Reply With QuoteI cant wait to see the results Ken, fantastic that it is being brought back to life!
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
Something a little extreme in many ways. With all this talk of anniversary models from Seiko and limited edition models celebrating the history etc, here we have something from the very beginning. It is a first generation 1961 Seiko Laurel Alpinist and it is believed to be amongst the first sports watches produced by Seiko for mountaineers or the mountain men as they called it back then and it predates the first divers by a good few years.
Finding one at all is like rocking horse droppings and finding one in top condition is near impossible and would not be cheap these days. The positives are that the watch is totally original: the dial, the original text on the dial is complete, the hands, crown and crystal are all good and the case is in very good condition with a super clear case back. The negatives are the condition with heavy pitting and some paint/enamel loss on the dial, a lot of lume loss on the plots and general dirt throughout and the second hand fell off in transit.
Some pictures:
Clearly with a project (sorry, sad I know) like this you have to go into it with a glass half full and look to the positives of what you think can be achieved.
The watch is now with .olli. of this parish who has taken on this challenge and the dial and hands will be going to James Hyman for him to work his magic on them. This is not an overnight thing and will take many months, but that's fine. Both the watch and myself celebrate a 60th birthday next year, so it would be great to be able to wear it then.
Although the dial will be cleaned and the plots relumed, there will still be evidence of pitting although all the dirt and crap will be gone. The alternative would be to have the dial completely cleared and restored from scratch. That could be done, but I think is a step too far as I would rather retain the original Seiko text on the dial and I think you have to remember the aims here, to restore and bring back to life a very rare and historic watch, not to turn it into something that wouldn't look out of place in a watch shop window. So sure it will have battle scars, but cleaned, with restored plots and hands and a perfect crystal and of course running properly this should be a watch that I would be proud to wear.
This is something very different and new for me, instead of buying a watch that you can just pop on the wrist, this is going to be a bit of a journey that has nothing to do with value or box and papers, but is all about the love of the watch for what it is and more importantly what can be done to return it to good health.
As with all the top Watch guys that we use on here there is a queue in the workshop until work commences, but as it does and .olli. updates me on progress I will update on here.
Ken
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 8th March 2020 at 11:25.
I cant wait to see the results Ken, fantastic that it is being brought back to life!
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
Good luck Ken . James has just done a cracking job for me on a 1960s Nivada diver dial , I now just need another set of hands as they were too far gone with rust to be cleaned to my liking .
Looking forward to seeing how this turns out Ken.
You are absolutely right to keep the dial original on such an historic watch.
I thought I had seen most vintage Seikos but I've never seen one of those.
Cheers,
Neil.
I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how this one pans out. I think your approach with the dial is absolutely spot on; it would be criminal to attempt a redial and whatever patina remains evident is simply part of the watch. I'm not sure if you're in front or behind me in the queue but I'd happily see this one finished before my two.
Last edited by Carlton-Browne; 8th March 2020 at 16:36.
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Thanks guys. The idea of stripping the dial and having it restored by skilled dial restorers was an option, but a step too far. Hopefully a good clean and James' relume will be enough especially when viewed through a lovely clear crystal will make up for any of the residual damage on the dial.
It's interesting that we have discussed the availability of skilled watch repairers and restorers on here and clearly if you are thinking of having any of this kind of work done it certainly won't be done in a hurry. My three Red Alpinists are currently in an 16/18 week queue to have a movement service and I think this will be something similar before work commences properly. We have even seen some of these guys refusing to take on new work due to backlogs, so I am just grateful that my watches are where they are and will be sorted in due course.
Wise words Ken , got my Constellation and seamaster 30 back from Simon Freese a couple of weeks ago. I want him to do a resto on a Uweco chrono for me and a little Marvin , both cases need plating with the Marvin needing lug repairs . No chance at the moment fully booked for at least a couple of months.
Proper watch for the connoisseur, and being treated with the respect it deserves.
Kudos, Ken!
Edit:
Funnily enough, I was working on one of my vintage watches today, the cannon pinion needed 'nipping in' as the hands recently stopped moving.
Stripped off the dial and sorted the cannon pinion, then gave the dial and hands a bit of a clean, then a touch of the Cape Cod to the case.
All back together now and working fine over the last 5 hours or so.
Hope you don't mind the hijack Ken, here she is.
Last edited by bobbee; 8th March 2020 at 18:06.
Good luck Ken, your way forward rationale is the right thing.
Lovely little classic which is getting the care it deserves. Look forward to seeing how the project progresses. All the best
Congratulations Ken, you've been after one of these for a while so it's good to see you've found one now.
The watch has now been stripped and examined and below are Olivers observations:
*****
"The movement is definitely in need of a service, it is very dirty, and I could barely get a trace on the timegrapher, but nothing that cannot be sorted!
Upon stripping and inspecting the movement, I can confirm there are quite a few issues, the movement is very tired and has clearly not been serviced regularly. Main issues are:
Barrel bridge hole very worn - this will need rebushing. Leaving as is would result in significant power loss from barrel to escapement, and eventually intermittent stoppages when the barrel binds with the centre wheel.
Small wear pips on the balance end stones jewels, this will affect amplitude, and performance of the watch.
Regulator pin broken - it also looks like the regulator boot has been altered, or is possibly not original.
Shellac holding the pallet jewels is aged and cracked (fragments found in the movement) – would need to be consolidated / fresh shellac applied to avoid risk of loosened pallet jewels in the future.
On the plus side, the train wheels pivots are in good condition, testament to the build quality of vintage seikos."
*****
Some photos courtesy of Oliver:
The movement and case does look a little dirty
We finally get to see the dial without the crystal obscuring it
And after an initial cleaning
The crown is in a poor state with the gasket totally perished
A few pics of some of the issues
And ready for a clean
So where do we go from here. The issues in the movement highlighted above need addressing and given that the movement is 59 years old you cannot simply buy replacement parts. Oliver is going to source a donor movement and make good the original movement in the Alpinist with the parts as necessary taken from the donor movement. I think of it like going to a scrap yard to source parts when restoring an old car. Simplistic perhaps, but there are similarities.
The crystal was not original and was glued in place. This will be removed and replaced with a new domed acrylic crystal that actually fits the case.
The crown is interesting. It can be repaired and put back, but there is a compromise on waterproofing the watch. However, given that this watch is never going to go near water it isn't really an issue as such. A new crown would offer added waterproofing protection. If Oliver can find an identical replacement we will consider using it, but at present I am aiming to put the original one back on.
The dial and hands are due to go to James Hyman for further cleaning and reluming. We will also ask James opinion on gently touching up a few of the scratches on the outer dial that are showing a red colour, presumably the dial undercoat. I will await James thoughts on this.
So there we have it and this thread should be quiet for a while, whilst the work continues.
Will report back
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 12th March 2020 at 11:52.
A lot of work Ken.
Look forward to seeing it finished.
I love those vintage Seikos.
Cheers,
Neil.
As a matter of interest, is this a common Seiko movement or something more exotic?
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Hard one to answer really, I think it was a fairly standard movement in the 60s, but clearly not in use these days. I think at the time it was a standard manual wind movement, nothing overly complicated or Special, but designed to be robust as it was supposed to be a sports watch. Oliver is on the hunt for a donor movement, so fingers crossed the required parts can be lifted from that.Originally Posted by Carlton-Browne
I wonder how many people have read this thread and thought sod that, I'm sticking with new
It’s a fair point but this is a pretty special watch. I’m sure it will be worth the time, effort and money when complete. I’m certainly looking forward to seeing the ‘after’ photos.
I wonder how many people have read this thread and thought sod that, I'm sticking with new
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sod that. I try to keep a spare movement for each of my UGs - Olivier has just taken delivery of an Ebay spare for the next job he's doing for me. In some cases I've been able to do even better...I wonder how many people have read this thread and thought sod that, I'm sticking with new
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Very impressive indeed.
The movement is not rare as such, but certainly less common than post 70s Seiko movements.
It is a Seikosha 17 jewels, no reference on the movement - as always with Seiko there is a degree of cross compatibility with other movements, so several movements from Seiko Laurel or Seiko Marvels could be suitable donors. I have been on much trickier searches before, I am sure we will get there Ken! :)
Following this thread with interest Ken
I’ve had s couple of long term projects over the years which I wish I had photographed and documented properly
This sort of project I find very rewarding so I can feel a search for something interesting coming up- might be a Seiko if I can fathom out which model my father wore in the 60’s
Proper TZ stuff!
Update:
Oliver found an ideal donor watch listed on e-bay and was successful with a last minute bid. A few photos from the original listing. The watch is now on its way over from Japan. I will keep the bracelet if it fits on the Alpinist. It should I think.
James has also examined the dial and his recommendation for lume colour is as per the image below, a dark Yellowish Brown shade. Make a nice change from mint Green
With regards to the Black areas of the dial he recommends that we leave well alone. Any attempted restoration work will be visible and would make things worse. He thinks the new lume and the addition of a new crystal will help tone down the damaged Black areas.
So now we await the arrival of the watch from Japan and for James to work his magic.
Thats good news , will help to speed things along. It seems a shame to rip that Laurel apart, but NEEDs must !
I love that Laurel too!
Big fan of the script dial Seikos.
Cheers,
Neil.
Another update:
James has completed his work on the relume of the hands and dial. I love it, I think he has done a cracking job and those hands will really stand out in front of a Black dial. I am now starting to regard the damage on the Dial as patina
I think the dial will look even better when behind a brand new crystal.
Several people have asked recently who to use for reluming work, based on these results I would recommend James Hyman without hesitation.
In addition, the donor Watch has arrived with Oliver from Japan and skipped through customs with no charges. That is quicker than usual. I thought all the borders were shut, but who knows.
All good stuff
Hopefully won't be long now .
James has completed a watch for me recently and can only agree that his work is excellent !!
Have you seen this?.....
https://www.fratellowatches.com/tbt-...urel-alpinist/
If not should make for a nice read for you.
Thank you, I hadn't seen that. The guy was incredibly lucky and bought an absolute stunner. I wonder when he bought it for only $600. The last fairly decent one I saw was earlier this year and that went for about $2,200. Sometimes these watches are poorly listed and a lot of collectors miss the listing.
Interesting reading the comments at the bottom including the guy who thought the article had only been written so that the author could do a bit of showing off.
I also note that he states 1959, which I think was a year for the Laurel in general, whereas this Alpinist came out in 1961. He made reference to the definite article 'the spring bar' but mustn't have read it.
Penultimate update:
I heard from Oliver today that the Watch is now finished. Below is a copy of his report on what he did to the watch, especially interesting to those who understand such things. It does appear that we hit lucky with the donor watch and Oliver was able to utilise some of the parts that clearly saved him a certain amount of time. His report is as below:
*****
"The service and testing on your watch are now complete, and I am very happy with it.
The donor movement turned out to be in very good condition, so I ended up using it for the following parts:
-Barrel bridge (thus saving on cost of re-bushing the barrel arbour hole)
- Balance cock and regulator
- Pallet fork (thus saving on cost of re-applying shellac on pallet jewels)
- 2 Balance jewels (the ones on your movement had little pips caused by wear -the ones on the donor were flawless)
I also replaced the crystal, and rebuilt the original crown with a new gasket. .
The watch looks completely transformed, while keeping its character and history, a really nice restoration I think.
Performance wise I am very pleased with it, timekeeping is excellent on the timegrapher with a nice steady trace, and balance amplitude is excellent, sign of a clean and healthy movement. I also adjusted the beat error which was much too high at 3.3mS - not as straightforward an adjustment as on modern watches in this case as there is no adjustable arm, so the hairspring collet needs to be rotated on the balance to centre the impulse pin between the banking pins."
*****
Here are some photos:
The watch will be posted back to me early next week when I will complete this story with some wrist shots and some 'before and after' comparisons.
Needless to say, this thread is hopefully a good advertisement for Oliver and James who are both highly recommended and I will do a hero status after the next post, but very much looking forward to getting the Watch back.
I have a choice of a Black leather strap or the vintage Seiko bracelet that came with the donor watch, which Oliver has very kindly given an ultrasonic clean for me.
All good, will report again next week
Wow, just wow, and thank you for this interesting, educational and entertaining thread. Looking forward to the shots when you get it back.
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
FANTASTIC Ken! That looks really well done. That dial ageing in Rolex land would be adding $$$$. The work on the hands in particular really elevate the watch. Oliver and James have done an excellent job. Now don't go and sell it!
Congrats, not as bad as you first thought ? Seems to be fairly straightforward with a good donor .
Look forward to seeing pictures of it cased up , when you get it back .
Thanks guys, much appreciated. I won't be selling this one, I have searched for years for the right birth year watch and to find one with so much history, a year one first generation Alpinist doesn't get much better. Add in the journey from buying it, opening the package and seeing the second hand had fallen off through to finding who to give it to and what could realistically be done whilst retaining as much originality as possible, stressful and fun at the same time if that makes sense.
I do kind of feel sorry for that donor watch, but thinking about it that was one hell of a vintage Seiko for around $80, so just shows what's out there. The deal was Oliver would keep what's left for his spares collection. You never know, one of you guys might be grateful for that in the future. These spares have to come from somewhere.
The pleasing thing is the Watch should be good to go for a few years and run spot on.
Just lovely!
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Looking very good indeed!
Cheers,
Neil.
Thanks guys. I have been considering buying a bund strap as the watches were originally sold with these nearly 60 years ago. Finding an original is probably beyond impossible these days, but that's how the Watch would have looked.
I bought one of these from e-bay for £13.00 from Hong Kong so might have to wait a few weeks, but should be okay.
It is the same shape as the original, so the look will be right.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 28th March 2020 at 16:20.
I meant to ask you about straps...
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Looks a nice strap, personally I have thought about trying one of these for some of my vintage, BUT Im not sure it would look right as i have skinny wrists
Looking forward to seeing it on the stainless from the laurel
When it arrives I will put it on the bracelet and see what it looks like, I will also try the Black leather strap that the Japanese seller kindly put on it before listing it for sale. I will post a few pics of both. The bund pictured won't be here for a few weeks, so that can wait. There are different thicknesses of the bund (backing leather strip?) so some would suit a smaller wrist. I picked the bund pictured because the shape was similar to the original.
This is effectively the final posting in the story. The watch arrived back today and I am rather chuffed with it. Oliver and James have done a superb job and the bracelet from the vintage donor watch is a great bit of kit in very good condition for its age.
As requested a few before and after shots and a couple of wrist shots.
The watch before:
The watch afterwards:
The dial before:
The dial afterwards:
The movement before:
The movement afterwards:
And some wristshots, firstly on a Black leather strap:
And some on the rather old, but wonderful Seiko bracelet:
And a couple off the wrist:
I would like to conclude this thread by thanking both Oliver and James and recommending their servicing, restoration and reluming services to anyone who reads this thread.
Go on, buy a battered up old rare watch and see what you can do with it. This is a 1961 first generation Seiko Laurel Alpinist with a minty fresh (sad I know) movement ticking away.
Thank you to those who have followed this thread and been generous in their support.
Ken
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 31st March 2020 at 17:48.
Lovely Ken , looks good on the bracelet . Would be interested to see a pic of it on the Bund when it turns up.
I have never had the pleasure of working with Oliver but James has done a job for me and I can only echo your praise !!
Great looking watch
Thanks. The bracelet is so light, feels similar to a titanium bracelet in weight terms. The bund has been posted but will be a good few weeks yet, but I will post a pic when it arrives.
Another thing I've never seen before, where the bracelet meets the clasp there is an extending piece on springs, automatic if you like. It reminds me of one of those expandable bracelets that were popular years ago. I'm surprised the likes of Rolex and Omega haven't latched onto this as an idea, it seems to automatically adjust to the size of your wrist - very comfortable indeed.
Thank you very much for the kind words Ken!
Hollow links I reckon , but nice to wear everyday especially on this size watch . Its one of the reasons I like vintage ,you hardly know your wearing a watch !
It seems to have been quite a painless restoration ? . It no doubt helped with sourcing a good movement.
That really is a wonderful watch and a fascinating story. The finished result is testament to the skills of all the parties involved.
Many thanks for posting this - it is exactly the type of thread that makes this site so special.
Superb result! I would love to do something with a 60s vintage at some point, it looks such a satisfying process! Thankfully I already have a 'birth watch' - a bit newer mind
We were very lucky with the donor, it saved a lot of additional work: without it the barrel bridge hole would have needed to be re-bushed or jewelled. What was left of the cracked shellac on the pallet jewels would have required stripping and new shellac re-applied, not a particular straightforward thing to do, but necessary to address loose pallet jewels. The repair of the broken regulator would really have been a last resort, once again do-able but time consuming and not a particular easy job to do.
Thanks for sharing, amazing read.
Lovely story, and a much more interesting one than the 'just got the call' typical one.
Let's be honest, anything is more interesting than that.
Cheers,
Neil.
Posting Permissions
