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Thread: Rolex service estimate - advice needed - sold a poor/partially counterfeit watch?

  1. #1

    Rolex service estimate - advice needed - sold a poor/partially counterfeit watch?

    Hi guys,

    Some of you may have seen my last thread about the wait time for servicing for a 70s Rolex. I just heard back from the AD with the estimate for necessary work and I’m pretty shocked to say the least, if not totally gutted. I’d be grateful for some advice as to what to do.

    As a bit of background, I bought the watch (1970s Air King) for my wife’s birthday in 2016. The watch came from a well-known used dealer. About a month or so after we bought it, it was losing time (minutes per day) so we returned it and the dealer serviced it. After the service, it ran better but has never kept time like I'd expect. However, the watch has had similar timing problems for a long time and I finally persuaded my wife to get it serviced by Rolex this time – I also wanted to get Rolex service papers with it as it didn’t come with the original papers when we bought it.

    I dropped the watch off with a Rolex AD the other week. Last night, I got an email from the AD listing the necessary works, which are as follows:

    Necessary Intervention(s):
    1. Case complete, existing is corroded: £1350.00
    2. Movement, existing is moisture damaged beyond repair: £2365.00
    3. Bracelet, existing is not of Rolex manufacture: £850.00
    4. Dial including hands, existing is damaged: £386.00

    Total: £4951.00

    We were expecting to hear back that the watch might need a new crystal, a polish etc. but this is unbelievable.

    The watch is from around 1975 so I appreciate that there would be some wear and tear. Visually at least as far as we can see, we don’t think there’s anything wrong with the case or the dial and hands (they’re gold and look quite cool/unusual). I don’t know if this is Rolex being overly cautious?

    In relation to the movement, my wife is pretty manic about not getting it wet (mostly brought about by me telling her never to get it wet given its age), so takes it off when washing hands and has never submerged it or anything close to that. So I don’t really understand how it can be moisture damaged beyond repair. Could Rolex be being similarly cautious about the movement?

    The thing that bothers me most (strangely given it’s one of the least expensive parts on the list) is that the watch has a non-Rolex bracelet. The bracelet is branded Rolex so is obviously counterfeit based on the above. Given where the watch came from, I didn’t even think to look at the bracelet in detail to be honest, it was branded Rolex and I think we were right to assume it would be genuine.

    I will take this up with the dealer shortly, but I wanted to get your views as to whether Rolex will return the watch to us in its ‘original’ condition, especially with the counterfeit bracelet? Or are they going to insist on having the work done before they send it back? I’ve never been in this position before so am not sure what to expect. Needless to say, paying £4,951 for this is just not an option.

    I’d appreciate your advice.

    Thank you in advance.

  2. #2
    Master
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    I wouldn't even consider it at that price you could buy another watch for that.

    I would buy this instead, it looks lovely to me and I am not even a Rolex fan.

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...-Mid-Size-31mm

  3. #3
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    Counterfeit bracelet and minutes off after only month or so after purchase..sounds like a very bad dealer. Name and shame please

  4. #4
    Master woodacre1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ac11111 View Post
    Counterfeit bracelet and minutes off after only month or so after purchase..sounds like a very bad dealer. Name and shame please
    Agree completely I’d be interested in k owing who and would certainly have reservations in using them.


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  5. #5
    Master colin t's Avatar
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    My interpretation was that the water damage was historic, and it has been made to function (albeit inadequately) at some point before it came into your ownership.

  6. #6
    Master colin t's Avatar
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    I, too, would be interested to hear where you purchased it.

  7. #7
    thank you for the replies so far gents.

    Colin T - sadly that's how I'm thinking too, we seem to have been given a massive lemon.

    I'm about to speak with the dealer and hopefully arrange some sort of resolution. I'd prefer to get a rounded picture of how they deal with it before I mention any names.

  8. #8
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Frankly, the issue seems to be more about the state of the watch you were sold than it does about Rolex service prices. I'm amend the thread title (and probably revert to the dealer from whom you bought it).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Frankly, the issue seems to be more about the state of the watch you were sold than it does about Rolex service prices. I'm amend the thread title (and probably revert to the dealer from whom you bought it).
    Updated. And I'm about to contact the dealer.

  10. #10
    Master RAFF's Avatar
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    This isn’t a quote for a service, it’s a quote for a whole new watch! I’d just get a new one if it had no sentimental value. Can’t say I’m at all shocked by the cost due to the work listed that’s needed.


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  11. #11
    Perhaps the water/ movement damage has occurred post regulation/ initial service for timekeeping? That’ll be difficult to prove one way or the other.

    No excuses from the dealer on the bracelet, they should make good on that but will probably claim it was original when they sold it... do you have to original sales pics for back up?
    I’d be approaching the well respected independents known on here.

  12. #12
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    Good luck with the dealer. However, I can see the dealer saying it was okay when it left the shop in 2016, and therefore not down to them.

  13. #13
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Wow, sorry to hear this, but as others have said if you were going to spend that kind of money you might as well buy another watch.

    Definately name the dealer, shows the risks involved when we all look at those lovely watches on line.

  14. #14
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    I'd ask the dealer for a full refund on the watch, or take it further if no joy from them. And name them online if they don't give a refund. They deceived you when they sold it, and if they claim ignorance then they are still at fault.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  15. #15
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    Just to play devils advocate here for a second... four years have passed. Not four weeks or months. I’m not saying the dealer is without blame here but that’s a long period of time for a second hand sale of a vintage watch.

  16. #16
    Thanks for all the input guys, it pretty much confirms what I thought. I expect if I want to get it back from Rolex, it will be without the bracelet, does that sound right?

    Peck - I wonder if the dealer may try and say something like that and we're prepared to take things further if need be - it seems pretty clear we've been sold a watch in poor condition. In any event, no passage of time can transform a real Rolex bracelet into a fake one.

    Fortunately, I'm very anal about organisation so have the receipts, emails, website listing saved, photographs from the listing individually saved and the photos we took for insurance purposes after the purchase.

    I've contacted the dealer and am waiting to see what they intend to do about it all.

  17. #17
    Master PhilipK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansblix2001 View Post
    1. Case complete, existing is corroded: £1350.00
    2. Movement, existing is moisture damaged beyond repair: £2365.00
    3. Bracelet, existing is not of Rolex manufacture: £850.00
    4. Dial including hands, existing is damaged: £386.00
    If they did replace the case, the movement, the bracelet, the dial and the hands, what exactly would be left of the original watch?

  18. #18
    Craftsman AKM's Avatar
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    I wonder if the whole bracelet is counterfeit or whether it's a mixture of parts - they say its 'not of their manufacture' but some bits of it might be genuine, e.g. clasp added to aftermarket bracelet, thus making it harder to spot.

    I haven't seen the watch and this is a terrible situation to find oneself in - I hope the dealer does the honourable thing.

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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipK View Post
    If they did replace the case, the movement, the bracelet, the dial and the hands, what exactly would be left of the original watch?
    Crystal 😄

  20. #20
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    maybe he didn't know it was a fake bracelet after all it fooled you.

    Surely after 4 years he cant be held responsible for a vintage movement not working.

  21. #21
    Master woodacre1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwest76 View Post
    maybe he didn't know it was a fake bracelet after all it fooled you.

    Surely after 4 years he cant be held responsible for a vintage movement not working.
    Maybe not, but after 4 years should still be accountable for the fake bracelet. And should at very least resolve that issue.


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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansblix2001 View Post
    Thanks for all the input guys, it pretty much confirms what I thought. I expect if I want to get it back from Rolex, it will be without the bracelet, does that sound right?

    It may be a fake bracelet, but it's you property, I'm not sure that Rolex havethe auhority to confiscate your property - fake or not.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by klunk View Post
    It may be a fake bracelet, but it's you property, I'm not sure that Rolex havethe auhority to confiscate your property - fake or not.
    They will erase all Rolex stampings and associated marks then return the bracelet.



    Unless they have changed their policy and refuse to return now.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by klunk View Post
    It may be a fake bracelet, but it's you property, I'm not sure that Rolex havethe auhority to confiscate your property - fake or not.
    Beyond that it is evidence of the commission of a crime. I never understood how a company gets away with destroying masses of evidence and suspect they don;t with the story being blown out of all proportion to a single of rare incident. After all 'Rolex destroyed the watch right in front of me' is either the AD acting unilaterally or Rolex inviting the 'customer' to their repair facility, expenses, paid to hit a watch with a hammer. Unlikely.

    If I found myself in this position I'd be highly unhappy but can't really see what the owner can do, they could try to get compensation from the seller but after 4 years the seller could quite rightly claim no responsibility so much water has passed under the bridge.

    A cautionary tale then - if your vintage watch exhibits issues, get the thing sorted by the factory.

  25. #25
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodacre1983 View Post
    Maybe not, but after 4 years should still be accountable for the fake bracelet. And should at very least resolve that issue.


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    perhaps but there is a difference between deliberately selling a fake bracelet and making a mistake.

  26. #26
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansblix2001 View Post
    I will take this up with the dealer shortly, but I wanted to get your views as to whether Rolex will return the watch to us in its ‘original’ condition, especially with the counterfeit bracelet? Or are they going to insist on having the work done before they send it back?
    Yes, they'll return it as is. It's your property. Even the counterfeit bracelet.

    Obviously the price is absurd. This reminds me of a "please f**k off" quote that many tradespeople might provide: They don't want the job at all so they quote a ridiculously high price with the intention of putting the customer off entirely.

    It seems to me that all you can do is pursue the dealer for the fake bracelet and go to an independent for the rest.

  27. #27
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    How can a bracelet possibly cost £850? Or is it solid gold?

  28. #28
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julian2002 View Post
    After all 'Rolex destroyed the watch right in front of me' is either the AD acting unilaterally or Rolex inviting the 'customer' to their repair facility, expenses, paid to hit a watch with a hammer. Unlikely.
    Indeed. In the UK, at least, stories like this are complete rubbish.

  29. #29
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    How can a bracelet possibly cost £850? Or is it solid gold?
    <chortle> It costs whatever Rolex say it costs! If it was solid gold it was would be way more than that.

  30. #30
    Sorry that you have had such bad luck, but could be that the bracelet just has some non-Rolex links rather than being totally “fake”. These watches were quite cheap to purchase/sell a few years back and as a consequence it was quite common to use non-Rolex replacement parts. The moisture intrusion is likely caused by corrosion on the case back, a sign the watch was probably not well maintained over its lifetime. It is always a risk when buying a 45 year old watch, and I don’t know if this was a low price bargain or if you paid top dollar, but might be best to put it down to experience and use as an excuse to get your wife something else. Another option could be just to send to an independent to see if they can save the movement for you - might be worth considering. All the best.

  31. #31
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    How can a bracelet possibly cost £850? Or is it solid gold?
    A sub bracelet is £1.6k.

  32. #32
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    Tudor black bay bracelet c. £600. So I'd expect Rolex to be 50-100% more.

    This case is a real sore one. Passage of time makes it awkward but it you have all the evidence, including web pics receipts etc then there seems some realistic hope of recompense.

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    Last edited by stefmcd; 13th March 2020 at 18:32.

  33. #33
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    Based on your thread and others it sounds like there’s been a fundamental change in Rolex Service policy to try and squeeze as much profit out of each service as possible. With vintage Rolex I’d have been more inclined to get it serviced by an independent due to Rolex’s previous reputation for replacing parts at will. I’d try some of the trusted repairers in the forum for an objective assessment of the watch before you start to panic, and hopefully they will be able to give a more measured response.

    With regards to the bracelet, post some pics on VRF to get a idea if the entire, or parts of the bracelet’s are original or not. I know some reputable sources have been caught out by dodgy bracelets as the accuracy in the fakes improves. Best of luck, and fingers crossed Rolex have made a mistake.




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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    A sub bracelet is £1.6k.
    In other words, the bracelet itself is worth £20, but the Rolex logo costs £1,580.
    Not a game I'm going to play!

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    In other words, the bracelet itself is worth £20, but the Rolex logo costs £1,580.
    Not a game I'm going to play!
    Have you ever handled a current Submariner bracelet?

    If you think it’s a tatty 20 quid job, you haven’t got a clue.

  36. #36
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis View Post
    Buying a 30 year old watch without documents/service history is potentially a risky business and something I would never contemplate. I would buy brand new from a Rolex AD with a 5 year warranty or alternatively from a trusted member on SC on this forum.

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    Thanks for the tip Henk.

  37. #37
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stelmo01 View Post
    Based on your thread and others it sounds like there’s been a fundamental change in Rolex Service policy to try and squeeze as much profit out of each service as possible. With vintage Rolex I’d have been more inclined to get it serviced by an independent due to Rolex’s previous reputation for replacing parts at will. I’d try some of the trusted repairers in the forum for an objective assessment of the watch before you start to panic, and hopefully they will be able to give a more measured response.

    With regards to the bracelet, post some pics on VRF to get a idea if the entire, or parts of the bracelet’s are original or not. I know some reputable sources have been caught out by dodgy bracelets as the accuracy in the fakes improves. Best of luck, and fingers crossed Rolex have made a mistake.




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    What are you basing your view that. ..."...there’s been a fundamental change in Rolex Service policy to try and squeeze as much profit out of each service as possible..."...on?

    Do you really, honestly, think Rolex would instigate a policy to do unnecessary work on watches to earn a few quid?

    I sent a Rolex in for service before Christmas and the only extra was a new crown. Hardly squeezing as much as possible. And I guarantee there are plenty more people who are perfectly happy with their service as well.

    And don't you think Rolex would know whether a bracelet is genuine or not?
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    Thanks for the tip Henk.



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  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dent99 View Post
    Have you ever handled a current Submariner bracelet?

    If you think it’s a tatty 20 quid job, you haven’t got a clue.
    Don’t take him seriously. Nobody does.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipK View Post
    If they did replace the case, the movement, the bracelet, the dial and the hands, what exactly would be left of the original watch?
    The box! Name and shame the dealer it seems they are selling watches they don’t know enough about.. or counterfeit ones.


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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dent99 View Post
    If you think it’s a tatty 20 quid job, you haven’t got a clue.
    You can buy really good quality bracelets for £20!!! OK, maybe the Rolex bracelet are a fantastic design, made out of super wonderful high grade stainless steel (rather than mere ordinary stainless steel) by a semi-skilled production operative. So it might be worth £50.

  42. #42
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    You can buy really good quality bracelets for £20!!! OK, maybe the Rolex bracelet are a fantastic design, made out of super wonderful high grade stainless steel (rather than mere ordinary stainless steel) by a semi-skilled production operative. So it might be worth £50.
    I’m sure you really enjoy your cheap alternatives.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  43. #43
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    In other words, the bracelet itself is worth £20, but the Rolex logo costs £1,580.
    Not a game I'm going to play!
    You really need to be a Rolex "fan boy" to think that a stainless steel bracelet at £1600 isn't taking the p**s.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

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  44. #44
    Craftsman Russ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Crystal 
    Yep that's all I could come up with as to what would be left of the original watch.

    Thinking out loud here. Any merit in saying to Rolex can I have a new crystal with that please?
    You then have a 1975 new old stock airking for 5k and the watch you started with to thrash out something of a negotiation with the dealer.

    It would be good to hear if others think there is any sense in this?

    Of course this would only work if Rolex returned the original bits. Do they confiscate the parts they "replace" ?
    Last edited by Russ; 14th March 2020 at 10:12.

  45. #45
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    ^^^ I think "Case complete" includes caseback, crystal, bezel, case tube and crown.

    So in effect a new watch and they keep your old one!

  46. #46
    Craftsman Russ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    ^^^ I think "Case complete" includes caseback, crystal, bezel, case tube and crown.

    So in effect a new watch and they keep your old one!
    So any mileage in requesting the old bits to be returned as you are in dispute with a dealer who sold it as a serviceable and genuine watch?

  47. #47
    Master bokbok's Avatar
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    I would be waiting for the dealer to respond it nothing comes of that, then send them in writing signed for, I want the watch replacing or refund and they have 14 days to resolve or on the 15th day will take this to the county court small claims as you have up to 5 years.

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  48. #48
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis View Post
    Buying a 30 year old watch without documents/service history is potentially a risky business and something I would never contemplate. I would buy brand new from a Rolex AD with a 5 year warranty or alternatively from a trusted member on SC on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henk View Post
    I think the old story of buying an elderly mistreated dog with unknown pedigree is likely to give a nasty bite up the arse, as has happened on this occasion. As long as you learn from it and dont make the same mistakes again, all isn't lost!

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  49. #49
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk View Post
    That's a sweeping statement borne of ignorance. If you handled and looked carefully and the fit and finish of the Rolex bracelet you can appreciate it's worth the money. Anything for £20 is a pile of crappy stamped low quality metal.

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    I'm not into fakes or homages but I'd question your logic here, there are factories across the globe that could easily turn out a bracelet of equal quality for substantially less, we all know that with Rolex we pay for the cache of the name.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

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  50. #50
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    The estimate doesn't surprise me at all, sounds like a classic my watch hasn't needed a service in 30 years. Then they get a stupid estimate to repair and sell it on.

    The movement replacement will be because of the case corrosion. If they case has not been cleaned regularly or seals replaced often then the metal gets eaten away by the sweat and skin cheese.

    Then a small amount of moisture will corrode the plating on the movement and make it look dark and ugly. Some independents would still service this movement without issue as it's cosmetic. Rolex won't leave it like this and will therefore replace the movement.

    The dial and hands they will leave them as is if you ask nicely.

    The bracelet, that's bad and you should expect a new one to be paid for by the person you bought it from.

    The case though, did they advise you it was corroded or no longer water resistant when you bought it? If not, they need to cough up for that as they would have known and seen it when inspecting the watch.

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