Do big brands care about fakes/copies?

[notenoughwrists]

Just musing, in light of of a recent thread here, on fakes - and if the watch industry as a whole cares about them.

I remember as a youth, mid 1990’s, that fake Breitling were everywhere (certainly around Manchester anyway) and I have occasionally since then had folks of similar age to me comment “is that a fake” when seeing various ones of mine - perhaps a hangover from then?
But on the whole, nobody says anything about any watch I wear. And I still buy Breitling despite the “flood of fakes” in the 90s, their name is not tarnished in my eyes.

So to my point - take Rolex, as it’s easy and they’re arguably the most recognisable luxury watch brand to Joe Public. I assume (at a wild guess) that Rolex are perhaps the most faked watch.
But do Rolex care?
1: Folks who can afford and want a Rolex, buy one.
2: Folks who cannot, and want one, buy a fake.

Folks who see a Rolex on a wrist, real or fake, probably cannot tell the difference - and either we go back to point 1 or point 2.

Rolex are not done out of any money.
Nobody reputable will service the fakey. I imagine it’s hard to sell on a fake as real, and if you had probs and took it to Rolex, they’d tell you it was fake - so Rolex don’t suffer any bad press for shoddy watches.

Unless the fakes became so commonly worn as to dilute the prestige and mild exclusivity of them, I can’t see Rolex caring.

The AD network for all the big names seems very well locked down, I doubt many fakes slip through to actual retail - so it stays a bit black market for fakes. I can’t see big money being made particularly.

Yet I read of an arrest made recently in Dubai, 2 chaps and 330million dollars-worth of fake watches (taking them at their genuine counterpart’s watch retail value).
So someone is pushing for prosecutions I assume - wonder if it stems from commercial pressure, or is followed up by plod generally because dodgy goods means dodgy industry, dodgy working conditions, grey money, no tax or duties paid, funding crime, and stuff like that?


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[aldfort]

Yes they do care.
Take your Rolex example. You can buy a lot of watches that look like a Rolex but are very clear with their branding that they are not a Rolex. Seen across a bar room they might look identical.
That's fine nobody is kidding anybody.
Now consider a fake Rolex pretending to be what it is not. For a start that is illegal and it's done to deceive. There are people in the world who will try to pass off the better fake Rolex as if they are real. The first thing the buyer knows is when he walks into the Rolex shop to get it fixed.

[Mick P]

I sat on several anti counterfeit committees for over 20 years and believe me large organisations would willingly drop petrol bombs on the places where fakes are made.

However, the main hatred (and that is an accurate word) was mainly reserved for the idiots who knowingly bought a fake whatever at the local market because it not only attacked the business being faked but invariably laundered money for crooks. The counterfeit industries only survive because people buy the stuff.

However to be fair, I did not once came across a watch maker on the committee, it was mainly car parts, electrical components, printed documents, bicycles, razor blades, toiletries and clothing.

[xellos99]

Yes they care.
Organised crime gangs who also likely deal in other serious crime and violence do very well out of it.
People who knowingly buy them are retarded and mindless to say the least.
People who knowingly sell them are scum.

Hope that helps lol.

[IAmATeaf]

... I imagine it’s hard to sell on a fake as real...

Maybe not that hard if have a look on eBay, fb and gumtree?

[Desert_Weasel]

A collegue at work regularly brings fakes back from Turkey or other places after spending over 1k on a few of them. He gets right on my tits!!!.
I tell him about the points mentioned above and he is just nonchalant to it. He will then try and sell them on at profit. Majority of my other colleagues steer well clear now so he’s stuck with about 10 fakes ranging from Panerai, Rolex and Breitling that he can’t move on.
All in all.. he’s a tw*t.
Sorry but it annoys me immensely.

[SteveM112]

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[notenoughwrists]

I sat on several anti counterfeit committees for over 20 years and believe me large organisations would willingly drop petrol bombs on the places where fakes are made.

However, the main hatred (and that is an accurate word) was mainly reserved for the idiots who knowingly bought a fake whatever at the local market because it not only attacked the business being faked but invariably laundered money for crooks. The counterfeit industries only survive because people buy the stuff.

However to be fair, I did not once came across a watch maker on the committee, it was mainly car parts, electrical components, printed documents, bicycles, razor blades, toiletries and clothing.

Cheers Mick. I could see where it directly affects the brands for lower value goods. Razors for £10 from Boots or £5 from Gaz down the pub.... I can afford both and chose the shonky ones.

Wondered if it gets to such a price difference between gena and fake where it doesn’t matter to the manufacturers?


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[Corporalsparrow]

Over the long term, allowing fakes to flourish by tolerating them devalues the brand.

The fashion industry has some parallels. Cheap fake Hackett rugby shirts were once co-opted by the skinheads and the far right. Something that Hackett absolutely did not want to be associated with.

Similarly in the USA, fake Hilfiger clothing became the label of choice among gangs. Hilfiger moved heaven and earth to end the association before it put law abiding customers off.

Cristal champagne and Hennesy Cognac all have a love/hate relationship with the sales their rapper associations bring in.

Ultimately if Rolex become commonplace amongst people that do not illustrate the brand's values then it will damage sales of the real thing.

(Personally I'd quite like a really good fake Rolex, I think it carries more kudos than the genuine article...but that's just me.)

[jwg663]

It's unlikely that the 'average' fake watch buyer will ever spend several thousand pounds on a watch: not impossible, but improbable.

That means that the £200 or so that he spends on a Sexton isn't lost to (as 'Cilla would put it) OmePanRo. It's lost to genuine companies that produce watches in the sector that our fake-buyer, on his budget, ignores to buy a watch because it (hopefully) passes as something it isn't.

I suspect that the counterfeit watch industry has more impact on the bottom-line of eg. Michael Kors, Casio or Citizen than OmePanRo.

[aldfort]

Some of you will know I've taken a break from this watch enthusiast site. On returning it's fascinating to see the "fake is OK" debate still surfaces.
Might I be allowed to say that there are sites dedicated to replicas aka fakes. If you wish to learn about or debate why fakes are "OK" these sites will be more receptive and far more knowledgeable than this genuine watch enthusiast site in my view.
As we all know genuine does not equal expensive, it equals honest.

[SteveM112]

But brands such as Parnis Alpha Steinhart and several others are given a free ride..


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[chrisparker]

Not sure how much they care. I'd like to see what percentage of turnover they attribute to combatting the fake market, very little I expect.

[jwg663]

But brands such as Parnis Alpha Steinhart and several others are given a free ride...

Can you point me to watches made & marketed by those brands you've named which feature another brand's name or trade mark upon them?

The homage market is very different from blatant counterfeiting. Indeed, your host here has (re-)manufactured several models under his own brand-names. Are you including him in your broad-brush 'free ride' statement?

[Papa Hotel]

But brands such as Parnis Alpha Steinhart and several others are given a free ride..


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I know you think you've made some killer point there but watches branded as Steinhart, Parnis, Alpha aren't fakes.

[SteveM112]

I know you think you've made some killer point there but watches branded as Steinhart, Parnis, Alpha aren't fakes.

No killer point ... just blatant copies with a different name..


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[Papa Hotel]

No killer point ... just blatant copies with a different name..


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Ok, you win.

[aldfort]

No killer point ... just blatant copies with a different name..


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Yes copies or "homages" as some prefer. In no way pretending to be something they are not.
Do they annoy the brands they copy? I am sure they do.
Do they pretend to be something they are not? No
Subtle difference from a fake don't you agree?

[Mick P]

I would say that counterfeits are made by crooks and bought by scum.

Homages are made by businessmen and bought by cheapskates with no sense of self respect. The only reason to buy a look a like is to save cash and hope you look more affluent than you really are.

[Papa Hotel]

Homages are made by businessmen and bought by cheapskates with no sense of self respect. The only reason to buy a look a like is to save cash and hope you look more affluent than you really are.

Horse-s**t.

[SteveM112]

No I do not agree
A £30 beach sellers watch is no more a copy/fake of a £10k genuine piece than the brands I have mentioned
Putting a brands name on it alters nothing..many of the copies/fakes are of watches that do not exist does that make them a fake or copy ???

Exact copies with a different name are equally as bad in my opinion..
But it is just my opinion.,


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[chrisparker]

I would say that counterfeits are made by crooks and bought by scum.

And how about Rolex UK Ltd asking £3000 for a stainless steel case that seems not to require replacement, or that Brooklyn Bridge Panerai debacle. And there are plenty of scum wearing genuine watches too. Some of the world's most despicable Dictators, drug lords, and tax dodgers are known to wear Rolex, while we're being judgemental that is.

[raptor]

Most of the scum i know wear a genuine rolex

[beechcustom]

Most of the scum i know wear a genuine rolex

The more I think about this, the harder it is to disagree :-(

[aldfort]

No I do not agree
A £30 beach sellers watch is no more a copy/fake of a £10k genuine piece than the brands I have mentioned
Putting a brands name on it alters nothing..many of the copies/fakes are of watches that do not exist does that make them a fake or copy ???

Exact copies with a different name are equally as bad in my opinion..
But it is just my opinion.,


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Ok I don't count those generic beach watches with a name slapped on at random. They are so obviously just a bit of cheap tat that they fool nobody. In that respect they hardly count as a fake. A fake sets out to deceive people.
You could have your 2 year old paint a picture and put the name Gainsborough on it but it's not going to fool anybody is it?
Homages are honest in so far as they carry the makers name clearly. As I mentioned, the fact they look like something else at a distance is something people might make an assumption about.
A fake only has one purpose. That purpose is to con people. There are a huge range of opinions about Homages and about those that buy them.
If you spend time looking into fakes you'll be better placed to see the lengths a faker will go to. Some high end fakes have fooled experts. A homage is never going to do that.

[SteveM112]

Ok I don't count those generic beach watches with a name slapped on at random. They are so obviously just a bit of cheap tat that they fool nobody. In that respect they hardly count as a fake. A fake sets out to deceive people.
You could have your 2 year old paint a picture and put the name Gainsborough on it but it's not going to fool anybody is it?
Homages are honest in so far as they carry the makers name clearly. As I mentioned, the fact they look like something else at a distance is something people might make an assumption about.
A fake only has one purpose. That purpose is to con people. There are a huge range of opinions about Homages and about those that buy them.
If you spend time looking into fakes you'll be better placed to see the lengths a faker will go to. Some high end fakes have fooled experts. A homage is never going to do that.

I am fully aware of the lengths some go into reproducing these items to a level that only the expert can distinguish the copies
there was an interesting article in a recent edition of Europa Star where a company employee of one of the most copied brands could not tell the difference on the pieces that was put before them..
It’s an interesting read on how they are trying to crackdown on these people in China..


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[guinea]

The brands don't care. Some fashion brands have deliberately create lines that are easily copied to get recognition.

They have to pretend to care, but they don't really.

Rolex must be the most faked watch but it hasn't done them any harm at all.

[Lampoc]

The brands don't care... They have to pretend to care, but they don't really.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this. If watch brands really cared about the consumer, why aren't they getting the thousands of fakes on eBay/etsy etc removed? Why aren't any of the major brands part of eBays VeRO program to get fakes removed? I could pop on to ebay right now if I wished and find a hundred dodgy Oris/Hamilton/Fortis/whatever in an hour or two. My own personal theory (which could in all likelihood be utter horsesh*t) is that the more there are fakes in circulation means that the average watch buying consumer is more likely to buy brand new from an AD rather than risk buying second hand.

[2012]

Rolex must be the most faked watch but it hasn't done them any harm at all.

That you know of...

[stefmcd]

If your products are not being faked, it's because they're not in sufficient demand.

No company wants that situation.

Of course, no company can state fakes don't bother them but the alternative situation has even bigger implications for their business.



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[notenoughwrists]

Some of you will know I've taken a break from this watch enthusiast site. On returning it's fascinating to see the "fake is OK" debate still surfaces.
Might I be allowed to say that there are sites dedicated to replicas aka fakes. If you wish to learn about or debate why fakes are "OK" these sites will be more receptive and far more knowledgeable than this genuine watch enthusiast site in my view.
As we all know genuine does not equal expensive, it equals honest.

Welcome back. But I think you’ve misunderstood the thread.

My question was whether the genuine manufacturers were interested in fake/replicas of their goods, and specifically when the price difference between a blag copy and a gen item is so huge.

At no point has “Is Fake OK” been the point of this discussion. That’ is a whole other conversation and set of opinions that I’ am not overly interested in.


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[RD200]

Is Longines considered a big brand ?
I reported the fake Hydroconquest I ended up with, to Longines and got a really polite letter back suggesting I buy from an AD.
The same fakes are still on Ebay and the same sellers.I've reported them but needn't have wasted my time.
The galling thing is there are better Hydroconquests on watch forum sale sites

[SteveM112]

Is Longines considered a big brand ?
I reported the fake Hydroconquest I ended up with, to Longines and got a really polite letter back suggesting I buy from an AD.
The same fakes are still on Ebay and the same sellers.I've reported them but needn't have wasted my time.
The galling thing is there are better Hydroconquests on watch forum sale sites

Depends what you call a “big brand” I guess..
They certainly make a lot of watches and have great history.
The Hydroconquest is interesting I am hearing about lots of fake pieces and owners are unaware of it until it develops a problem Seiko also has huge counterfeit issues
It’s not all about the high value items being copied.


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[aldfort]

Welcome back. But I think you’ve misunderstood the thread.

My question was whether the genuine manufacturers were interested in fake/replicas of their goods, and specifically when the price difference between a blag copy and a gen item is so huge.

At no point has “Is Fake OK” been the point of this discussion. That’ is a whole other conversation and set of opinions that I’ am not overly interested in.


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I realise that you didn't introduce the topic but I note that it has crept into the thread.
To give you a proper answer, Of course big brands care. There is no way they see the fake as helping them maintain their exclusivity. The Harvard Business Review carried an interesting article about this very subject last year. The size of the fake market is huge and is run, as many have said by organised crime. In many cases I suspect the fakers organisation will be bigger than those of the products they fake. That is what makes the battle so difficult.
hopefully a lonk to the article here. https://hbr.org/2019/05/how-luxury-b...counterfeiters

[notenoughwrists]

Cheers Aldfort - good link, thanks!


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[SteveM112]

Cheers Aldfort - good link, thanks!


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https://www.europastar.com/the-watch...t-watches.html

You may find this of interest.


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[Neil.C]

I think widely faked goods can have a detrimental effect on original sales.

Think of Burberry, once a decent brand with a real history until their stuff became widely faked with every chav/chavette wearing fake copies.

I'm sure the plethora of counterfeit Burberry stuff with the distinctive plaid coupled with the sort of people wearing it may well have put off potential buyers of the real thing.

[P9CLY]

I think widely faked goods can have a detrimental effect on original sales.

Think of Burberry, once a decent brand with a real history until their stuff became widely faked with every chav/chavette wearing fake copies.

I'm sure the plethora of counterfeit Burberry stuff with the distinctive plaid coupled with the sort of people wearing it may well have put off potential buyers of the real thing.

This is is why I wear a grey or green tracky with the socks over the leggings!!,I blend in well and no one would think I'm wearing a genuine Rolex.......

Try it,you can wear the most expensive watch you have in absolute safety,even inside or outside Selfridges.

[Ruggertech]

That means that the £200 or so that he spends on a Sexton isn't lost to (as 'Cilla would put it) OmePanRo. It's lost to genuine companies that produce watches in the sector that our fake-buyer, on his budget, ignores to buy a watch because it (hopefully) passes as something it isn't.

Good point.

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[Ruggertech]

My own personal theory (which could in all likelihood be utter horsesh*t) is that the more there are fakes in circulation means that the average watch buying consumer is more likely to buy brand new from an AD rather than risk buying second hand.

Another good point.

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[RD200]

I think widely faked goods can have a detrimental effect on original sales.

Think of Burberry, once a decent brand with a real history until their stuff became widely faked with every chav/chavette wearing fake copies.

I'm sure the plethora of counterfeit Burberry stuff with the distinctive plaid coupled with the sort of people wearing it may well have put off potential buyers of the real thing.

I bought a (real) grey Burberry scarf in New York after seeing Bobby Robson with one on.
At the same time market stalls were selling the brown fake scarfs at £1-50 to go with shell suits.
Who was the celeb with the knackered nose who dressed her and her toddler in Burberry ??

[RD200]

Depends what you call a “big brand” I guess..
They certainly make a lot of watches and have great history.
The Hydroconquest is interesting I am hearing about lots of fake pieces and owners are unaware of it until it develops a problem Seiko also has huge counterfeit issues
It’s not all about the high value items being copied.


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Most of the 39mm quartz Hydroconquests on Ebay are fakes.

[P9CLY]

Does anyone really care about anything otherthan themselves in this mental world.

Most are head down on a mobile,laptop or iPad to know what's happening around them!.

[Flasher]

Welcome back. But I think you’ve misunderstood the thread.

My question was whether the genuine manufacturers were interested in fake/replicas of their goods, and specifically when the price difference between a blag copy and a gen item is so huge.

At no point has “Is Fake OK” been the point of this discussion. That’ is a whole other conversation and set of opinions that I’ am not overly interested in.


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Brand image or perceived image plays such a factor now within the marketplace that brands are highly conscious of demographic they wished to be associated with. Whether it’s consumers wearing a fake of their brand or a Genocide warlord wearing a genuine by the pool, they all have a factor on image.

If genuine buyers start to ask why the manufacturer is charging so much for an item, for example a steel timepiece, when the same steel watch with the brands stamp can be found coming off a factory in China for a fraction of the price, albeit with a crap movement, then brands having to justify prices could become a bit of a mess in the press releases if buyers decide that the prices are unjustified and walk away from a brand. Those buyers would never buy a fake but they have no wish to be taken for a ride by Brands either.

I would have too say that, Yes, brands are concerned about the fake/copy market for a multitude of reasons.

[Mick P]

Brand image or perceived image plays such a factor now within the marketplace that brands are highly conscious of demographic they wished to be associated with. Whether it’s consumers wearing a fake of their brand or a Genocide warlord wearing a genuine by the pool, they all have a factor on image.

If genuine buyers start to ask why the manufacturer is charging so much for an item, especially within the steel timepieces, when the same steel watch with the brands stamp can be found coming off a factory in China for a fraction of the price, albeit with a crap movement, then brands having to justify prices could become a bit of a mess in the press releases if buyers decide that the prices are unjustified and walk away from a brand. Those buyers would never buy a fake but they have no wish to be taken for a ride by Brands either.

I would have too say that, Yes, brands are concerned about the fake/copy market for a multitude of reasons.

When I sat on the anti counterfeiting committees, everyone involved hated the fact that their products were targeted. The originals were usually targeted because they were of high quality and the fakes were tat that degraded the brand. I never once met anyone who was privately happy that their products were counterfeited.

The engineering fakes such as electrical plugs and clutch plates were downright dangerous and the clothing and cosmetics were bought by chavs who totally degraded the brand.

[Neil.C]

I bought a (real) grey Burberry scarf in New York after seeing Bobby Robson with one on.
At the same time market stalls were selling the brown fake scarfs at £1-50 to go with shell suits.
Who was the celeb with the knackered nose who dressed her and her toddler in Burberry ??

Daniella Westbrook.

[mrushton]

Burberry only had that in the UK. In the rest of the world they were/are a premium brand esp their Prosum line. hermes Birkin fakes still sell for a lot of money since the real deal is harder to get than a Rolex ss. The brands are bothered but chasing them down would probably cost too much and their clientele can afford to buy the real thing.

[Griswold]

Of course they care, that's why they take on stores like this and have them shut down....



NOT! It's easier to fleece the gullible with ridiculously overinflated prices, supply shortage and 'lists' for the 'real thing'