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Thread: Any clay pigeon shooters on the forum?

  1. #51
    Master raptor's Avatar
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    Any clay pigeon shooters on the forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    Because nobody at interview says to the FEO im feeling a bit depressed and drink 2 bottles of wine a night while taking my strong medication.
    I thought that was normal ;)

    Here kids skip the army due to psychological issues- faked or not- and then issued a hunting licence and the right to bare as many hunting guns they like 12g
    We have those that did their military service at least one 7.62 gun at home with 1000 rounds. And they dont get tested for any kind of ability.
    Last edited by raptor; 18th January 2020 at 09:51.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Would they tell their doctor that then?
    Not everyone, but doctors records go way back and people have short memories. It helps catch the genuinely unsuitable individuals.

    Despite the current level of screening some really unsuitable people make it to Licence holder status, my own view is the process is not stiff enough and preparation awareness and safety training is lacking.
    Last edited by MCFastybloke; 18th January 2020 at 08:49.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post

    Just as you have no choice to go to the GP, the GP has no choice but to do the work. Believe me, they donít want your £60, they would much rather you go somewhere else. General Practice is at absolute breaking point the last thing they want is extra admin





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not true at all, I suggest you read advice given by the BMA in sept 2019 on this subject.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post

    Despite the current level of screening some really unsuitable people make it to Licence holder status, my own view is the process is not stiff enough and preparation awareness and safety training is lacking.
    If you have concerns about a licence holder known to you, I suggest contacting the authorities and voicing your concern.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    Sorry to pipe up once again, I realise it isnít really wanted but I do just feel a need to present the other side...
    Just as you have no choice to go to the GP, the GP has no choice but to do the work. Believe me, they donít want your £60, they would much rather you go somewhere else. General Practice is at absolute breaking point the last thing they want is extra admin.
    The reason they get it done when they can is because it is rightly at the bottom of their priority list. It isnít their fault some organisation wants them to take a little responsibility for gun licenses.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I will agree with all this and everything else you said if you sent me £60 + Vat. Once received I will reply with a template letter (2nd class post) confirming payment has been recieved. Thanks

    regarding fault, The government, police, shooting organisations and medical representatives from the BMA, Royal College of General Practitioners and General Medical Council agreed this system in a Home Office working group which produced the guidance on medical involvement in firearms licensing. There was no agreement a fee would ever be charged, this has been introduced by the GPís themselves and seen as a other way to generate revenue.

    If you are fit and healthy there is no need for the GP to reply, a fee is only valid IF the applicant is unfit and a report is needed. Some GPís are charging either way which is unfair, as some GPís have issue with firearms in general, again there is even a standard reply from GPís stating they do not agree with firearms in general and therefore will not reply. Please remember some people have a firearms license for their livelihood not just recreational.

    Anyway. PM for my bank details or PayPal account to send me the cash. Ta

  6. #56
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    Not everyone, but doctors records go way back and people have short memories. It helps catch the genuinely unsuitable individuals.

    Despite the current level of screening some really unsuitable people make it to Licence holder status, my own view is the process is not stiff enough and preparation awareness and safety training is lacking.
    Which ďunsuitable peopleĒ are you referring to exactly, and can you be sure that their doctor would have flagged them as unsuitable? I presume if you actually know some unsuitable people you would alert the firearms licensing department.
    It's just democracy.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Which ďunsuitable peopleĒ are you referring to exactly, and can you be sure that their doctor would have flagged them as unsuitable? I presume if you actually know some unsuitable people you would alert the firearms licensing department.
    My brother hasnít been to the docs in over 25 years. His record would say he had his appendix out at 15 and a bad back 25 odd years ago. Where as his work colleagues know him very well hence why you have to have references for the application.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Which ďunsuitable peopleĒ are you referring to exactly, and can you be sure that their doctor would have flagged them as unsuitable? I presume if you actually know some unsuitable people you would alert the firearms licensing department.
    I do know some unsuitable individuals,probably have to reafirm safety issues on a one a month basis to some one or other,but only by face not every one has there name on there vest. I do report on to ground owners who will have the means to take the name further but i feel they let it slide for commercial reasons.
    There are repeated drink drivers, punched a guy at rugby and broke his jaw friday night heros all over the sector of the sport i frequent. The Fire arms are like the police in general, a dog without teeth, something really serious would be needed for them to withdraw the privilidge.

    In the last 12 months

    Turned to leave a shooting stand at kegworth, next but one individual has his gun mounted as i turn. "just getting my site picture"
    Friend/coach of a lad outside cage gun mounted
    England shooter coaching in manchester, student gun mounted on path
    Rogue S/S shooter walking around ground with gun closed
    Member of a club comes into my peripheral vision having crossed rope barrier while i was shooting an adjacent stand "that traps not working"
    A friend pulled a semi shooter waiting to follow me in just popping one in "to get ready"

    I frequently see semi shooters leaving a cage or walking about bolt closed, old hands swinging the muzzles of closed guns thru other people.

    My friend who is also a prolific game shooter has tales of horror galore.There is the rub, is just words when you escalate it,

    I also know a friend who i see regular who is a very safe shooter, one of my regular pals, prolific on FB with posts of loneliness/suicide and depression. Matters not what you know but what can be proved.

  9. #59
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    I am not saying I wouldn't take the £60 if I did the work. I want the money if I did the work, I am saying I would much rather you didn't bother me with it at all.

    Hahaha do you really think it is for a GP to generate revenue? That's ridiculous. How much revenue do you think this creates per GP? The charge is there as a matter of principle. You want a highly trained professional to use their time so that you can have a form so that you can enjoy your hobby, it shouldn't be done for free. That would be a precedent that shouldn't be set on the background of current workloads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anygreg View Post
    I will agree with all this and everything else you said if you sent me £60 + Vat. Once received I will reply with a template letter (2nd class post) confirming payment has been recieved. Thanks

    regarding fault, The government, police, shooting organisations and medical representatives from the BMA, Royal College of General Practitioners and General Medical Council agreed this system in a Home Office working group which produced the guidance on medical involvement in firearms licensing. There was no agreement a fee would ever be charged, this has been introduced by the GPís themselves and seen as a other way to generate revenue.

    If you are fit and healthy there is no need for the GP to reply, a fee is only valid IF the applicant is unfit and a report is needed. Some GPís are charging either way which is unfair, as some GPís have issue with firearms in general, again there is even a standard reply from GPís stating they do not agree with firearms in general and therefore will not reply. Please remember some people have a firearms license for their livelihood not just recreational.

    Anyway. PM for my bank details or PayPal account to send me the cash. Ta

  10. #60
    Craftsman Anygreg's Avatar
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    Any clay pigeon shooters on the forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    I am not saying I wouldn't take the £60 if I did the work. I want the money if I did the work, I am saying I would much rather you didn't bother me with it at all.

    Hahaha do you really think it is for a GP to generate revenue? That's ridiculous. How much revenue do you think this creates per GP? The charge is there as a matter of principle. You want a highly trained professional to use their time so that you can have a form so that you can enjoy your hobby, it shouldn't be done for free. That would be a precedent that shouldn't be set on the background of current workloads.
    As mentioned this for some isnít a hobby, itís their job. Again misunderstood.

    Donít forget to PM for the account details, the fees are climbing

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    So why should they have to be involved in firearms licensing, which has nothing to do with healthcare?
    The NHS isnít, GPs are.

  12. #62
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    Again, your attempt to antagonise by stating lack of understanding is a little embarrassing. Hobby or job, makes no difference. Its work a GP isn't contracted to do. If the GP is willing to do it, you should be charged. Unless the GP doesn't have respect for their own time, but that is up to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anygreg View Post
    As mentioned this for some isnít a hobby, itís their job. Again misunderstood.

    Donít forget to PM for the account details, the fees are climbing

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by seadog1408 View Post
    Not true at all, I suggest you read advice given by the BMA in sept 2019 on this subject.
    Just did and yeah GPs are allowed to conscientiously object but they still have to respond and state why.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    Again, your attempt to antagonise by stating lack of understanding is a little embarrassing. Hobby or job, makes no difference. Its work a GP isn't contracted to do. If the GP is willing to do it, you should be charged. Unless the GP doesn't have respect for their own time, but that is up to them.
    Quote from BMA for GP sample letter response.


    Thank you for your request for medical information relating to the above named individual for the purposes of assessing them for suitability in issuing them with a firearms certificate.
    I refuse to provide a report because I have a conscientious objection to the holding of firearms.
    I am aware of my responsibilities and obligations under GMC guidance on conscientious objection.


    So as a hobby, this really wouldnít matter, but as a job, say for dispatching animals, farmers etc do you think this would have an impact? Does this Still make no difference?

  15. #65
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    Makes no difference as to the charge. If I am doing work I am not contracted to do, I should be reimbursed. Would an accountant let you off doing your taxes because it is for your job?

    This is not a task GPs have asked to do, I appreciate you also have no choice but to involve the GP, but that isn't the fault of the GP and it is not their problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anygreg View Post
    Quote from BMA for GP sample letter response.


    Thank you for your request for medical information relating to the above named individual for the purposes of assessing them for suitability in issuing them with a firearms certificate.
    I refuse to provide a report because I have a conscientious objection to the holding of firearms.
    I am aware of my responsibilities and obligations under GMC guidance on conscientious objection.


    So as a hobby, this really wouldnít matter, but as a job, say for dispatching animals, farmers etc do you think this would have an impact? Does this Still make no difference?

  16. #66
    Craftsman Anygreg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    Makes no difference as to the charge. If I am doing work I am not contracted to do, I should be reimbursed. Would an accountant let you off doing your taxes because it is for your job?

    This is not a task GPs have asked to do, I appreciate you also have no choice but to involve the GP, but that isn't the fault of the GP and it is not their problem.
    Youíre missing the point, do you think your refusal to reply at all regarding the disclosure will have any bearing on if the applicant is requesting the license for a job or hobby was the question?
    More importantly do you think the failure to supply any information on the applicant could have a public safety impact also?

    The GP fee is being treated as optional by most anyway.

  17. #67
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    It would be matter of prioritisation. I would probably prioritise the person applying for a job higher than the person with a hobby. I personally wouldn't actually refuse because I have no conscientious objection. I would do the work, no doubt, I would have to find the time to do it, because yes it seems like it is a public safety issue.

    And yes the GP fee is certainly optional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anygreg View Post
    You’re missing the point, do you think your refusal to reply at all regarding the disclosure will have any bearing on if the applicant is requesting the license for a job or hobby was the question?
    More importantly do you think the failure to supply any information on the applicant could have a public safety impact also?

    The GP fee is being treated as optional by most anyway.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post

    This is not a task GPs have asked to do, I appreciate you also have no choice but to involve the GP, but that isn't the fault of the GP and it is not their problem.
    Personally I don't have a problem paying a fee as I can claim it back, and I am lucky as I have an understanding GP (although we have never met!) but others around the UK are not that lucky and are being charged through the nose (200+pounds) or their GP flatly refuses. The license holders don't want this, the GP's don't want this, it's just the police wanting this.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by seadog1408 View Post
    Personally I don't have a problem paying a fee as I can claim it back, and I am lucky as I have an understanding GP (although we have never met!) but others around the UK are not that lucky and are being charged through the nose (200+pounds) or their GP flatly refuses. The license holders don't want this, the GP's don't want this, it's just the police wanting this.
    Agreed. I can understand why GPs would charge like that or refuse. When you can't keep up with the work you are contracted to do, it is natural for there to be significant pushback to work that you are not even contracted to do, but feel is being forced upon you.

  20. #70
    Craftsman Anygreg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    It would be matter of prioritisation. I would probably prioritise the person applying for a job higher than the person with a hobby. I personally wouldn't actually refuse because I have no conscientious objection. I would do the work, no doubt, I would have to find the time to do it, because yes it seems like it is a public safety issue.

    And yes the GP fee is certainly optional.

    I genuinely mean no disrespect, but If you canít see any issue with the above statement then I think Iíve made my point. A Great place to park this topic I think, this has turned into something for the pigeonwatch forum etc..

    Luckily My GP totally gets it, having had this exact conversation with him, in person. He comes from rural Cheshire and supports his patients and helps in anyway he can, as do the other GPís in the surgery. They are part of the local community. They get it, they understand the dilemma. They see through the red tape, politics and BS and just get on with it and try to make it work best they can. In return they have happier and more accommodating patients that are willing to help out at the surgery when needed. Itís what being British used to be all about, unfortunately something some have lost over the years, never brought up with or even had.

    This is a multiheaded beast and with far to many variables/policies/guidelines to sort here on what is for the most part just a great pass time/sport/hobby/job etc..

  21. #71
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    By that I am assuming you mean that because it is a public safety issue then I should just do it and the fee should be neither here nor there. In a perfect world that would be the case. Unfortunately the wider issue is that GPs cannot do the work they are contracted to do as it is so they can't just roll over and take extra work. Ultimately the public safety issue is in fact created by the people that want to own the guns so they should pay for the admin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anygreg View Post
    I genuinely mean no disrespect, but If you canít see any issue with the above statement then I think Iíve made my point. A Great place to park this topic I think, this has turned into something for the pigeonwatch forum etc..

    Luckily My GP totally gets it, having had this exact conversation with him, in person. He comes from rural Cheshire and supports his patients and helps in anyway he can, as do the other GPís in the surgery. They are part of the local community. They get it, they understand the dilemma. They see through the red tape, politics and BS and just get on with it and try to make it work best they can. In return they have happier and more accommodating patients that are willing to help out at the surgery when needed. Itís what being British used to be all about, unfortunately something some have lost over the years, never brought up with or even had.

    This is a multiheaded beast and with far to many variables/policies/guidelines to sort here on what is for the most part just a great pass time/sport/hobby/job etc..

  22. #72
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    I do know some unsuitable individuals,probably have to reafirm safety issues on a one a month basis to some one or other,but only by face not every one has there name on there vest. I do report on to ground owners who will have the means to take the name further but i feel they let it slide for commercial reasons.
    There are repeated drink drivers, punched a guy at rugby and broke his jaw friday night heros all over the sector of the sport i frequent. The Fire arms are like the police in general, a dog without teeth, something really serious would be needed for them to withdraw the privilidge.

    In the last 12 months

    Turned to leave a shooting stand at kegworth, next but one individual has his gun mounted as i turn. "just getting my site picture"
    Friend/coach of a lad outside cage gun mounted
    England shooter coaching in manchester, student gun mounted on path
    Rogue S/S shooter walking around ground with gun closed
    Member of a club comes into my peripheral vision having crossed rope barrier while i was shooting an adjacent stand "that traps not working"
    A friend pulled a semi shooter waiting to follow me in just popping one in "to get ready"

    I frequently see semi shooters leaving a cage or walking about bolt closed, old hands swinging the muzzles of closed guns thru other people.

    My friend who is also a prolific game shooter has tales of horror galore.There is the rub, is just words when you escalate it,

    I also know a friend who i see regular who is a very safe shooter, one of my regular pals, prolific on FB with posts of loneliness/suicide and depression. Matters not what you know but what can be proved.
    Most of your post refers to a lack of safety practices, which should be pointed out to the club involved in no uncertain terms. It is the club's responsibility to ensure safety practices are carried out properly.

    I wouldn't hesitate to point it out to them and the club, in fact it could save someones life.

    However I don't think that having poor safety training necessarily makes someone 'unsuitable' to hold a license. It means there perhaps should be more training and probation periods before being allowed to join a club. The club I'm a member of requires around 4 months probation and attendance of training sessions before full membership and unsupervised shooting.

    How many licensed firearms holders do you know who are repeated drink drivers? Certainly in my area that would result in a loss of license so interested to know where that is deemed ok.
    It's just democracy.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Most of your post refers to a lack of safety practices, which should be pointed out to the club involved in no uncertain terms. It is the club's responsibility to ensure safety practices are carried out properly.

    I wouldn't hesitate to point it out to them and the club, in fact it could save someones life.

    However I don't think that having poor safety training necessarily makes someone 'unsuitable' to hold a license. It means there perhaps should be more training and probation periods before being allowed to join a club. The club I'm a member of requires around 4 months probation and attendance of training sessions before full membership and unsupervised shooting.

    How many licensed firearms holders do you know who are repeated drink drivers? Certainly in my area that would result in a loss of license so interested to know where that is deemed ok.

    An unsafe individual is unsuitable for a licence until such time as they can be deemed safe, clubs here are revenue focussed and pay lip service to any transgressions.
    In the UK it is a total waste of time reporting any minor trangressions, the law is too thinly spread to do anything, it would take a much larger event to trigger a response.

    Drink driving is rife here, rural areas with little taxi coverage,little or zero chance of being caught due to lack of police numbers, indifference to the law its an attitude thing, go in any popular apres game shoot lunch pub and there will be the old guard consuming more then permitted with guns and shells in the cars and pick ups outside,two months ago a Uni student had there gun lifted from a rack at a shooting ground,a week later the same lads took a pick up with a dog in it and still people leave there stuff left out while going for a whizz or a brew. All these folk are unsuitable.
    It would take a serious transgression that i had filmed or had solid back up from witness for me to bother firearms or police
    Last edited by MCFastybloke; 18th January 2020 at 12:51.

  24. #74
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    An unsafe individual is unsuitable for a licence until such time as they can be deemed safe, clubs here are revenue focussed and pay lip service to any transgressions.
    In the UK it is a total waste of time reporting any minor trangressions, the law is too thinly spread to do anything, it would take a much larger event to trigger a response.

    Drink driving is rife here, rural areas with little taxi coverage,little or zero chance of being caught due to lack of police numbers, indifference to the law its an attitude thing, go in any popular apres game shoot lunch pub and there will be the old guard consuming more then permitted with guns and shells in the cars and pick ups outside,two months ago a Uni student had there gun lifted from a rack at a shooting ground,a week later the same lads took a pick up with a dog in it and still people leave there stuff left out while going for a whizz or a brew. All these folk are unsuitable.
    It would take a serious transgression that i had filmed or had solid back up from witness for me to bother firearms or police
    Sounds like you live in the Wild West tbh.
    It's just democracy.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Sounds like you live in the Wild West tbh.
    1 mile from Bradford.

  26. #76
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    Sooooo... back to the shotguns are there any Perazzi owners here would love to hear from some who have upgraded to one and their experiences. Once in a great while I will see a K gun here but mostly Browning's and Beretta's one of these days I would love to check out a nicely engraved P gun.

  27. #77
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    They are quite common this side of the pond, see them often, some of them carry really lovely wood.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    Sooooo... back to the shotguns are there any Perazzi owners here would love to hear from some who have upgraded to one and their experiences. Once in a great while I will see a K gun here but mostly Browning's and Beretta's one of these days I would love to check out a nicely engraved P gun.
    Would love to do the factory thing after a friend did it and got a fabulous personal gun, Shot them on demo days and owned 3 K80's, not worth a jot when i hand in my card but feel lovely.

  29. #79
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    1 mile from Bradford.
    It's just democracy.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    Sooooo... back to the shotguns are there any Perazzi owners here would love to hear from some who have upgraded to one and their experiences. Once in a great while I will see a K gun here but mostly Browning's and Beretta's one of these days I would love to check out a nicely engraved P gun.
    Not an owner. However, whilst at a local clay ground one Sunday morning waiting for the stand to open I got chatting to someone who had just bought one. When I admired it he insisted I try it out. It was some while ago and I only shot less than a dozen cartridges with it, but I vividly remember the gun being so well balanced it seemed to have no weight and the shot felt it was going exactly where I was pointing - regardless of that being where the clay was or not.

    Like you I have only really shot 'Brownings and Berettas' and this experience made me realise paying the extra money can bring more than just fine wood and fancy engraving.

    Good luck with the search, I'd be surprised if you ended up disappointed with one.

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    Sooooo... back to the shotguns are there any Perazzi owners here would love to hear from some who have upgraded to one and their experiences. Once in a great while I will see a K gun here but mostly Browning's and Beretta's one of these days I would love to check out a nicely engraved P gun.
    I have a Kemen which is basically a copy of the Perazzi action, and whilst they are lovely to shoot the action design makes it quite ďbulkyĒ across the barrels and so they can feel rather big in the hand.

    Compared with my Cynergy, which has a fantastically slim and low profile action (though itís also 20 bore so obviously naturally smaller) the difference is quite marked.

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    do you really think it is for a GP to generate revenue? That's ridiculous. How much revenue do you think this creates per GP? The charge is there as a matter of principle. You want a highly trained professional to use their time so that you can have a form so that you can enjoy your hobby, it shouldn't be done for free. That would be a precedent that shouldn't be set on the background of current workloads.
    I've read this whole thread and I think this is the best post.
    I've worked for the NHS for 21 years.
    Of the £60 probably 50% will leave the doctors pocket in tax and practice insurance (we have to insure ourselves for stuff)

    I have charged £threefigures for forms that are "not healthcare" like job related screening and insurance stuff. I don't do firearms or shotgun forms.

    I think as a shooter you just have to budget for it in the modern landscape. GPs want their lives back, not more money, and that's part of the problem. I shoot with GPs, that's what they tell me.

    There is no right or wrong answer.
    Last edited by The Doc; 19th January 2020 at 11:57.

  33. #83
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    I have never heard of a Kemen but after googling they were once imported here but they couldn't gain a foothold and left in the end.

  34. #84
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    Iíve shot for a long time & main shotgun is a Browning 525. I was on a syndicate day last week & the conversation about how often people change/upgrade guns and realised Iíve had the 525 for almost 10 years. I have been hankering after something a bit more special so will start looking once the game season is over.


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