singer still used the 964 doors, although pretty much everything else is replaced.

    As for pricing, the OP was initially taking about the practicability of a Targa, for his family. A nice 991 Targa will cost you over 50k so actually we are talking air cooled money. 50k could buy you a 3.0, 3.2 a 964 and poss a 993 depending on body and spec.

    Then we get someone telling us all that an old 911 will be beaten by a Cayman as if thatís relevant. All I did was point out that even the new 4l Cayman, would not compete against new 911 GT2, (nor would it against a GT3 nor a Turbo), nor the Singer but I admitted it would beat a my 30 year old 964. A bit like me saying my 964 would beat a 356 - meaningless.

    Any finally you tell us that you would buy a Ferrari (as if we cared), before questioning my self awareness! Whoosh!

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  32. #82
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by stevieb View Post
    What about the 930 5sp - must be rarer than the T2. Had my last 3.3 5sp one quite a few years ago and a couple of T2 after that. Still preferred the 930... Best one was an 86 with a few engine mods; took a lot of the lag away.....

    Different life but shame I donít still have all the Carson they are now making this money......
    There seems to be quite a few old 930 Turbos about (the poster car). Good ones can be found for less than 100k. There is a concourse one for sale at 240k so very big money. The problem however they are a bit old school (no ABS or Power steering) plus the turbo lag is legendary (widow maker). I think something like only 130 930 G50 came to the UK, so yes quite rare. But the Turbo 2 is much rarer because fewer than 1500 we made worldwide partly because it was only made between 93/4. The Turbo 2 S is even rarer (only 90 odd were made).

    The 930 is a true icon.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  33. #83
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    The only people bringing Singers into it are those who want to suggest the 964 isn't the ugly ginger stepchild of the 911 family, hence Singer's choice for a donor car.
    ouch.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    The Singer used the 964 as it platform - note they did not use the 3.2 or the 993 platform. Why do you think that was?
    I'd refer that question to the charlatan in charge of Singer - I have no idea why he chose the inferior 964 over the 993. Poor taste and a lack of knowledge would be my guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    50k could buy you a 3.0, 3.2 a 964 and poss a 993 depending on body and spec.
    With 150,000 miles on the clock, LHD +/- rust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Then we get someone telling us all that an old 911 will be beaten by a Cayman as if thatís relevant. All I did was point out that even the new 4l Cayman, would not compete against new 911 GT2, (nor would it against a GT3 nor a Turbo), nor the Singer but I admitted it would beat a my 30 year old 964. A bit like me saying my 964 would beat a 356 - meaningless.
    It is relevant, unless money means absolutely nothing to you. Sports cars are about driving. Caymans like mine go for around £50k or less. The new GT2 is £200k+. It's a silly comparison, and particularly so because the new GT2 is a lot less expensive than your favoured £1.5M 964 Singer and has 700HP vs 500HP for the very silly Singer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Any finally you tell us that you would buy a Ferrari (as if we cared), before questioning my self awareness! Whoosh!
    Given a choice between spending £500,000 on an overwrought, cartoonish and relatively slow "re-imagined" 911, or a 458 Speciale at £300,000, well it's a no-brainer, IMO. The 458 is a bargain in comparison.

  35. #85
    Apprentice
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Chichester, UK
    Posts
    10
    Without getting all misty-eyed I drive a 911 (997.2S) because itís the most beautiful car design ever and a Ďthingí I adored from the moment I first saw one as a kid. Lambos, Fezzas, Astons etc never appealed to me and still donít.

    As a bonus it goes like a stabbed rat, defies physics in the corners and I can fit my 2 youngest in the back (who also love it). Every trip is an occasion!

    All IMHO of course.... :)

  36. #86
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Holsterman View Post
    I'd refer that question to the charlatan in charge of Singer - I have no idea why he chose the inferior 964 over the 993. Poor taste and a lack of knowledge would be my guess.

    Perhaps he chose it because it was the same platform used for the RUF CTR Yellowbird, which was officially the fastest production car in the world until the McLaren F1.

    With 150,000 miles on the clock, LHD +/- rust.



    It is relevant, unless money means absolutely nothing to you. Sports cars are about driving. Caymans like mine go for around £50k or less. The new GT2 is £200k+. It's a silly comparison, and particularly so because the new GT2 is a lot less expensive than your favoured £1.5M 964 Singer and has 700HP vs 500HP for the very silly Singer.

    How people chose to spend their money is up to then, but a Singer is certainly a lot more practical than say a Ferrari FX at over £2m. But ask yourself this? If you had pots of money available would you have bought a Cayman or something better. If the answer is yes, then my point is made, if no, then you are telling porkies.

    Given a choice between spending £500,000 on an overwrought, cartoonish and relatively slow "re-imagined" 911, or a 458 Speciale at £300,000, well it's a no-brainer, IMO. The 458 is a bargain in comparison.

    In your opinion, if you were going to track it and you were happy to spend £3k on servicing it, £6k on replacement clutches and mega money replacing tyres. Not withstanding that I very much doubt you have the skills to actually drive one to its fully computer controlled capability.

    Any way the point is completely moot, donít you think. You prefer the Ferrari, where as I prefer the Porsche/singer.



    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  37. #87
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,555
    some of the most fun I have had was in a Pug 106 GTi - Diablo Red - paid £2,500 for it for my son - (being only a 1.6 the car was eligible to be put on the Company insurance policy and driven by him as he was under 21 at the time)

  38. #88
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    1,328
    I've got a 1.6 205 GTi that I bought for £1500 that i'll probably never part with due to how much fun it is.

    I also have the most hated 911... A 996.1 which replaced a 996TT that I just never really gelled with. Turns out I don't really care for custodial sentence speeds and prefer a metallic growl to a whoosh. I did think about trading the turbo against a 997.2 C2 but in the last few years I've moved towards older, more analogue cars and the 997.2 just steps a bit too close to that line compared to the 996. In an ideal world I would have a 996 or 997 GT3 but much like the OP I have a 7yo and a 9yo kid and the 2+2 nature of the non GT 911 is just perfect as an occasional car for solo hoons or family outings.

    I think you either get the 911 or you don't, you're either a 911 guy or you're not. Saying it's not as comfy as a Jag is just not getting it. It's a car that almost sits in a category of its own. A car that is designed as a sports car from the outset (not like an M car), a sports car that a family man can use in almost all situations unlike an R8. I've had 2 seaters and you just don't get to use them if you have family. bout the only alternative I can think of is the Lotus Evora.

  39. #89
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by mowflow View Post
    I've got a 1.6 205 GTi that I bought for £1500 that i'll probably never part with due to how much fun it is.

    I also have the most hated 911... A 996.1 which replaced a 996TT that I just never really gelled with. Turns out I don't really care for custodial sentence speeds and prefer a metallic growl to a whoosh. I did think about trading the turbo against a 997.2 C2 but in the last few years I've moved towards older, more analogue cars and the 997.2 just steps a bit too close to that line compared to the 996. In an ideal world I would have a 996 or 997 GT3 but much like the OP I have a 7yo and a 9yo kid and the 2+2 nature of the non GT 911 is just perfect as an occasional car for solo hoons or family outings.

    I think you either get the 911 or you don't, you're either a 911 guy or you're not. Saying it's not as comfy as a Jag is just not getting it. It's a car that almost sits in a category of its own. A car that is designed as a sports car from the outset (not like an M car), a sports car that a family man can use in almost all situations unlike an R8. I've had 2 seaters and you just don't get to use them if you have family. bout the only alternative I can think of is the Lotus Evora.
    The Lotus Evora is a good choice, but I am not sure how big it is in the back. What would put me off is Lots of Trouble Usually Serious

    You are dead right about 911ís - opinions a divided. People either get them or they donít. I think itís because there is nothing like it, which perhaps explains why Porsche never decided to go mid-engine with it.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  40. #90
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    1,328
    The space in the back of the Evora is very similar to a 997 coupe. Both of which have more room than a 911 cab. There's less glass in an Evora and therefor it does feel a lot more claustrophobic. I think since they started using Toyota engines the "usually serious" part no longer rings true and it's more a case of lots of annoying little niggles. However, it all goes back to that thing of you're either a 911 guy or you're not. If you are then you need to scratch the itch and an Audi, Lotus, even another model Porsche just isn't going to do it.

    Another point on the reliability thing. Air cooled cars are NOT bomb proof and the cost of some air cooled parts make the water cooled cars look comparable to a Ford Fiesta.
    Last edited by mowflow; 18th March 2020 at 19:07.

  41. #91
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    276
    I have a Cayman 987, i smile every time i drive it, and it go's round corners like it's on rails...very happy!

  42. #92
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by mowflow View Post
    The space in the back of the Evora is very similar to a 997 coupe. Both of which have more room than a 911 cab. There's less glass in an Evora and therefor it does feel a lot more claustrophobic. I think since they started using Toyota engines the "usually serious" part no longer rings true and it's more a case of lots of annoying little niggles. However, it all goes back to that thing of you're either a 911 guy or you're not. If you are then you need to scratch the itch and an Audi, Lotus, even another model Porsche just isn't going to do it.

    Another point on the reliability thing. Air cooled cars are NOT bomb proof and the cost of some air cooled parts make the water cooled cars look comparable to a Ford Fiesta.
    No engine is bomb proof, but the benefit of Air Cooled is that they are less complex simply because you are not mixing oil with water (Citroen 2CV, Fiat 500 and VW Beetle to name a fewí). So less bits in the engine to go wrong. No water pump for example 😀.

    No argument on the price of parts. The benefit with 911ís is that Porsche will still provide parts (at a cost), thatís there are lots of patent parts are available or you can always upgrade to newer/improved parts, from one of the numerous performance companies doing Porscheís. A standard steel exhaust rear silencer from Porsche is about £1800 plus VAT, however a performance unit from Dansk in stainless was about £1000.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  43. #93
    Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Kent/SW London
    Posts
    1,435
    Whatever you do, set a budget, research provenance and absolutely 100% definitely get a pre-purchase inspection. I regret not doing this when I bought my Boxster.

    Oh, and don't get tiptronic ;)


  44. #94
    @Andyg;5354676

    When all else fails, have a go at my apparent lack of driving skill, using an unquotable post.

    I quite like 911s (modern ones), but traded mine for a 981 because the Cayman is a far better sports car, not because I ran out of money!
    Last edited by Holsterman; 19th March 2020 at 13:04.

  45. #95
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Holsterman View Post
    @Andyg;5354676

    When all else fails, have a go at my apparent lack of driving skill, using an unquotable post.

    I quite like 911s (modern ones), but traded mine for a 981 because the Cayman is a far better sports car, not because I ran out of money!

    Honestly you think that a Porsche would design and build a car which was ďbetterĒ than its iconic flagship model and sell it for 50% less? Doesnít sound like a very good business plan to me.

    As I said, the Cayman is a great car, itís nimble, fast, handles brilliantly, however itís NOT and never will be a 911. Just as neither is a 944, 928, 968 or even a 912, although the 912 does get closer than the others.

    All very interesting, but the OP was talking about Aircooled Porscheís.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  46. #96
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,630
    Quote Originally Posted by rico View Post
    Whatever you do, set a budget, research provenance and absolutely 100% definitely get a pre-purchase inspection. I regret not doing this when I bought my Boxster.

    Oh, and don't get tiptronic ;)
    PPI (undertaken by a expert is vital). I would also suggest a compression/leak down test. Rust should not be a problem on anything made post 1989 because all were galvanised. That said the 964 and 993 is prone to some rust in the wheel wells, the shark fins, the top mounts and around the front windscreen (usually caused when the coating was damaged during a windscreen was replaced).

    The 964 was prone to some oil leaks, mainly because Porsche chose not to use gaskets , however a sweaty engine is not the end of world, but does attract the interest of MoT testers. Most have been now been fixed with a top end rebuild.

    Other things to check - all the warning lights are working (especially on the C4 models), suspension is good, rear spoiler mechanisms is ok (expensive to fix), and the state of the AC.

    Other than this they are just like any other car.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  47. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Honestly you think that a Porsche would design and build a car which was ďbetterĒ than its iconic flagship model and sell it for 50% less? Doesnít sound like a very good business plan to me.
    JMO, but plenty of people agree with me. After four years in a 997S, the 981 is a revelation, and I wish I'd tried one first. At least I got the 911 itch out of my system...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    All very interesting, but the OP was talking about Aircooled Porscheís.
    You can't even get that right - the OP was talking about a 997 Targa. And for God's sake please learn how to use apostrophes.

  48. #98
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,555
    it's not all about speed, an air-cooled 911 has "soul" - just as a 356 has

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Holsterman View Post
    I'd refer that question to the charlatan in charge of Singer - I have no idea why he chose the inferior 964 over the 993. Poor taste and a lack of knowledge would be my guess.

    The interior of the 964 is slightly classier, and much easier to tart up, that's my thought on why Dickinson chose the 964 for Singers.

  50. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by doctorj View Post
    The interior of the 964 is slightly classier, and much easier to tart up, that's my thought on why Dickinson chose the 964 for Singers.
    Good call, the Singer's all about show, not go. Plus very amusing pricing.

    it's not all about speed, an air-cooled 911 has "soul" - just as a 356 has
    Machines are machines. Some have a great exhaust note.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkpTyMNV8E

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information