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Thread: When stocks rebound, WHERE best to invest?

  1. #1651
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    Thats a crazy move by TUI today....


  2. #1652
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    It’s all crazy.

    I’m seriously thinking this might be the time to bail out fully into cash/gold.

    Over the last 10 days I have been working with 3 clients on post-COVID business plans.

    These are £2m to £5m companies, good growth SMEs that are a huge parts of the UK economic landscape.

    All are planning redundancies and staff wage cuts, these are businesses that were in rude health prior to COVID.

    This is just a sample of 3, many organisations must be in the same position.

    All the rolls up to a big economic turn down. This will also impact large corporations.

    I just can’t fathom the continued recovery in markets.

    There seems to be no connection between business outlook and share price.

  3. #1653
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    Móntenlos final point, spot on imho. Unreality.

  4. #1654
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    J D Sports

    - 18 Mar 20 = 293p

    - today = 622 pence

  5. #1655
    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    Móntenlos final point, spot on imho. Unreality.
    Agreed - BUT was there ever a correlation ? It’s a massive casino as far as I can see with some shares in real companies now being traded like crypto

    90% of My SIPP remains in equities and funds - some real pain on decent holdings in proper companies like Greggs; some astonishing gains (over 100% in 7 weeks) on ITM power ..... however my SIPP is only a modest part of my other investments which are mainly a spread of commercial property. So I’ve always treated the SIPP as the riskier play in my retirement planning.

    As crazy as the market is I just can’t sell the lot. Simply what else would you put your money into at the moment ? And I think that is why the casino still keeps on going. Irrational I know.



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  6. #1656
    Lot of comments saying its crazy times and stuff. Well I'm not I'm not in finance and know very little about it.

    But is it really THAT crazy? We know whats causing the downturn, we didn't really understand what was happening in 2008, very complex things were happening. And society has accepted the cost of dealing with the virus is a downturn, meaning governments have aot more latitude in dealing with things.

    And a good company 3 months ago is still a good company now, there are still well run companies that will thrive and offer very good returns. Plus all the easy money and low interest rates.

    Is it really that crazy a time to investing?

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  7. #1657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daveya. View Post

    And a good company 3 months ago is still a good company now, there are still well run companies that will thrive and offer very good returns. Plus all the easy money and low interest rates.
    True, the companies have not changed but their markets have, one construction, one international education and one leisure.

    One thing is that they have all had nice interest free bank loans for substantial sums.

    There will be a recovery but it won’t be the instant bounce back the markets suggest. Maybe it’s all priced in. I don’t know.

    Seems that just like with the subprime crisis it sometimes takes a while for the markets to smell the coffee.

  8. #1658
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Bet confirmed.

    31st August noon, I put a reminder into the calendar.
    Selling what you said was at best a 10/1 shot for even money — you’d make a fantastic bookie Raffe!!

  9. #1659
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    Quote Originally Posted by dandanthewatchman View Post
    Agreed - BUT was there ever a correlation ? It’s a massive casino as far as I can see with some shares in real companies now being traded like crypto

    90% of My SIPP remains in equities and funds - some real pain on decent holdings in proper companies like Greggs; some astonishing gains (over 100% in 7 weeks) on ITM power ..... however my SIPP is only a modest part of my other investments which are mainly a spread of commercial property. So I’ve always treated the SIPP as the riskier play in my retirement planning.

    As crazy as the market is I just can’t sell the lot. Simply what else would you put your money into at the moment ? And I think that is why the casino still keeps on going. Irrational I know.



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    Tbh I think I would be more worried about a commercial property portfolio.

  10. #1660
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    Selling what you said was at best a 10/1 shot for even money — you’d make a fantastic bookie Raffe!!
    Know any more customers? I pay 10% commission.

  11. #1661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Tbh I think I would be more worried about a commercial property portfolio.
    This.

  12. #1662
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Tbh I think I would be more worried about a commercial property portfolio.
    Each to their own. Guess it is about sticking to what you know. Been dealing with commercial property for 30 years. Fair mix including some industrial with good tenants, good locations and potential change of uses. It’s what I know - pays a real return and one day capital values may rise. For example my small portfolio of McColls convenience stores have 20 year leases, no break clauses, fixed uplifts. Paying me 9% yield. Haven’t missed a beat in lockdown.

    Take that any day over some stock exchange gambling or ‘star’ fund managers. I do a bit of that just for the lottery ticket equivalent of investing.

    Property rarely goes to zero ...... I did a fair bit of playing with shares in the dot com boom. I can tell you what going to zero feels like !!


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  13. #1663
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    Lot to be said for solid and steady, especially times like this.

  14. #1664
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    20 years no breaks. Who is negotiating on their behalf or are the deals on their side so good it's worth it?!

    Correct re property never going to zero too. Can go to repossession but that it essentially a margin call with a terrible lingering credit score. Negative equity to one side anyway.
    Last edited by wileeeeeey; 27th May 2020 at 00:24.

  15. #1665
    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    20 years no breaks. Who is negotiating on their behalf or are the deals on the side so good it's worth it?!

    Correct re property never going to zero too. Can go to repossession but that it essentially a margin call with a terrible lingering credit score. Negative equity to one side anyway.
    They’ve been doing sales and leasebacks for years .... it’s part of their business. They know what they are doing as make chunks of capital trading off their covenant strength.

    Not sure what you mean by deals on the side. Maybe you’ve little experience of dealing with quoted companies.


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  16. #1666
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    Well despite the bonanza elsewhere somehow my portfolio declined 1% today. I'm heavy on Astrazeneca so that's the main reason

  17. #1667
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    Quote Originally Posted by dandanthewatchman View Post
    They've been doing sales and leasebacks for years .... it’s part of their business. They know what they are doing as make chunks of capital trading off their covenant strength.

    Not sure what you mean by deals on the side. Maybe you've little experience of dealing with quoted companies.
    Sorry, was meant to be *their side as no doubt they are being advised on it. Sale and leaseback very popular the last few years.

  18. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by dandanthewatchman View Post
    They’ve been doing sales and leasebacks for years .... it’s part of their business. They know what they are doing as make chunks of capital trading off their covenant strength.

    Not sure what you mean by deals on the side. Maybe you’ve little experience of dealing with quoted companies.


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    I’ve not seen these before, doesn’t look a good long term strategy for the business.

    I guess they just want some short term cash, but you only get to sell your assets once.

  19. #1669
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    TUI up 53% yesterday and another 25% so far today. Wow.

  20. #1670
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    Everyone thinks it’s over and normality it just around the corner.

  21. #1671

  22. #1672
    Exactly as I have been reading for the last few weeks - the institutional investors are pulling out and sitting in cash, individual investors - one theory is that US citizens have been using their government cheques to invest are piling in. Someone is going to be on the wrong side of the deal and be destroyed - the economic reality doesn't fit the market position..

  23. #1673
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    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    Exactly as I have been reading for the last few weeks - the institutional investors are pulling out and sitting in cash, individual investors - one theory is that US citizens have been using their government cheques to invest are piling in. Someone is going to be on the wrong side of the deal and be destroyed - the economic reality doesn't fit the market position..
    Interesting comment although this rally is global not just US.

    I often wondered how much retail investors represent in terms of ownership compared with institutional investors and funds under management. Anyone know?

  24. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    Exactly as I have been reading for the last few weeks - the institutional investors are pulling out and sitting in cash, individual investors - one theory is that US citizens have been using their government cheques to invest are piling in. Someone is going to be on the wrong side of the deal and be destroyed - the economic reality doesn't fit the market position..
    Good theory and helps explain the run we are seeing.

  25. #1675
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    Quote Originally Posted by miguelh34 View Post
    Yep that is the new trend. Also I think there is the questioning of a degree value . 80% of all UK degree's are either a First or a 2/1
    The other question for UK students at least is tuition fees and living expenses. Back in my day, there were no tuition fees and there were maintenance grants from the council. Now tuition fees are ca. £9k per year. It's not unreasonable to think that a three year degree could leave you with £50k worth of debt afterwards that you need to pay back. Add on the fact that you're not even allowed in a lecture hall now and most lecturers don't have time to speak to you individually, then you wonder whether it's worth it.

  26. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Interesting comment although this rally is global not just US.

    I often wondered how much retail investors represent in terms of ownership compared with institutional investors and funds under management. Anyone know?
    An excellent question, but is it possible to ever find the answer?

  27. #1677
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    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    one theory is that US citizens have been using their government cheques to invest are piling in.
    Was this theory by the same guy that theorised crypto's fall from grace was because of the chinese new year and mass migration.

  28. #1678
    Things going backwards!!

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  29. #1679
    Quote Originally Posted by Daveya. View Post
    Things going backwards!!

    Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk
    CNBC mostly a bunch of shills . Anybody watch Andrew Ross Sorkins Arugment With Joe Kernen today?


    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a-...nen-2020-05-27

  30. #1680
    Going back up!

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  31. #1681
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    For the 2nd straight day I am down by over 1% lol. Another crash and burn with my AstraZeneca holding (down 4% today, 3.8% yesterday) - I only bought it for the near certainty that the Oxford vaccine would work but the market doubts around the vaccine are kicking in. Trial results for final phase due next month so I'll either be +80% or -50%!!!

  32. #1682
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    For the 2nd straight day I am down by over 1% lol. Another crash and burn with my AstraZeneca holding (down 4% today, 3.8% yesterday) - I only bought it for the near certainty that the Oxford vaccine would work but the market doubts around the vaccine are kicking in. Trial results for final phase due next month so I'll either be +80% or -50%!!!
    1,000 quid it's not going to work?

  33. #1683
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    I don’t think the vaccine will affect share price too much as whichever company comes up with the winning potion will, I expect, be forced to release the data and not make a commercial profit from it.

    It’ll be for the greater good of humanity, not for profit of shareholders.

  34. #1684
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    I don’t think the vaccine will affect share price too much as whichever company comes up with the winning potion will, I expect, be forced to release the data and not make a commercial profit from it.

    It’ll be for the greater good of humanity, not for profit of shareholders.
    This.

    No profit in it unless one of the American projects prevails and they auction it off to the highest bidder. Not even the Chinese would do that.

  35. #1685
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    I don’t think the vaccine will affect share price too much as whichever company comes up with the winning potion will, I expect, be forced to release the data and not make a commercial profit from it.

    It’ll be for the greater good of humanity, not for profit of shareholders.
    Agreed but most investors aren't as smart as you in terms of realising that else the market wouldn't be at the level it is

  36. #1686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    1,000 quid it's not going to work?
    Nope I won't take that bet, worst case AZN dividend yield is still pretty decent and I'll hold it for 20 years

  37. #1687
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    Looks like Barclays has worked out for me, made enough to get myself a new watch already.

  38. #1688

  39. #1689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Drago View Post
    Looks like Barclays has worked out for me, made enough to get myself a new watch already.
    Nice!

  40. #1690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Drago View Post
    Looks like Barclays has worked out for me, made enough to get myself a new watch already.
    I suppose Barclays got a new watch from their fees as well...
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  41. #1691
    The question is , how high will the US market climb ? (surely the quickest market rally in history)

    Market now 10% off its precov19 highest price & the index prices are now back to the start of winter 19, when the economy was doing exceptionally well.
    Last edited by jonny; 28th May 2020 at 19:40.

  42. #1692
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    Face it:


    The Lobotomy Paradigm™ - by Ken Veksler

    So let’s get one thing straight; the market has a price and that price clears all day, every day.

    This makes it the correct price for here and now. This price also happens to reflect what the ‘here and now’ actually is as far as the market believes it to be. The fact that you, me, my neighbour’s dog and his uncle’s sister happen to disagree only means that we are wrong and the market is right. The market is always right. That’s why the price clears.

    On the notion of the ‘here and now’ what you need to do is actually throw out all your textbooks, CFA designations, models et al and accept the very basic fact that the SPX is as much about ‘future earnings’ as I am about being a morally upright citizen. In short, neither of those things is true. More to the point, the SPX has come to signify a measure of risk willingness/aversion. It is the leader of sentiment and thus driver of most (if not in fact, all) asset classes. You’ve heard me utter that it’s all one trade, well it is, and it’s invariably led by the Spooz.

    Now that I’ve cleared that up for you, let me explain the term I’ve coined; The Lobotomy Paradigm™

    In the simplest of forms what I’m referring to is the fact that very little matters. The fact that the market is not the economy. The fact that the prevailing narrative doing the rounds now is ‘how could we be only 10% off all time highs when the US has north of 20mio unemployed, nations and industries are in varying states of complete shutdown etc etc etc and things will simply never be the same’.

    Yeah, I hear all those concerns and likely even (somewhat) share a few of them myself, but guess what; there’s a price and that price clears. All day. Every day. There’s no point trying to skate to where you think the puck will or should be, skate in sweeping circles around where the puck is RIGHT NOW.

    I’ve written before that in the absence of a severe second wave of Covid 19 (mainly in the US) we’re very unlikely to subvert the current direction of travel of the Spooz and subsequently, risk. Where we are now has been all but entirely underpinned by historic amounts of fiscal and monetary stimulus and frankly, human nature. Markets reflect their participants, and their participants ultimately believe that despite setbacks such as this pandemic, things will be ok. The pace of reversion to ‘ok’ might falter here and there but ultimately we’ll get there. If you believe that, why would you not want to own Spooz? Demonstrating and reinforcing that very point are diminishing rates of R and global easing of thus far stringent lockdown measures.

    All the factors that people worry about; inflation, systemic market failures, diminishing economic fundamentals etc are valid concerns and worthy of attention and discussion. But mainly as cocktail party chit chat. The market doesn’t care. The sooner we acknowledge this and the sooner we realise that you need to deal with the here and now, the sooner you can avail yourself of such burden and embrace The Lobotomy Paradigm™

    More to come in the following days but all this is to say that getting too caught up in highbrow ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda, didn’t’ macro will serve your p/l very little benefit…

    As always, helmets on and good luck out there.

    LINKY

  43. #1693
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny View Post
    The question is , how high will the US market climb ? (surely the quickest market rally in history)

    Market now 10% off its precov19 highest price & the index prices are now back to the start of winter 19, when the economy was doing exceptionally well.
    The higher they climb, the further they have to fall.

  44. #1694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Face it:


    The Lobotomy Paradigm™ - by Ken Veksler

    So let’s get one thing straight; the market has a price and that price clears all day, every day.

    This makes it the correct price for here and now. This price also happens to reflect what the ‘here and now’ actually is as far as the market believes it to be. The fact that you, me, my neighbour’s dog and his uncle’s sister happen to disagree only means that we are wrong and the market is right. The market is always right. That’s why the price clears.

    On the notion of the ‘here and now’ what you need to do is actually throw out all your textbooks, CFA designations, models et al and accept the very basic fact that the SPX is as much about ‘future earnings’ as I am about being a morally upright citizen. In short, neither of those things is true. More to the point, the SPX has come to signify a measure of risk willingness/aversion. It is the leader of sentiment and thus driver of most (if not in fact, all) asset classes. You’ve heard me utter that it’s all one trade, well it is, and it’s invariably led by the Spooz.

    Now that I’ve cleared that up for you, let me explain the term I’ve coined; The Lobotomy Paradigm™

    In the simplest of forms what I’m referring to is the fact that very little matters. The fact that the market is not the economy. The fact that the prevailing narrative doing the rounds now is ‘how could we be only 10% off all time highs when the US has north of 20mio unemployed, nations and industries are in varying states of complete shutdown etc etc etc and things will simply never be the same’.

    Yeah, I hear all those concerns and likely even (somewhat) share a few of them myself, but guess what; there’s a price and that price clears. All day. Every day. There’s no point trying to skate to where you think the puck will or should be, skate in sweeping circles around where the puck is RIGHT NOW.

    I’ve written before that in the absence of a severe second wave of Covid 19 (mainly in the US) we’re very unlikely to subvert the current direction of travel of the Spooz and subsequently, risk. Where we are now has been all but entirely underpinned by historic amounts of fiscal and monetary stimulus and frankly, human nature. Markets reflect their participants, and their participants ultimately believe that despite setbacks such as this pandemic, things will be ok. The pace of reversion to ‘ok’ might falter here and there but ultimately we’ll get there. If you believe that, why would you not want to own Spooz? Demonstrating and reinforcing that very point are diminishing rates of R and global easing of thus far stringent lockdown measures.

    All the factors that people worry about; inflation, systemic market failures, diminishing economic fundamentals etc are valid concerns and worthy of attention and discussion. But mainly as cocktail party chit chat. The market doesn’t care. The sooner we acknowledge this and the sooner we realise that you need to deal with the here and now, the sooner you can avail yourself of such burden and embrace The Lobotomy Paradigm™

    More to come in the following days but all this is to say that getting too caught up in highbrow ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda, didn’t’ macro will serve your p/l very little benefit…

    As always, helmets on and good luck out there.

    LINKY
    An asset class that requires a lobotomy for ownership, becoming increasingly less attractive.

  45. #1695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    An asset class that requires a lobotomy for ownership, becoming increasingly less attractive.
    I had to google a lot of the terms in that article and some of it seems like its written in a foreign language to me. This definitely means I should step away from investing in anything.

  46. #1696
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    The start of the fall, "Rolls-Royce downgraded to junk by S&P" ?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft....2-33100ca67a4b

  47. #1697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glitterati View Post
    Yes, absolutely correct. Inflation will work wonders for equities and stagnant economies, as well this huge new round of QE.. What Japan and Europe would have given for some inflation over the past few years ! And yes, bond defaults is also a serious risk.

    Not recommendations by any means, but I'm still buying long term themes. Have ridden the recovery wave of technology, infrastructure and healthcare sectors globally in recent weeks. Have been loading up on housebuilders in UK for last fortnight as hugely oversold. On the back burner, trying to assess the recovery potential of travel/leisure (Carnival Cruises, Airlines, TUI etc. and places like Cineworld). That's the next wave though or maybe even the one after that, so I have some time yet.

    It's the second wave of infection that is spooking markets currently. This isn't going away any time soon. Analysts have no clue where company earnings will land, so it's a huge casino currently I'm afraid!
    Well spotted the posters who noticed the move in TUI. Added quite a chunk into client portfolios about a month ago when I wrote this, along with airlines, Carnival and very pleased with Cineworld in particular this week. Anyone would think I do this for a living.............oh wait, I do !!

    And as for that Lobotomy Paradigm, it's a million per cent correct and is one of the more important foundations to how I approach markets (along with positive sector/stock momentum). It's really not difficult, it's all of the so-called intelligent opinions out there who make you think it is.
    Last edited by Glitterati; 29th May 2020 at 08:18.

  48. #1698
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    I was reading a few bullish articles Wednesday that got me worried about my heavy cash position. After seeing a couple new strong analyst reports on Target, I decided to buy 400 shares Thursday @ about $118. I worked at the Target HQ in finance 40+ years ago and have a lot of respect for their competence. Time will tell...

  49. #1699
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    Right now I’m still happy to be heavily in cash. The potential upside is perhaps 10% from current levels. The downside... who knows.

    I’m happy to sit out until we see the Q2 figures hit and the true unemployment rate.

    Also, at a global level yesterday was a record day for new virus cases. It’s far from over.

  50. #1700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Right now I’m still happy to be heavily in cash. The potential upside is perhaps 10% from current levels. The downside... who knows.

    I’m happy to sit out until we see the Q2 figures hit and the true unemployment rate.

    Also, at a global level yesterday was a record day for new virus cases. It’s far from over.
    Heavy cash too and agree there is limited upside from here. Well done on those who traded at lows and made killings though.

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