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Thread: I was planning to post pictures of 3 new prototypes today

  1. #1
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I was planning to post pictures of 3 new prototypes today

    Unfortunately there's a problem with the FTP server and I couldn't upload the pictures but I have put them on the Time Factors Facebook page if you want to have a look. I'll upload them here when the server is fixed.

    https://www.facebook.com/timefactors...KsYWJJ-SEuw_q3

    Edited 21.01.2020. FTP server now working and pictures added.



















    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  2. #2
    Master pacifichrono's Avatar
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    Okay, ship me that 38mm Dreadnaught tomorrow! Charge my credit card on file. Thanks, Eddie!

  3. #3
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    Yep, the 38mm Dreadnought looks bloody great! How long do we have to wait?!

    Hope youíre feeling better Eddie!

  4. #4
    Master
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    I would have thought they will all sell. There is a definite move to smaller in my opinion and they all look well proportioned.

    The expedition is the one Iím waiting for but the speedbird would be tempting.

    Wrist shots at some point would be interesting. It looks like a busy year ahead for you Eddie.

  5. #5
    Master
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    They look great, I would have thought they will all sell. There is a definite move to smaller in my opinion and they all look well proportioned.

    The expedition is the one Iím waiting for but the speedbird would be tempting.

    Wrist shots at some point would be interesting. It looks like a busy year ahead for you Eddie.

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    I was planning to post pictures of 3 new prototypes today

    Correct me if Iíve missed something, but why the NTH branding?

    Surely NTH Watches https://nthwatches.com/ might have something to say about this.

  7. #7
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    I was planning to post pictures of 3 new prototypes today

    Duplicate post
    Last edited by timor54; 20th January 2020 at 19:30.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by timor54 View Post
    Correct me if Iíve missed something, but why the NTH branding?

    Surely NTH Watches https://nthwatches.com/ might have something to say about this.
    I agree. The new branding seems off and even blacked out it sticks out quite a bit.


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  9. #9
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    I was planning to post pictures of 3 new prototypes today

    All a winner I think, although that 36mm speedbird is my choice.


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  10. #10
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    Hoping that once given the go ahead these will come out at staggered times, either that or I'm about to go on a starvation diet for the foreseeable.

    All great looking timepieces, the Willard looks fabulous.

  11. #11
    Master Papa Hotel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timor54 View Post
    Correct me if Iíve missed something, but why the NTH branding?

    Surely NTH Watches https://nthwatches.com/ might have something to say about this.
    First thing that came into my mind as well.

  12. #12
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    They are all excellent watches and likely to be very desirable. No problem with the watches.

    But what is that NTH logo? As far as I can see it is (a) redundant and (b) very similar to the NTH Watches logo.

  13. #13
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Yup, me too. The brand even looks very similar, so much so that I have just been on the NTH site (makers of the Nacken etc) to see whether it stands for New Time Horology, which it doesn't seem to.
    The mini Dread looks lovely, but the NTH is, I think, spoiling the clean lines a little.
    It seems to be in grey, not black. Is it?

  14. #14
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    Dreadnought looks good but I was really hoping for a prs-3

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    Okay, ship me that 38mm Dreadnaught tomorrow! Charge my credit card on file. Thanks, Eddie!
    Very, very, very tempted by the 38 mm Dreadnought!
    WR 500m? (can't read the caseback text on my cellphone). Would love that (I'm one of those few idiots who actually dive with their divewatches)...

    The branding on the lower part of the dial isn't to my liking tbh...
    Last edited by Bernard; 20th January 2020 at 22:43.

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    The Willard and Dreadnought are great and will join the queue if they make it to production.

    I donít think the NTH logo on the dial adds anything at all, if the product needs this additional brand differential I would leave it on the case back.

    The existing Smiths and Dreadnought text on the dial is sufficient, in my humble opinion.


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  17. #17
    Master sish101's Avatar
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    Oh heavens, as if the Caribbean wasn't enough, there's now this 38mm Dreadnought to drain my watch coffers. It looks compact and in proportion and I like it a lot but not at all keen on the NTH branding, it would be better without it.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by timor54 View Post
    Correct me if Iíve missed something, but why the NTH branding?

    Surely NTH Watches https://nthwatches.com/ might have something to say about this.
    Long time lurker but recent registered member here. I've been quiet as I'm a novice when it comes to watches (although I do have an interesting vintage Omega which I should post at some point) but I am an IT and (occasional) IP lawyer. I respectfully suggest the logo is reconsidered, Eddie, due to the risk of a trade mark or unregistered trade mark passing off claim made by NTH. I've seen the justification on the facebook page (i.e. your reference to having "announced" New Time Horology in 2009) and I'm afraid it doesn't appear to hold water unless you have actually been selling watches under the name (using "in the course of trade") and so have built up goodwill in your own NTH brand which pre dates NTH's own trading. The similarity of the logo just adds fuel to the flames. However, I love what Eddie has done over the years (I hope to order an Expedition myself on Sunday) and I'm more than happy to give Eddie further guidance via PM. It feels like a quick change of brand could avoid any unnecessary dispute (and legal fees!).

  19. #19
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    Oh my god. I absolutely LOVE the 38mm Dreadnought, but with one huge reservation - how long is the lug to lug distance? If it's more than 46mm I'll either cry or eat lard for the next month.

  20. #20
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaperLawyer View Post
    Long time lurker but recent registered member here. I've been quiet as I'm a novice when it comes to watches (although I do have an interesting vintage Omega which I should post at some point) but I am an IT and (occasional) IP lawyer. I respectfully suggest the logo is reconsidered, Eddie, due to the risk of a trade mark or unregistered trade mark passing off claim made by NTH. I've seen the justification on the facebook page (i.e. your reference to having "announced" New Time Horology in 2009) and I'm afraid it doesn't appear to hold water unless you have actually been selling watches under the name (using "in the course of trade") and so have built up goodwill in your own NTH brand which pre dates NTH's own trading. The similarity of the logo just adds fuel to the flames. However, I love what Eddie has done over the years (I hope to order an Expedition myself on Sunday) and I'm more than happy to give Eddie further guidance via PM. It feels like a quick change of brand could avoid any unnecessary dispute (and legal fees!).
    The New Time Horology logo is my registered trademark.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  21. #21
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    The New Time Horology logo is my registered trademark.

    Eddie

    After reading this thread, visiting the NTH watches website, and with the Omega legal battle of 2005/6/7 in mind, this exactly as I thought the situation would be.

  22. #22
    You asked for feedback and I presume you want that to be candid. The Dreadnought Reduced looks terrific barring the wholly unnecessary NTH logo. I simply do not understand what additional value is gained from the introduction of another level of branding in a company that already produces Precista, Speedbird, Dreadnought, Smiths, Sewells, Armstrong Siddley, all of which under the global Timefactors banner. For me the addition of NTH not only adds nothing, it actively dilutes. I'd ditch it.

    The Speedbird Reduced looks fine but the hands are both too long. This one holds no interest for me given the much more attractive 36mm options you already produce in the PRS-29A, Everest and the forthcoming new Smiths model. I've never much liked the Speedbird 3 and this doesn't change that for me (but of course that counts for nothing - I am sure you'll sell plenty).

    By far the least successful of your three prototypes is the PRS68 reduced. I'm afraid the dial execution on this is very poor - to me it looks like a sub-standard Philippine-produced 'replica' 6105 dial. It'd ditch it altogether and formulate a printed dial without the applied markers.

    Martin

  23. #23
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    I agree with the thoughts on the new logo
    Not sure why it is there and to be honest it would put me off buying the PRS68. I also think the dial doesnít look quite right, too bling when paired with the bezel I think.

  24. #24
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisK View Post
    Oh my god. I absolutely LOVE the 38mm Dreadnought, but with one huge reservation - how long is the lug to lug distance? If it's more than 46mm I'll either cry or eat lard for the next month.
    46.5mm.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  25. #25
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    I hope for your sake that you're not going to have to enter in another copyright battle Eddie. But I understand why you would need to have watches commercialised with the new brand and logo before you take up arms.
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    The New Time Horology logo is my registered trademark.

    Eddie
    Noted (https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tm.../UK00003415919)

    However, it is only a few months' old and NTH's brand has been in the UK market for considerably longer? Registering a trade mark is good practice but the registration can always be challenged at a later date by a third party with prior rights. I assume NTH does not pay for a trade mark "watch service" (provided by trade mark agents) and so didn't spot your trade mark application and raise a third party objection when published following the trade mark examiner's assessment on "absolute grounds" (i.e. ensuring that a trade mark is not descriptive or other reasons for rejecting the applicaiton). If NTH does not have an existing UK or EU registration then the examiner would not have readily spotted the potential issue.

    No need to go into this further on the forum - can I suggest you pick up the phone to your trade mark agent and show them the NTH mark and discuss risk of challenge, should NTH object to your usage of your trade mark?

    The above advice is well intentioned - hopefully there are some facts which help you (and I certainly don't know what the omega dispute referred to above is about!).

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I hope for your sake that you're not going to have to enter in another copyright battle Eddie. But I understand why you would need to have watches commercialised with the new brand and logo before you take up arms.
    But why would you bother? All models have previously been released under their respective Timefactors brands albeit with different specifications.

    IMO, it would be picking a fight purely for the sake of it.


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  28. #28
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    As Martin mentioned previously, one assumes you are after honest feedback without prejudice.

    I think the Dreadnought is a good move and will sell well.
    I agree with Martin regards the Speedbird....hands are too long.
    PRS68.... for me it's a less than successful copy of a 6105. Others will no doubt disagree.

    I have to echo other comments about the NTH logo....what's the point? It doesn't add anything to the dials and it seems to be setting yourself up for another legal case for no apparent reason.

  29. #29
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaperLawyer View Post
    Noted (https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tm.../UK00003415919)

    However, it is only a few months' old and NTH's brand has been in the UK market for considerably longer? Registering a trade mark is good practice but the registration can always be challenged at a later date by a third party with prior rights. I assume NTH does not pay for a trade mark "watch service" (provided by trade mark agents) and so didn't spot your trade mark application and raise a third party objection when published following the trade mark examiner's assessment on "absolute grounds" (i.e. ensuring that a trade mark is not descriptive or other reasons for rejecting the applicaiton). If NTH does not have an existing UK or EU registration then the examiner would not have readily spotted the potential issue.

    No need to go into this further on the forum - can I suggest you pick up the phone to your trade mark agent and show them the NTH mark and discuss risk of challenge, should NTH object to your usage of your trade mark?

    The above advice is well intentioned - hopefully there are some facts which help you (and I certainly don't know what the omega dispute referred to above is about!).
    This is my trademark. It is not a word or letters, it is an image and the trademark is New Time Horology, it is NOT NTH.



    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  30. #30
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    I never liked the old Dreadnought but this new one is gorgeous and I am totally sold on it. Perhaps it's the red accents instead of orange or perhaps it's the missing ring around the crystal but somehow this new one is more homogenous.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    This is my trademark. It is not a word or letters, it is an image and the trademark is New Time Horology, it is NOT NTH.

    Eddie
    The image is confusingly similar - hence the comments above from other board members, Eddie. I appreciate the implications that the money spent on the trade mark registration could be of limited/no value is not something you want to read and I'm not attempting to give you legal advice. All I am suggesting is that you ask your trade mark agent to give his/her view as to the potential for confusion and the likelihood of a challenge to your trade mark registration (assuming NTH's watches have been sold in the UK for some time). Trust in your trade mark agent's advice (if not the well intentioned opinion of a new forum member). If you do want legal advice from a trade mark lawyer then I can put you in touch with one but I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

  32. #32
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    Leaving the copyright issue aside, what is the purpose of the new brand? On a different thread Eddie mentioned building up the Smiths brand and that makes perfect sense to me. New Time Horology doesn't have the history or legacy of Smiths, if anything it just adds more confusion. I think moving to fewer brands would be the right direction.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by gerrudd View Post
    Leaving the copyright issue aside, what is the purpose of the new brand? On a different thread Eddie mentioned building up the Smiths brand and that makes perfect sense to me. New Time Horology doesn't have the history or legacy of Smiths, if anything it just adds more confusion. I think moving to fewer brands would be the right direction.
    I agree, speaking as a brand consultant and designer I'd not pursue the NTH mark. I'd also like to see some consistency across the Tmefactors portfolio. Smiths is by far the most recognisable brand, and it's the one I'd run with. I'd make Dreadnaught, Speedbird ect. models under the Smiths brand and register a Smiths-watches domain name.

  34. #34
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    I agree, speaking as a brand consultant and designer I'd not pursue the NTH mark. I'd also like to see some consistency across the Tmefactors portfolio. Smiths is by far the most recognisable brand, and it's the one I'd run with. I'd make Dreadnaught, Speedbird ect. models under the Smiths brand and register a Smiths-watches domain name.
    Whilst I agree that the NTH-like logo does seem to dilute and confuse existing brands unnecessarily, I think it would be equally wrong to make Dreadnought or Speedbird watches under the Smiths name. Dreadnought and Speedbird have their own now long-established identities and using the Smiths name would fundamentally devalue them. They stand on their own, as does Smiths for watches produced under that name.

    However, back to New Time Horology (or NTH as it would inevitably become known): It really does seem unnecessary and confusing, whether it be on a Speedbird, Dreadnought or Smiths product.

    A new, smaller size Speedbird is perfectly legitimate as a Speedbird with no additional branding. It doesn't need an additional brand name on the dial or back.

    Similarly, a new, smaller size Dreadnought is perfectly legitimate as a Dreadnought without additional branding. It doesn't need an additional brand name on the dial or back. If there is a need to differentiate it from the original limited run of the Dreadnought, then by all means do so but without introducing a new brand name. Perhaps just put "Dreadnought Reduced" or "Dreadnought NT" on the back.

    And the same for the new, smaller size Smiths. It's a Smiths and it stands on its own as a Smiths.


    So... the watches: Fine. Look good. The Speedbird, Dreadnought and Smiths brands. Fine. But adding another brand? No, no point at all.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 21st January 2020 at 16:15.

  35. #35
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I had already decided not to have the logo on the dial but the prototypes were already in production. The production models will NOT have the logo on the dial.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Whilst I agree that the NTH-like logo does seem to dilute and confuse existing brands unnecessarily, I think it would be equally wrong to make Dreadnought or Speedbird watches under the Smiths name. Dreadnought and Speedbird have their own now long-established identities and using the Smiths name would fundamentally devalue them. They stand on their own, as does Smiths for watches produced under that name.
    I disagree that strengthening the Smiths brand would devalue watches made under the Dreadnought or Speedbird marks. The original Mini was badged under various names, and branding Heuer as Tag Heuer didn't devalue the 'Heuer' branded watches either - the opposite infact.

    I'd go a step further and introduce a common caseback across the range and definitely a consistent SMITHS logo rather the two currently in use.

    Done well, Smiths could stand up against Bremont, Scofield, Christopher Ward and Daniel Wellington in branding terms (despite what we might think about their offerings).

  37. #37
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    I had already decided not to have the logo on the dial but the prototypes were already in production. The production models will NOT have the logo on the dial.
    Ah, that's a big relief. :-)

    (I still think that the watches don't need the logo on the back either but not having the logo on the front is good).

  38. #38
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    I disagree that strengthening the Smiths brand would devalue watches made under the Dreadnought or Speedbird marks.
    To be clear: I too think that strengthening the Smiths brand (i.e. using it for future watch models where appropriate) is a good idea. But that is nothing to do with the Dreadnought or Speedbird brands. They are separate things and they are not Smiths brand watches, and nor should they be in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    The original Mini was badged under various names, and branding Heuer as Tag Heuer didn't devalue the 'Heuer' branded watches either - the opposite infact.
    Those are not the issue. Here and now, a Smiths-branded Speedbird or a Smiths-branded Dreadnought would be folly. Sure, strengthen the Smiths brand (by focussing on it for new models) but you cannot seriously think you'd strengthen a brand by diluting it, which is exactly what trying to shoehorn Speedbird and Dreadnought into Smiths would amount to. Don't break what isn't broken: Speedbird and Dreadnought stand on their own just fine and their separate and independent existence does not in any way detract from building up Smiths for new models that suit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    Done well, Smiths could stand up against Bremont, Scofield, Christopher Ward and Daniel Wellington in branding terms (despite what we might think about their offerings).
    Marketing is more important than exact brand details in this context. You don't need to have diluted Smiths by shoehorning in Speedbird or Dreadnought to be able to market Smiths; it just takes more (much more) funds.


    Anyway... all this is irrelevant. It's a side discussion. The key issue in this thread here is not Smiths vs. Speedbird vs. Dreadnought.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 21st January 2020 at 17:57.

  39. #39
    Grand Master WORKSIMON's Avatar
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    I think I must have different tastes as I rather liked the new Logo on the dials, mind you I do like busy dials as well.
    Cheers

    Simon



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  40. #40
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    Must get my eyes checked I had not even noticed the NTH on the dial, I was looking at my phone to be fair.

  41. #41
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    Does this means only one will go into production?
    Wanna get the baby speedbird because even though the original speedbird is already at 39mm case size.

    The bigger speedbird has a thin bezel and the dial is about 33 or 34mm with the numerals right at the side which makes the watch wear large.

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  42. #42
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    Good to hear that the gaffer has already decided against NTH on the dials, perhaps in a similar manner to 'Swatch' being the umbrella of many brands (even though not on all the brands dials) NTH will be the same and ultimately replace "Time factors" - this is of course pure conjecture. FWIW, the Dreadnought is very appealing.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  43. #43
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    I eagerly await that Dreadnought!

  44. #44
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    The very mention of the word Dreadnought should conjure up visions of size, bulk and power. This wee thing should be called the "Pipsqueak" . ;-)



  45. #45
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    I also really like the new Dreadnought. This one will come with a Miyota 9015 movement right? How thick will this one be? And any pricing indication?

  46. #46
    Grand Master Dave E's Avatar
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    The proportions on that 38mm DN look very nice.

    The only thing I don't like about the Smiths is the endlinks, they look too crude with the rest of the design.

    Out of curiosity, what is the rationale behind adding a new branding (whatever it may be)? You've already got various brands under the Timefactors umbrella.
    Dave E

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    46.5mm.

    Eddie
    Right on the limit for me. I'll still buy one though, as a smaller Dreadnought has been a personal 'want' for a long time.

    Are you able to give us any clue as to ball park pricing?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    The very mention of the word Dreadnought should conjure up visions of size, bulk and power. This wee thing should be called the "Pipsqueak" . ;-)
    Being smaller doesn't mean you're less powerful and vice versa.

    ANYway, maybe the 38mm version should be called the, 'Dreadnought-R'. With the 'R' standing for, 'Reduced'.

  49. #49
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    What are the case thicknesses for these prototypes please ? Thanks !

  50. #50
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    A new dreadnought... I'm going crazy :Oh mein Gott:. That would be my dream, after I bought my first dreadnought in year ~2004 (probably one of the first in Germany).

    The Dreadnought GMT I overslept or found out too late that it exists.

    Dear Eddie, I really hope you will build the big dreadnought. I will be one of the first customers from Germany again, if you give us the chance to buy it. Will the large dreadnought be of the same dimensions as the original model? So around 43mm diameter?

    Edit:

    After looking at the photos several times - I think I misinterpreted the photo of the large and small dreadnought... on the left is the original big and old dreadnought and on the right would be the new one in 38mm size, right?

    Means- if there is a new DN, then only the small model?
    Last edited by TTR350; 23rd January 2020 at 11:58.

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