Talk to me about 911s....

[Piemuncher22]

The wife has always wanted a 911, I’ve saved and invested for my entire working life and I now find myself (40 years of age) slap bang in the middle of a mid life crisis thinking it may be a good idea to spend a little cash on something I can enjoy with the whole family rather than watches all the time. So I went to a very well thought of local Porsche specialist yesterday and fell utterly in love with a stunning 997 Targa with all the knobs and whistles.
It really is an utter minefield of course, there seem to be more model variants of the 911 than there are fish in the sea, and hence the visit to the local garage to have a look and a good old chat.
It’s early days of course, I need a couple of weeks cooling off period at least, and I need to do a bit more research, but before I take the big plunge....
I know there are those on here who love their cars, and moreover their Porsche’s, so does anyone have any pearls of wisdom for me?? And am I barking up the wrong tree?? Should I be looking at something else entirely?? The only requirement really is that it needs to be convertible, nice to look at, able to just about fit the 9 and 7 year old kids in the back for 3/4 hour drives to the beach, and be good for about 1000 miles a year.


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[GOAT]

I’ve owned a few and they’ve all been fun
If I were looking now I’d be after something where I could talk myself into a degree of investment potential so without spending a colossal amount, I think one of the last Mezger engined 997 Turbos would be my choice, up to 60-70k Miles would be ok if you’re giving it minimal mileage.
They’re all quite expensive to run so some hope of value increase would help ease the mind.
A 993 would be second choice, a good friend just bought a minter for £50k from a marque specialist

[Andyg]

I know this feeling very well. I bought my 911 when I hit 42, (and still have it 17 years later).

Unfortunately your children will find it cramped, noisy and uncomfortable.

Personally I think you should be looking elsewhere, however the first question you should ask yourself is whether you want an something a bit older/more special (and live the the possible issues related) or you want something new with all the latest aids. If the latter, then I would look at something like a Bentley GT, Mercedes E Class, Audi A5, etc convertibles. A bit boring by which ticks all the boxes. Or you go for something a bit different and special (which based upon your mileage), which could include any large 4 seat convertible built from the 1950's. A 57 Chevy or Mustang (for example)

Alas either option is the same as a Porsche 911, therefore if that's what you really want, then that's what you should get, but accept the fact that its really only built for 2 audits and under 5s (max).

[gavsw20]

What’s your budget? A 997.1 can be had for early to mid £20k but there are some web scare stories about IMS and bore scoring. The 997.2 is £40k+ but has none of the above issues. The turbo is £55k + and has a different engine so no worries there.

I’ve had my 997.1 CS for almost two years now and only issue I’ve had is a blown water pump (£400) plus usual tyres (Camskill are cheapest) and servicing (use a specialist). I do about 10k a year mainly which is 60% motorway 40% spirited B roads. I also own a 944S2 and swapped my Cayman for the 911...be prepared to never not own a Porsche again once you get one as the big bites hard. I’m upgrading to a 991.1 at some point.

Main advice would be:
- Set a budget and don’t keep adding £5k on otherwise before you know it you will be at £50k +
- Get on YouTube / forums and do your research
- Buy from a specialist e.g. RSJ (mine came from
here), 911Virgin, RPM, Dove House
- Buy on paperwork not mileage or spec
- Be aware that the satnav is absolutely shocking, some without full postcode lookup - I swapped mine for a £300 Sony Apple Car play with full screen Waze, Google maps, Tidal, Spotify etc...
- Don’t discount the Boxster S

They are awesome cars and are happy plodding along on the motorway or attacking b-roads. Surprisingly practical as long as you have soft luggage and return early 20s mpg.

[gavsw20]

Just seen the comment re 9 and 7yo kids in the back for long drives. I’d scrub the 911 off the list straight away as all the seats are fit for is new-borns or a trip to the corner shop in the rain.

[gilford]

Went down this route myself at (coming up to) 40 (and 30 for that matter!).

I spent 8 months looking for mine, biggest thing I learnt was buy on condition and NOT price!

Many weekends were wasted travelling the country going to OPC’s and “specialists” looking at cars I was told were mint only to get there and they are far from it.

I ended up buying a low mileage private sale car with OPC warranty and it’s been a joy to own, apart from warranty renewal and fittings an OEM sports exhaust my 991.1 C4s hasn’t missed a beat and I use it every day!

My plan last year was to get a 991 Turbo this Spring but with all that’s going on I think I’ll keep this for another year, it’s just turned 18k miles so barely broke in as yet!

I cannot sing the praises of the NA 991.1 enough, yes it’s a bit bigger than the previous cars but it’s much more of a daily driver (which I wanted) and the noise is sublime, the newer 3.0 991.2 cars don’t seem to be very sought after and the purists go for the NA 3.8.

What model are you looking at and what is your budget?

[gilford]

Just seen the comment re 9 and 7yo kids in the back for long drives. I’d scrub the 911 off the list straight away as all the seats are fit for is new-borns or a trip to the corner shop in the rain.

I disagree, my daughter is a very lanky 10 year old and fits perfectly behind my wife in the passenger side, we often do 3 hour journeys to the Lakes with no issues whatsoever.

[Holsterman]

The rear seats in a 911 are really not suitable for children over 5. They are a place to fling your shopping/jacket/briefcase. I ran a 997S for four years, having wanted one since childhood. Great fun, but I traded it for a Cayman 981 GTS which is better-balanced, just as fast, and arguably better-looking.

I think an M3 would be a better bet for your children.

[xellos99]

Just go to a race track and hire some sports cars to get it out of your system and then buy something more practical that your kids will actually like rather than have then think you self indulged and got a silly loud uncomfortable cramped thing for yourself

[gavsw20]

I disagree, my daughter is a very lanky 10 year old and fits perfectly behind my wife in the passenger side, we often do 3 hour journeys to the Lakes with no issues whatsoever.

That may work, but the OP will also have someone sat behind him. And if he’s 6ft then there will be little to no room in the footwell at the rear.

[gavsw20]

I disagree, my daughter is a very lanky 10 year old and fits perfectly behind my wife in the passenger side, we often do 3 hour journeys to the Lakes with no issues whatsoever.

The rear seats in a 911 are really not suitable for children over 5. They are a place to fling your shopping/jacket/briefcase. I ran a 997S for four years, having wanted one since childhood. Great fun, but I traded it for a Cayman 981 GTS which is better-balanced, just as fast, and arguably better-looking.

I think an M3 would be a better bet for your children.

This /\

[RS404]

Do 981 Caymans have any engine issues?

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[gilford]

The rear seats in a 911 are really not suitable for children over 5. They are a place to fling your shopping/jacket/briefcase. I ran a 997S for four years, having wanted one since childhood. Great fun, but I traded it for a Cayman 981 GTS which is better-balanced, just as fast, and arguably better-looking.

I think an M3 would be a better bet for your children.

991 is more roomier than the previous gen, I had a 996 when I was 30 and it was awfully cramped, my recommendation was 991 only.

I’m 6ft 2” and my daughter fit behind me also, not as much room but she doesn’t complain, but then she’s not a moaner! Lol

[gavsw20]

Do 981 Caymans have any engine issues?

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No engine issues but there were issues with headlamp pods and heater failure. Mine had the latter fail and was replaced under warranty. I also had issues with the e-brake where an alert would flash on the dash but this was never addressed as they couldn’t ever replicate it.

[bobdog]

My son had two 911s over a 6 year period and during his ownership thoroughly enjoyed them although the second one had the dreaded bore scoring so he bailed out and bought a F80 M3 which was virtually the same as mine. Porsche are now a thing of the past as after 6 months he still loves the M3, totally different and very much more up to date with the advantage of being able to fit 2 adults in the rear.

[Holsterman]

Do 981 Caymans have any engine issues?

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Not that I know of. It's the same 3.4L flat-six out of the 991 Carrera. Pretty reliable (fingers crossed).

The 997.1 3.8L (which I had) is, I think, the last of the bore-scorers, although even with that, it only affected a tiny percentage.

[Mick P]

I don't like 911s. When I 58yrs and my wife was coming up for her 55th, there was a 911 going that had a bespoke leather interior, so very much a one off that was made to a wealthy customers order.

The salesman allowed my wife to drive and I sat in the passenger seat. I have to say that I was driving a Jaguar at the time and it was far more quiet and comfortable than the 911. The last straw was that the seats were so tight and low down, the salesman had to pull us out of the car as we were both stuck.

Definitely a young mans car.

[Omegamanic]

Some of the seats can be a squeeze, but as the average age of 911 ownership is 52, I’m sure some of us over 40’s+ can also cope ok too. I know a couple of new 911 owners in their 70’s, who enjoy their cars - but not as an only car.

[Harry Smith]

I did the whole Porsche thing in the 90's so no itch to scratch but I do wish I had been able to hang on to one or two looking at current values.
If you haven't scratched by now, unless you're minted, it probably makes less sense as attitudes to gas guzzling CO pumpers get increasingly aggressive and punitive.
It's also getting more difficult to 'enjoy' cars on the road as overtaking and brisk driving seems to have become practically criminal in the views of some 'amateur traffic police (aka a-holes)' sending their dash-cam footage to the police and average speed cameras which definitely work.
It will be interesting to see where this will all end up.
But go for it while you still can. You feel 'special' driving any Porsche imo.

[ism123]

If the 911 has to accommodate your 9 & 7 year olds then listen to those on here that have experience with kids that age and go on an extended test drive where you can to make sure it's what you and they want. As others have said there are probably better cabriolet cars out there that will work for your family arrangements, but for me there's nothing quite like a 911. Once bitten you'll probably do more than the 1000 miles per year then :)

Ian

[Damo]

Going to follow this thread as I've also been looking at 911's. One of the 2 cars I've always wanted, the other being an rs4 avant.

It's good to hear of others experience of the 911 with kids as my 2 are coming up for 10 and 7.

[scooby]

Having owned numerous 911s over the years with my kids growing up i can add that kids love the cramped rear seats for the noise and excitement that a 911 offers
Buy the best you can for your budget there great cars


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[mtagrant]

Having owned numerous 911s over the years with my kids growing up i can add that kids love the cramped rear seats for the noise and excitement that a 911 offers
Buy the best you can for your budget there great cars


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I will echo that - my kids are a bit smaller at 5 and 8, but they loved the back of the 911, and they were ok booster seats, so should be enough room for older kids. This was the last generation (991), which is quite a bit bigger than previous models. Of course it depends on the size of the driver and passenger how far back to the front seats go, and therefore how much leg room is left for those in the back

[Piemuncher22]

Thanks for all your comments chaps - and for all the other suggestions. All very much appreciated. I’ve been back today just to try out the kids in the back of the 997 Targa, and I have to say I was somewhat pleasantly surprised. Granted, it’s not the most spacious thing in the world, but my two fitted in there much better than I was expecting. I am 6ft 4, and even with the drivers seat comfortably back where I’d need it to be I would have no worries about putting the little ones in the back for an hour or so. The cabriolet was a different story. That really did look quite uncomfortable, mainly because the back “seats” are bolt upright.
I should have added in my first post that I’m not really looking for a 4 seater per se, I disagree with Jeremy Clarkson on pretty much everything, but he was correct when he said that the only man ever to look good in a 4 seat convertible was Adolf Hitler. I would class the 911 as a 2+2, which in my opinion (different to that of others I suppose) should be fine to chuck the kids into for a trip to the seaside once in a while.
All of this is slightly irrelevant now - the Mrs came with me as well as the kids and the 987 is firmly off the menu......
Now looking for a classic air cooled!


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[Piemuncher22]

Having owned numerous 911s over the years with my kids growing up i can add that kids love the cramped rear seats for the noise and excitement that a 911 offers
Buy the best you can for your budget there great cars


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This.
Very sound advice. I don’t really have a budget to speak of, I have a top end, but that’s between me and the bank manager. Suffice to say though, it’s “realistic” but sadly puts me just outside Turbo money.
For the record, as cramped as the kids were, on the test fits, I think they are more excited than I am about the whole prospect.


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[Bernard]

Try a 944 turbo, not as well known as a 911 but getting more and more appreciated by the Porsche folks.

My dad gave me his 944 in February 2018, 2,5 months before he died (unexpectedly although he had been ill for a number of years).
I love it, it is well maintained and crazy fast when cornering.

The engine has a few things modified and has more HP now than it ever had when new.

[Holsterman]

This.
Very sound advice. I don’t really have a budget to speak of, I have a top end, but that’s between me and the bank manager. Suffice to say though, it’s “realistic” but sadly puts me just outside Turbo money.
For the record, as cramped as the kids were, on the test fits, I think they are more excited than I am about the whole prospect.


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The 991 is a limo, back from that, you get more "sporty", then "agricultural". 996 is great, before that it's tractors. Hard-tops drive best, Targas are top-heavy and don't handle, open-tops are for the hairdressers.

[Hood]

Must admit having the kids in the back of a 911 almost defeats it's purpose for me.
I'm sure we all drive pretty sedately with the kids in the back but the point of a 911 is it's a proper sports car-not a saloon car powered up.
The feeling of blasting one of these on a winding road is a great feeling with it's performance and handling.
The comment about the Cayman 981 was pretty accurate-arguably better looking and all the performance you will ever need outside of the racetrack.
All the Porsches I owned ended up expensive ornaments in the driveway but I think I'll still end up with another as they are a bit addictive.
Good luck and I wouldn't look at them as investments if thats your reason for thinking of going air cooled-I think that ship has sailed.

[murkeywaters]

Myself and quite a few friends are in a WhatsApp classic car/car group who go out for a drive and dinner now and again, there is lots of varied cars from mk1 Escort to a McLaren 570S, one car that most of us agree on as being the best overall car is a first generation Audi R8 manual, its fast, reliable, comfortable, handles really well being quattro, looks brilliant and best of all it sounds incredible with a sports exhaust.

Yes the kids will not fit in the back, but hey, its an amazing car..

[Padders]

Try a 944 turbo, not as well known as a 911 but getting more and more appreciated by the Porsche folks.

My dad gave me his 944 in February 2018, 2,5 months before he died (unexpectedly although he had been ill for a number of years).
I love it, it is well maintained and crazy fast when cornering.

The engine has a few things modified and has more HP now than it ever had when new.

The 944 is a development of a 1970s design, the youngest out there is now nearly 30 years old. It soldiered on for another 5 years as the 968 but while a classic Porsche is a lovely thing, they aren’t for everyone. Even a 10 year old Boxster can be ruinously expensive to maintain if you are unlucky and the chances of big bills increase with age.

[gavsw20]

Thanks for all your comments chaps - and for all the other suggestions. All very much appreciated. I’ve been back today just to try out the kids in the back of the 997 Targa, and I have to say I was somewhat pleasantly surprised. Granted, it’s not the most spacious thing in the world, but my two fitted in there much better than I was expecting. I am 6ft 4, and even with the drivers seat comfortably back where I’d need it to be I would have no worries about putting the little ones in the back for an hour or so. The cabriolet was a different story. That really did look quite uncomfortable, mainly because the back “seats” are bolt upright.
I should have added in my first post that I’m not really looking for a 4 seater per se, I disagree with Jeremy Clarkson on pretty much everything, but he was correct when he said that the only man ever to look good in a 4 seat convertible was Adolf Hitler. I would class the 911 as a 2+2, which in my opinion (different to that of others I suppose) should be fine to chuck the kids into for a trip to the seaside once in a while.
All of this is slightly irrelevant now - the Mrs came with me as well as the kids and the 987 is firmly off the menu......
Now looking for a classic air cooled!


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Wise choice re air-cooled, I’m desperate for one but funds and garage space don’t allow at the moment.

Prices seam stable at the moment with £40k getting you into a decent SC or Carrera. Crazy as these were £15k not that long ago.

Don’t be put off by a high-mileage car from this era as the engines were sound. My 30yo 944 S2 has just turned 200,000 miles and runs as sweet as a nut.

Plenty of buyers guides on the net with the main issues being rust especially around the kidney-bowls and sills. Expect to see a few upgrades in adverts especially suspension and braking. I’d be inclined to buy privately as the owner will know the history of the car and likely previous owner history.

There are bargains to be had, my mate picked up a white 80’s Carrera cabriolet (wide-body) for £22k !!!!! Chap wanted a sale literally that weekend.

[Pretzel]

Now looking for a classic air cooled!
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If you decide on an air cooled car my 993 will be for sale later this month but its a Coupe rather than Convertible or Targa

[eagletower]

I have a 991, my kids loves it.

The 997 is a great 911 in my opinion. Modern day car, reliable, classic 911 looks unlike the 996. Relatively cheap to service and maintain. Go for it!

[mondie]

Myself and quite a few friends are in a WhatsApp classic car/car group who go out for a drive and dinner now and again, there is lots of varied cars from mk1 Escort to a McLaren 570S, one car that most of us agree on as being the best overall car is a first generation Audi R8 manual, its fast, reliable, comfortable, handles really well being quattro, looks brilliant and best of all it sounds incredible with a sports exhaust.

Yes the kids will not fit in the back, but hey, its an amazing car..

Interesting comments re: R8. I have been begun to ponder the first gen V10 or a GT4 once the lad has his licence and we no longer need the Golf as a second car. I guess this thread has served its purpose for the OP and I may start a thread soon on the GT4 as I am unsure if there are any owners amongst us?

[langdalematt]

Would not buy anything now. The value of luxury goods is going to tank soon, people paying off the debts left behind from what is happening now. Along with it expect house prices to drop too.

[snowman]

I've never owned a 911.

I've been in a few and driven a couple (including a GT3 with a ludicrously heavy clutch!) and I've generally found them beautifully built machines.

However, there's something I don't like about the way they drive.

The GT3, if you weren't changing gear, was stunningly capable, but it didn't inspire confidence in me.

Most 911s are stretching the 2+2 claim beyond the bounds of credulity, too.

Still, you see an awful lot around, they win every single Evo comparison test going (I stopped subscribing because every issue just seemed to be another 'best eva 911' and 'best eva McLaren' retread with a model with .005 kg shaved off the weight for an extra £50K...) and I've never encountered an owner who wasn't besotted with theirs.

I still wouldn't buy one, though...

I have to say, on very limited experience, the Audi R8 was a car that greatly impressed me, too. Felt far more special to drive than a Porsche at sensible speeds - A Porsche MAY be better on a race circuit, but even if you do trackdays, what percentage of your driving would be at the limit?

M

[Dave O'Sullivan]

As a ‘family’ car, I’d look elsewhere personally.
I recently bought a Continental GT and although it’s hardly massive in the back, it’s bigger than my mates 996. Prices are coming down too so the convertibles will be in a similar range to a decent 997 targa I’d have thought.

Edit: never mind, just seen your latest post!

[ditchvisitor]

I’ve got a 996 GT3, if you are looking at 996/997’s I would make sure you have read up on RMS/IMS and bore scoring, plenty of good advice on 911UK.

[bigweb]

I've got a 991. It's mega.

I generally don't keep cars long but I havent got a clue what to replace it with. There isnt really anything else sports car wise that I can fit my 2 boys in.

The only thing I keep coming back to is a Conti GT. Although I just think it's too in your face to go and visit clients in

[eagletower]

I've got a 991. It's mega.

I generally don't keep cars long but I havent got a clue what to replace it with. There isnt really anything else sports car wise that I can fit my 2 boys in.

The only thing I keep coming back to is a Conti GT. Although I just think it's too in your face to go and visit clients in

I've had mine 5 years now and every time i drive it still feels like an event. Agree about it not being in your face which is what I love about it.

Plus the rock solid residuals.

[Andyg]

Thanks for all your comments chaps - and for all the other suggestions. All very much appreciated. I’ve been back today just to try out the kids in the back of the 997 Targa, and I have to say I was somewhat pleasantly surprised. Granted, it’s not the most spacious thing in the world, but my two fitted in there much better than I was expecting. I am 6ft 4, and even with the drivers seat comfortably back where I’d need it to be I would have no worries about putting the little ones in the back for an hour or so. The cabriolet was a different story. That really did look quite uncomfortable, mainly because the back “seats” are bolt upright.
I should have added in my first post that I’m not really looking for a 4 seater per se, I disagree with Jeremy Clarkson on pretty much everything, but he was correct when he said that the only man ever to look good in a 4 seat convertible was Adolf Hitler. I would class the 911 as a 2+2, which in my opinion (different to that of others I suppose) should be fine to chuck the kids into for a trip to the seaside once in a while.
All of this is slightly irrelevant now - the Mrs came with me as well as the kids and the 987 is firmly off the menu......
Now looking for a classic air cooled!


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Now you are talking. Classic Air Cooled is the way to go if you want a true 911. The roar of the engine, the smell of oil, the fact that they are tiny compared with the later lardy Air cooled versions.

My own 911 is a 964 (the last of the air cooled with round headlights). So good that it’s the base model used by Singer and most other retro modders. The 3.6 Turbo model was the one seen in Bad Boys and the standard Carrera model featured in Atomic Blond. Ironic. Lots of flavours - coupes, targa and convertible, 2 types of turbos, plus wide and narrow bodies, but manuals over the tips are the best option.

If this ticks the boxes, then let me know and I can help especially in the what to look for, running costs, possible problems, modifications, etc. The problem is that you will struggle to find a nice Carrera 2/4 Coupe Manual (the best one to get) for less than £50k. If you fancy an RS then anything over 150k and a nice 3.6 Turbo will cost you north of 200k.

Alternatives are the slightly earlier 3.2 (but make sure it has the 5 speed gear box) or the latter 993 (which can be found with a 6 speed box), but only a face a mother can love

If you are ever down in Wiltshire I will be happy to take you for a ride.

[Pretzel]

Alternatives are the slightly earlier 3.2 (but make sure it has the 5 speed gear box) or the latter 993 (which can be found with a 6 speed box), but only a face a mother can love

Objection.

[Padders]

Objection.

Exactly. Only a 964 owner would state something so inherently wrong lol.

[Holsterman]

My own 911 is a 964 (the last of the air cooled with round headlights). So good that it’s the base model used by Singer and most other retro modders. The 3.6 Turbo model was the one seen ...blah blah.

The 964 3.6L turbo is a second slower to 60, and 4 (four!) seconds slower to 100 than my NA 3.4L 981 Cayman GTS. It's a slow old thing, and even the Singer version would be far slower round a track because you have to enter corners slower in a 911.

For nostalgic poseurs, IMO.

[Holsterman]

a 996 GT3

Track battle!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTv1iNB9gJA

[Andyg]

Objection.

, but perhaps explains why Porsche reverted back to round headlights.

Horses for courses at the end of the day.

[Andyg]

The 964 3.6L turbo is a second slower to 60, and 4 (four!) seconds slower to 100 than my NA 3.4L 981 Cayman GTS. It's a slow old thing, and even the Singer version would be far slower round a track because you have to enter corners slower in a 911.

For nostalgic poseurs, IMO.

Yep, built between 1992/4 some 27 odd years older, no flappy paddle gearbox, not driver aids (other than ABS and Power Steering), not ceramic brakes, etc, etc. A bit like saying the Ferrari 250 GTO is crap compared with a new Fiat 500 Arbath.

And your point is what?

As for a Singer. It’s a custom made, hand built, Uber exclusive motor, powered by a handmade 4lt engine built by Cosworth, all of which costs about 4 times the price of a Gayman (sorry Cayman) . The Singer is rear engine, air cooled and the Cayman isn’t. End of

But if we are trying to play top trumps, how would your new 981 compare with the new GT2 RS.

[wileeeeeey]

I think you just lost top trumps by using the term 'Gaymen'.

[slever]

I’ve had three 911s - a 997.1. 997.2 and currently drive a 991.1. Except for two Panamera’s I always end up going back to a 911. I tried a BMW M5 (back in a Porsche after six months) and a Jaguar F-Type (back in a Porsche after 12 months). I squeezed a family of three with luggage in my 997.2 and drove to France for a holiday - it was tight but we did it and it was brilliant.

Just do it. If you don’t like it they hold their value so you’ll always return most of the value on resale. Don’t rule out a used Panamera if it’s room you want, fantastic interiors and great value used - just make sure it’s petrol not diesel - they eat motorways.

Both are easy to own reasonable to run if you use a good specialist for maintenance and servicing. A is 991 is surprisingly economical as well, much more so than 997s.

I can recommend Dove House in Northamptonshire. I’ve bought six cars from them and they are very good - ask for Nick.

Buy it, Enjoy it, it will make you smile every day.
Sean.

[slever]

Oh, and don’t forget to post a picture when you’ve got it. This is my bog-standard 991.1 Carrera 2 I bought a couple of months ago. Feels like it’s made of granite after a flimsy F-Type.