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Thread: Chris Boardman compares cycling in Holland and Britain

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    Grand Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Chris Boardman compares cycling in Holland and Britain



    I stumbled across this video. Utrecht is our 4rd largest city and is located in the center of the Netherlands. The town houses big uni. And we all know that uni's attract lots of cyclists.

  2. #2
    Good video, I wish Lance Armstrong would do a comparison of cycling in the UK vs Netherland's too.

    I can't help but feel his video would provide a different view.

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    Master robcuk's Avatar
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    A bit dry... :-)

    NL and U.K. have two very different cycling cultures!

    However, I’m starting to notice just how bad the average Dutch driver is...especially middle aged men who think they still have the reactions of a teenager, but forget that others don’t have them either!

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    Quote Originally Posted by robcuk View Post
    A bit dry... :-)

    NL and U.K. have two very different cycling cultures!

    However, I’m starting to notice just how bad the average Dutch driver is...especially middle aged men who think they still have the reactions of a teenager, but forget that others don’t have them either!
    Totally true! Add to that the rising amount of electric bikes... the kids get the blame for wearing AirPods and using their phones (now no longer allowed when on a bike) but it are the OAPs who approach a junction like a Japanse kamikaze pilot!

    Car drivers: the same. I'm under the impression (when riding in the UK) that UK drivers are more alert, more politely and better drivers in general. When I was a boy back in the 60s, my father used to say: "Steer away from drivers wearing a hat when driving!" Those were the middle-aged men of the 60s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Totally true! Add to that the rising amount of electric bikes... the kids get the blame for wearing AirPods and using their phones (now no longer allowed when on a bike) but it are the OAPs who approach a junction like a Japanse kamikaze pilot!

    Car drivers: the same. I'm under the impression (when riding in the UK) that UK drivers are more alert, more politely and better drivers in general. When I was a boy back in the 60s, my father used to say: "Steer away from drivers wearing a hat when driving!" Those were the middle-aged men of the 60s.
    I’ve got an electric bike and understand some of the issue, the oldies on their Stellas are bad, but the worst are the ‘young pensioners’ who have bought their high speed R&M ebikes and who zoom along the shared streets in Haarlem at 40kph chatting away to each other and expecting us ‘mere mortals’ to ‘make a hole’ for them !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by robcuk View Post
    I’ve got an electric bike and understand some of the issue, the oldies on their Stellas are bad, but the worst are the ‘young pensioners’ who have bought their high speed R&M ebikes and who zoom along the shared streets in Haarlem at 40kph chatting away to each other and expecting us ‘mere mortals’ to ‘make a hole’ for them !!
    I hadn't thought about them. True again. Here, in the back country, it's Stellas all the way with the R&Ms on the bike paths between the open fields. The 'normal' electric bikes are not limited, power-wise: 300, 400 or 500W? You choose.

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    Master robcuk's Avatar
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    Yup, it’s the R&Ms with the blue number plates. I thought these were banned from using normal bike paths, but apparently not!
    Last edited by robcuk; 7th February 2020 at 11:12.

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    Excellent video and so true. It really started back in the 80's.

    I enjoyed the city while working there - I wish that Britain would do the same even in just the flat cities or flat areas of cities.



    B
    Last edited by Brian; 7th February 2020 at 11:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robcuk View Post
    Yup, it’s the R&Ms with the blue number plates. I thought these were banned from using normal bike paths, but apparently not!
    The 'slow' scooters (max 25 km) have to use the bike path. However, things are changing later this year: starting April 8 in Amsterdam and later this year in the rest of the country. After April 8 they have to wear a helmet as well. It will cause havoc among the owner, especially in Amsterdam where all those millennial real estate boys and girls use a 'slow' scooter to sell you a house. (You know how it works; madness).

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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    The 'slow' scooters (max 25 km) have to use the bike path. However, things are changing later this year: starting April 8 in Amsterdam and later this year in the rest of the country. After April 8 they have to wear a helmet as well. It will cause havoc among the owner, especially in Amsterdam where all those millennial real estate boys and girls use a 'slow' scooter to sell you a house. (You know how it works; madness).
    Can’t wait in Haarlem, this will shift the Deliveroo & Pizza guys onto the streets and off the cycle paths.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GMTMaster View Post
    Good video, I wish Lance Armstrong would do a comparison of cycling in the UK vs Netherland's too.

    I can't help but feel his video would provide a different view.
    Good idea, it would enhance the performance of the show

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    I am just reading "How Cycling Can Save The World" by Peter Walker, a real thought provoking book, with a lot of comparative differences in that. If you cycle, I really recommend it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by robcuk View Post
    A bit dry... :-)

    NL and U.K. have two very different cycling cultures!

    However, I’m starting to notice just how bad the average Dutch driver is...especially middle aged men who think they still have the reactions of a teenager, but forget that others don’t have them either!

    Having cycled in the uk since I was a kid, the experience of cycling in Holland was like night and day !
    Too many UK drivers believe that the roads are for cars only and cyclists are “in the way” the culture is completely backwards as the most vulnerable pedestrians and cyclists are forced into the gutter. Not to mention cyclists were on the roads well before cars!
    It’s the car driver who is responsible for a 2 tonne armoured machine around them, they should be very aware of the damage they can cause to a human!

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    I guess that >90% of the car drivers here are also cyclists and nearly all have kids going to school on his or her bike.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    I guess that >90% of the car drivers here are also cyclists and nearly all have kids going to school on his or her bike.
    Makes a big difference I imagine, your drivers are well aware of what it’s like to be on a bike - also the infrastructure, some of our cycle paths are just bizarre..A strip about a foot wide painted onto the Curb side of the roads ...or shared bus/cycle lanes, who came up with that !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G Imp View Post
    Makes a big difference I imagine, your drivers are well aware of what it’s like to be on a bike - also the infrastructure, some of our cycle paths are just bizarre..A strip about a foot wide painted onto the Curb side of the roads ...or shared bus/cycle lanes, who came up with that !
    But, as I wrote before, I found UK drivers very polite and they showed a lot of patience when we were driving around with our behemoth: Honda CR-V pulling a boat trailer loaded with two Lasers and a 5m RIB. Perhaps it was the foreign plate that made them aware. Having said that, they do tend to drive a lot faster than I would (dared) on narrow twisty country lanes with bikers on the road.

    Menno

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    Great video. I went out on a E- bike last week I recommend everyone to have a go. A bit pricey and heavy at the moment give it a 5 years for the priec and weight to come down and they will be everywhere.
    Last edited by Dandandanman; 9th February 2020 at 19:48.

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    All our towns and city’s would benefit by following the model shown in the video.

    The UK is far too car centric in culture. The presumed liability law would be a great start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    All our towns and city’s would benefit by following the model shown in the video.

    The UK is far too car centric in culture. The presumed liability law would be a great start.
    That law works perfectly. When driving a car, one is very aware of that situation. On the other hand, it's not as black and white as suggested. Cyclist without lights, wearing dark clothing at night cannot fully blame a motorist. The motorist can claim that the byclist didn't take any precautions. It often becomes a tug-of-war between insurance companies. That can stretch for years! One doesn't have to wait for his/her money. That's mostly paid instantly. Then starts the law-related 'scrummage' behind the scene.

    About e-bikes. Germany is filled with e-bikes, especially the ones with the fat tyre types and the moped license plate: doing 45 km/hr. Those are mean racing machines! Here in Holland, most e-bikes are for town use and some are so-called 'trekking' bikes: for world travelers.

    My wife has town-style e-bike. And it was in the shop for maintenance, so she had another e-bike (another brand) as a loan bike. She didn't have to go to the train station that day, so I took the bike to my work. My first ride on an e-bike. A revelation and a lot quicker. -/- 25% off the cycling time! Mind you: only ride an e-bike when your bike has very, very good brakes! I was over the moon with the bike and took it for shopping that afternoon - on the other side of town. Again, I beat Google Maps' suggested time to get home with 25%. Later that afternoon, I went to the bike shop on my wife's behalf and collected her own bike. Hers is a lot lighter than the bike I'd returned! Both have a Bosch motor, both have 7 gears. Perhaps a newer engine type? Go out and test it yourself.
    Last edited by thieuster; 9th February 2020 at 19:17.

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    All sounds great. Hope the UK follows.

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    A very simplistic film on a very complicated subject. I have worked on many public realm projects that include sharing space over the last couple of decades. Utrecht, Copenhagen, Hanover etc have all a much more inclusive public realm. But these schemes have been developed since the 1950's and 60's. Our Victorian streets where allowed to continue, and the motor car has dominated our street scene ever since. Park and Ride, Public Transport systems is not what many British people have wanted to embrace?

    Councils rely on the revenue the car parking generates its huge business, most Local Authorities would be bankrupt without it. Then we come to cyclist behaviours. Many Cities have now incorporated cycle lanes through growth packages, these are hoping to encourage good use of cycles. But what we get is a real mixture, we get the proficient cyclist (Mum,Dad with kids), we get the sports cyclist (Lycra brigade), we get the commuter cyclist (fat bloke on a bike), we get deliveroo and spotty oik (who wants to score some dope and ride around on his back wheel).
    Catering for all these users in a city centre can be tough, especially when only a few of the above will abide by the by laws.
    Cyclelist behaviours within the city centres cause big issues. Elderly, sensor impaired pedestrians fear for their lives and shy away from the town, rather than be hit or clipped by a commuter who is only interested on getting to the station as fast as possible.

    Also in China, bike use has become a ecological disaster with bike share schemes running out of control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYu4wzy9Lw

    I am working on a shared space scheme at the moment which I hope will include safe use of cycles, but its the behaviours I can't control with design. Cycle proficiency is almost none existent? Almost a dirty word with the young... back in the sixties it was something every child took. We need to try to get back to that, but without it... urban inclusiviety is going to be a very difficult pill to swallow.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by wildheart View Post
    A very simplistic film on a very complicated subject. I have worked on many public realm projects that include sharing space over the last couple of decades. Utrecht, Copenhagen, Hanover etc have all a much more inclusive public realm. But these schemes have been developed since the 1950's and 60's. Our Victorian streets where allowed to continue, and the motor car has dominated our street scene ever since. Park and Ride, Public Transport systems is not what many British people have wanted to embrace?

    Councils rely on the revenue the car parking generates its huge business, most Local Authorities would be bankrupt without it. Then we come to cyclist behaviours. Many Cities have now incorporated cycle lanes through growth packages, these are hoping to encourage good use of cycles. But what we get is a real mixture, we get the proficient cyclist (Mum,Dad with kids), we get the sports cyclist (Lycra brigade), we get the commuter cyclist (fat bloke on a bike), we get deliveroo and spotty oik (who wants to score some dope and ride around on his back wheel).
    Catering for all these users in a city centre can be tough, especially when only a few of the above will abide by the by laws.
    Cyclelist behaviours within the city centres cause big issues. Elderly, sensor impaired pedestrians fear for their lives and shy away from the town, rather than be hit or clipped by a commuter who is only interested on getting to the station as fast as possible.

    Also in China, bike use has become a ecological disaster with bike share schemes running out of control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYu4wzy9Lw

    I am working on a shared space scheme at the moment which I hope will include safe use of cycles, but its the behaviours I can't control with design. Cycle proficiency is almost none existent? Almost a dirty word with the young... back in the sixties it was something every child took. We need to try to get back to that, but without it... urban inclusiviety is going to be a very difficult pill to swallow.
    Some excellent observations, although the amount of cyclists killing/injuring people compared to cyclists killed or injured by motorists, is probably not comparable. Elderly sensory impaired pedestrians are probably more likely to get killed by a bus as well.

    The cyclists need to be separated from vehicles like pedestrians are. Labelling cyclists will not serve to foster urban inclusivity.

    Towns like Cambridge in the uk seem to have the cycling thing nailed but again it is a cultural thing there.
    Agree also there are some people who are terrible on bikes but their aggression I believe is a result of a trapped rat syndrome and constantly being endangered by vehicles

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    But, as I wrote before, I found UK drivers very polite and they showed a lot of patience when we were driving around with our behemoth: Honda CR-V pulling a boat trailer loaded with two Lasers and a 5m RIB. Perhaps it was the foreign plate that made them aware. Having said that, they do tend to drive a lot faster than I would (dared) on narrow twisty country lanes with bikers on the road.

    Menno
    Try cycling two abreast down those country lanes and see how polite the car drivers are !

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildheart View Post
    A very simplistic film on a very complicated subject. I have worked on many public realm projects that include sharing space over the last couple of decades. Utrecht, Copenhagen, Hanover etc have all a much more inclusive public realm. But these schemes have been developed since the 1950's and 60's. Our Victorian streets where allowed to continue, and the motor car has dominated our street scene ever since. Park and Ride, Public Transport systems is not what many British people have wanted to embrace?

    Councils rely on the revenue the car parking generates its huge business, most Local Authorities would be bankrupt without it. Then we come to cyclist behaviours. Many Cities have now incorporated cycle lanes through growth packages, these are hoping to encourage good use of cycles. But what we get is a real mixture, we get the proficient cyclist (Mum,Dad with kids), we get the sports cyclist (Lycra brigade), we get the commuter cyclist (fat bloke on a bike), we get deliveroo and spotty oik (who wants to score some dope and ride around on his back wheel).
    Catering for all these users in a city centre can be tough, especially when only a few of the above will abide by the by laws.
    Cyclelist behaviours within the city centres cause big issues. Elderly, sensor impaired pedestrians fear for their lives and shy away from the town, rather than be hit or clipped by a commuter who is only interested on getting to the station as fast as possible.

    Also in China, bike use has become a ecological disaster with bike share schemes running out of control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYu4wzy9Lw

    I am working on a shared space scheme at the moment which I hope will include safe use of cycles, but its the behaviours I can't control with design. Cycle proficiency is almost none existent? Almost a dirty word with the young... back in the sixties it was something every child took. We need to try to get back to that, but without it... urban inclusiviety is going to be a very difficult pill to swallow.
    I think you will find that the behaviour of car drivers damage considerably more lives than any errant cyclists. It’s this type of bias that causes cars to continually dominate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I think you will find that the behaviour of car drivers damage considerably more lives than any errant cyclists. It’s this type of bias that causes cars to continually dominate.
    The realm I'm dealing with does not have motor vehicles, only deliveries early morning and emergency vehicles. Cyclists need to understand that pedestrian priority means you get off, when it is not safe to proceed. Deliveroo are one pest who think they are entitled to ride where ever they like...they are not! Segregation by delineation does not work in City centres (not unless its London, Manchester etc) it leads to creating further divide. We just have not got the space.
    I recently visited Kingston Upon Thames who have pedestrian priority, what I saw was a good working environment for all. We are hoping to consider this type of environment in Essex.
    We have to all work together to make it work in our inner town & Cities. Pedestrians must retain priority, and keeping them safe is paramount.

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    Many thanks had not seen this document!

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    Interestingly cycle bad behaviour is almost a 100% male orientated. Female's do not feel comfortable behaving dangerously on cycles among pedestrians. Not something that can be designed, just down to behaviours!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildheart View Post
    The realm I'm dealing with does not have motor vehicles, only deliveries early morning and emergency vehicles. Cyclists need to understand that pedestrian priority means you get off, when it is not safe to proceed. Deliveroo are one pest who think they are entitled to ride where ever they like...they are not! Segregation by delineation does not work in City centres (not unless its London, Manchester etc) it leads to creating further divide. We just have not got the space.
    I recently visited Kingston Upon Thames who have pedestrian priority, what I saw was a good working environment for all. We are hoping to consider this type of environment in Essex.
    We have to all work together to make it work in our inner town & Cities. Pedestrians must retain priority, and keeping them safe is paramount.
    Yeah ... sadly there are a certain number of knobs it the world and some of them ride bikes and some drive cars ... and some are pedestrians.

    My point is a knob in a car is going to do more harm than one on a bike ...

    Where The Netherlands have the advantage is that they are, on average, a nicer and more considerate group of people than the British ... cultural difference. So when they have to share a space they take to it easier than we do ...

  30. #30
    Great that town centres are being pedestrianised but not everyone lives in a town, most drive in! already people resent paying to to park near by as it’s so expensive, they can park for free at retail parks and shop in generic chain shops - foot traffic has fallen, the high st retailers move away and you are left with junkies terrorising frail old people on their (stolen) pushbikes.

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    Grand Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Yeah ... sadly there are a certain number of knobs it the world and some of them ride bikes and some drive cars ... and some are pedestrians.

    My point is a knob in a car is going to do more harm than one on a bike ...

    Where The Netherlands have the advantage is that they are, on average, a nicer and more considerate group of people than the British ... cultural difference. So when they have to share a space they take to it easier than we do ...
    Mmm, I won't say we're nicer... Perhaps Rob here on the forum is the person who can comment on that. After all, he moved from London to Haarlem (15 kms west of Amsterdam). Although... I must admit that all people I know who're from Haarlem are really nice and polite people.

    In the Dutch newspapers today an article about the relative safety (for ped. and cyclists) of Helsinki and Oslo. I cannot find a source in English apart from the PDF link I posted above.

    Menno

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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Mmm, I won't say we're nicer... Perhaps Rob here on the forum is the person who can comment on that. After all, he moved from London to Haarlem (15 kms west of Amsterdam). Although... I must admit that all people I know who're from Haarlem are really nice and polite people.

    In the Dutch newspapers today an article about the relative safety (for ped. and cyclists) of Helsinki and Oslo. I cannot find a source in English apart from the PDF link I posted above.

    Menno
    Agreed, not necessarily nicer, the average Dutch driver drives their car like they are riding a bike the Dutch way!
    so:
    Ignore road markings you don’t like, ignore speed restrictions, change direction without signalling, refuse to stop, even when there is no way to move forward, use your phone to send a text in the fast lane, have animated discussions with your passenger whilst driving through pedestrians, oh and park right on a junction/corner, after all , you’re only gonna be 2 minutes, what harm can it do?

    oh, and my pet peeve, park outside your neighbours front window, right up on the pavement, leaving the space outside your house free for your guests, who are coming sometime next week! But this might just be me :-)

    Menno, did I miss anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by robcuk View Post
    Agreed, not necessarily nicer, the average Dutch driver drives their car like they are riding a bike the Dutch way!
    so:
    Ignore road markings you don’t like, ignore speed restrictions, change direction without signalling, refuse to stop, even when there is no way to move forward, use your phone to send a text in the fast lane, have animated discussions with your passenger whilst driving through pedestrians, oh and park right on a junction/corner, after all , you’re only gonna be 2 minutes, what harm can it do?

    oh, and my pet peeve, park outside your neighbours front window, right up on the pavement, leaving the space outside your house free for your guests, who are coming sometime next week! But this might just be me :-)

    Menno, did I miss anything?
    Spot on! Although the 'park outside your neighbours front window...' is a new one for me. I guess it has to do with narrow streets with houses built in the 20s. No front garden etc. No problem where I live; we have enough space and I can't see my neighbour's house and cars from my front room. Nevertheless, what you discribe would annoy me like hell!

    Here, more to the east, things are lot more relaxed. Simply because we have more space in this part of the country.

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