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Thread: London ULEZ Zone - Charge Notice

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    NOx levels at the roadside is, as I understand it, the primary concern that has to be addressed.

    I donít understand your questioning and I dislike any statement that starts with the word Ďsoí.

    Feel free to share your disagreement, donít be afraid to baffle me with science, last time I checked I still had the chemistry degree I earned in the 80s whilst working full- time in industry.

    Iím more concerned with the flawed logic than the environmental issues, Iím the antithesis of a tree- hugger.
    Wasn't having a go, just trying to clarify as I was getting a little lost. If the emissions at the roadside are paramount then I wouldn't have even considered mpg as that equates to economy. I thought you were digging deeper by saying the less fuel efficient car may emit lower NOx but is more damaging to the environment because it requires refuelling more often?

  2. #52
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    It seems my 2007 Subaru Forester, with a 2.5-litre flat-four engine and for which I pay over £500 per year in road tax is fine, while my 1997 1.8-litre MX-5 (which I think has better emissions) isn't. Unsurprisingly my 1958 Austin-Healey isn't free either.

    I wasn't aware of these rules, very interesting to know about them.
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  3. #53
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    Previously, if you drove within the LEZ with a vehicle that didnít meet the requirements and you failed to pay, you would get a warning letter in the first instance rather than a fine. I see with the ULEZ theyíve gone straight for the fine. I think they know it will be a good initial cash cow to milk to bolster TfLís coffers. A lot of Londoners donít drive anywhere let alone in Central London...this will catch out the visitors who are unaware.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    It seems my 2007 Subaru Forester, with a 2.5-litre flat-four engine and for which I pay over £500 per year in road tax is fine, while my 1997 1.8-litre MX-5 (which I think has better emissions) isn't. Unsurprisingly my 1958 Austin-Healey isn't free either.

    I wasn't aware of these rules, very interesting to know about them.
    I believe historic vehicles are exempt, so for now all vehicles registered before 17 Jan 1980...
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
    Just checked..

    My 2016 5.0 V8 mustang is exempt, as is the wife’s 2006 5.7 V8 Jeep Hemi

    So there’s your answer....buy a massive gas guzzling V8 and you’ll be in the clear浪浪
    Just checked our Jeep Hemi and it’s also exempt. Who could have guessed we’d be so environmentally friendly.

    (15yr old Cooper S and Z4 also fine although my ‘88 M3 isn’t).

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I believe historic vehicles are exempt, so for now all vehicles registered before 17 Jan 1980...
    That's my understanding too, as the owner of a 1970 MGB I have a vested interest!

    Back to the ULEZ thing, if the science is sound there should have been a significant drop in NOx levels following the implementation of the latest rules that penalise Euro 5 vehicles? Is there any evidence to support this? If NOx levels vs time are plotted surely we should be seeing a step change, although this data would have to be corrected for potential increases in traffic volume. My guess is that any change won't be statistically significant.......but as ever I`m willing to be proven wrong if the data says otherwise.

    I grew up in the 60s and 70s, buses and lorries used to spew out plumes of black smoke as they chugged up hills, we had lead in petrol, solid fuel heating, between 1972 and 1974 I used to run frequently at tea-time when traffic was busiest...........it's a wonder I survived! Seriously, we have made huge steps forward in terms of air quality, yet we're being lead to believe that the air in some areas isn`t fit to breathe and is causing real health issues. That's the bit I struggle with, are the current levels of air pollution really causing health problems and making people ill? I`m not saying we shouldn't take steps to improve, but I question whether the fairly draconian introduction of LEZ etc is the right way. Politically it suits some folks's agenda and it will always gain support from some sectors of the community, but does the science really stand up?

    I`m old enough to remember the move away from coal fires in the early 60s, the area I lived in was one of the first to introduce smokeless zones and everyone had to stop burning coal. Some adjacent areas, usually mining towns/villages, were exempt, and on certain days (depending on climatic conditions) the difference was staggering, with a cloud of smog hovering over a fairly small area......you could literally taste the crap in the air and it wasn`t pleasant!

    If people are genuinely concerned that the local air quality will affect their health, perhaps they should choose to live somewhere else? I worked for 35 years on a large chemical site at the side of a hill, in certain climatic conditions a temperature inversion would form, causing a layer of polluted air to be trapped. That was unpleasant and I wouldn't have lived close by, I`m quoting an extreme case, but the principle's the same.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    It seems my 2007 Subaru Forester, with a 2.5-litre flat-four engine and for which I pay over £500 per year in road tax is fine, while my 1997 1.8-litre MX-5 (which I think has better emissions) isn't. Unsurprisingly my 1958 Austin-Healey isn't free either.

    I wasn't aware of these rules, very interesting to know about them.
    Just checked mine - I was surprised to find it exempt.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Looking at the big picture producing a new car must produce more pollution than continuing to use an old car however polluting it is, this is a cynical money making scheme, if ďtheyĒ were that concerned about pollution or congestion they would just ban cars completely and improve public transport.

    There must be a room full of civil servants paid to invent ways of extorting money from people who have little choice but to pay, the Dartford crossing has to be the biggest example, the toll was to pay the cost of building it, but then someone had a brainwave.

    One day they will tax air.
    The more crucial issue for me is roadside pollution, that has little to do with the pollution generated in creating cars. Yes a total ban would be better but at the moment that is not practical or economical. Hopefully these measures will encourage people to change their habits.

    Public transport in London isnít the problem. Encouraging more people to use it is.

  9. #59
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    London ULEZ Zone - Charge Notice

    On the official site when I put in my registration it says my 1967 Lambretta would be liable for the charge, however because itís a tax free historic vehicle itís exempt from the charge.
    Last edited by Lammylee; 17th January 2020 at 13:15.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post

    Public transport in London isnít the problem. Encouraging more people to use it is.
    Do you REALLY use public transport in London? If yes, your standards are very low indeed.

    I've avoided working in London most of the time I've lived in this country but from the few experiences when I had to go, and from my wife's when she had to take both train and underground, I found a decent network of public transport but a woefully inadequate supply in regard to the demands.

    When she was working near Paddington, there was never a fortnight without major disruption on Circle or Hammersmith that resulted in her missing a train or two. My own experience is of very crowded trains, buses and underground when people actually need public transport, i.e. commuting as property prices in London mean that the vast majority of those who work in London live outside.
    And I am one of the lucky ones as Southeastern has (barely) acceptable levels of service and we benefit from HS1. Many, many others are not so lucky!
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Do you REALLY use public transport in London? If yes, your standards are very low indeed.

    I've avoided working in London most of the time I've lived in this country but from the few experiences when I had to go, and from my wife's when she had to take both train and underground, I found a decent network of public transport but a woefully inadequate supply in regard to the demands.

    When she was working near Paddington, there was never a fortnight without major disruption on Circle or Hammersmith that resulted in her missing a train or two. My own experience is of very crowded trains, buses and underground when people actually need public transport, i.e. commuting as property prices in London mean that the vast majority of those who work in London live outside.
    And I am one of the lucky ones as Southeastern has (barely) acceptable levels of service and we benefit from HS1. Many, many others are not so lucky!
    I use public transport in London everyday, buses, overground, mainline and underground. Yes there are problems but more often it means waiting another couple of minutes to get on a train and yes there can be some jostling, all part of the fun. Iím lucky in that my trains are rarely full and I can usually get a seat for the 15 minute journey. I prefer to walk as much as possible.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    I use public transport in London everyday, buses, overground, mainline and underground. Yes there are problems but more often it means waiting another couple of minutes to get on a train and yes there can be some jostling, all part of the fun. Iím lucky in that my trains are rarely full and I can usually get a seat for the 15 minute journey. I prefer to walk as much as possible.
    So how can you claim not enough people are using it? To most people, there is absolutely no fun in jostling, and the hordes of soap dodgers make it worse in Summer. You haven't addressed the multiple breakdowns or incidents that result in major delays.
    I had the luxury to be able to adapt my working hours to my perception of what travelling would be, so starting very early and leaving early meant I could avoid the worse of it, but only through (bad) experience. And this, from someone who used to live in Paris, where we had to put up with strikes on top. But I was only delayed once by a jumper and never because of a technical failure, in 15 years.

    Also you haven't addressed the plight of those who commute from further afar either.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  13. #63
    ď Do you REALLY use public transport in London? If yes, your standards are very low indeed.Ē

    I live in SE19 and say on a 25min train to London Bridge as I type. Over half my friends do not own cars, those that do tend to use them for long trips at weekends or hardly at all. Nobody commutes in one!
    Where I live has no tube (I moved there to be 25min on a bike to country roads) but overground and Victoria/London Bridge links.
    I have no issue with public transport, especially when I walk past the stationary cars sat in traffic.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Back to the ULEZ thing, if the science is sound there should have been a significant drop in NOx levels following the implementation of the latest rules that penalise Euro 5 vehicles? Is there any evidence to support this? If NOx levels vs time are plotted surely we should be seeing a step change, although this data would have to be corrected for potential increases in traffic volume. My guess is that any change won't be statistically significant.......but as ever I`m willing to be proven wrong if the data says otherwise.
    The ULEZ is a tremendous success. I think it's better than expected.

    Read the data here: https://thedeveloper.live/places/pla...vel-behaviours

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    ď Do you REALLY use public transport in London? If yes, your standards are very low indeed.Ē

    I live in SE19 and say on a 25min train to London Bridge as I type. Over half my friends do not own cars, those that do tend to use them for long trips at weekends or hardly at all. Nobody commutes in one!
    Where I live has no tube (I moved there to be 25min on a bike to country roads) but overground and Victoria/London Bridge links.
    I have no issue with public transport, especially when I walk past the stationary cars sat in traffic.
    +1 Iíd always choose to use public transport in London over driving.

  16. #66
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    +1 Iíd always choose to use public transport in London over driving.
    That was not my beef, we've both always done the same. My issue was when our esteemed member said there was nothing wrong with public transport in London apart from it being underused.

    I content that they are used to capacity, and more, and any increase in restrictions to car traffic MUST be preceded by an increase in public transport capacity (that, and sorting out the train mess).
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  17. #67
    I would, but impossible. Canít take paving/ sand cement/bags of rubbish etc etc on train/tube/tram.
    On rare occasions I venture into capital in rush hour, itís a bit of a liberty that youíre hemmed in like cattle, and no chance of a seat. Tickets are not cheap.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    That was not my beef, we've both always done the same. My issue was when our esteemed member said there was nothing wrong with public transport in London apart from it being underused.

    I content that they are used to capacity, and more, and any increase in restrictions to car traffic MUST be preceded by an increase in public transport capacity (that, and sorting out the train mess).
    You seem to have something against me so Iíll happily leave you to it from now on. Enjoy.

  19. #69
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    You seem to have something against me so Iíll happily leave you to it from now on. Enjoy.
    Not at all. Genuinely. I know we disagreed on another topic but I don't carry grudges across threads like that. It happened to be you who said something I sincerely disagreed with. It could have been anyone else, I would have disagreed the same way. I have the advantage of having lived in several foreign metropolis so have something to compare London to. On this point, the comparison is not favourable.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by guinea View Post
    The ULEZ is a tremendous success. I think it's better than expected.

    Read the data here: https://thedeveloper.live/places/pla...vel-behaviours
    What I would expect to see is a graph to show NOx levels before and after the change, expressed in a concise no- nonsense manner, to demonstrate that a step- change improvement has occurred. Thatís the way I presented data when I managed experimental programmes; sometimes the results were as predicted and sometimes they werenít. This report is a bit woolly to say the least!

    According to the data Iíve seen, the disparity between real- world NOx emissions and test results, which is most pronounced for Euro6 diesels, suggests that a major improvement wonít be produced by the latest changes. Other factors seem to be at play, possibly the volume of traffic has reduced, but the report is more of a propaganda statement than an objective report!

    Iím sure there is now a swing away from diesel cars amongst those who travel in the area, in the current and future scenarios it would be unwise not to change, but the manner and in which these changes are being promoted, along with the timeframe, us unfair and unreasonable in my opinion. The precedent has now been set and the rest of the country will inevitably follow.

    My limited experience with using public transport is mixed; on the one hand itís a very efficient system but on the other hand the overcrowding is unpleasant. Folks are expected to pay too much for an overcrowded service, which is far from ideal.

    Transport is a major problem throughout the UK, I donít think anyone has the answers. As a gentleman of leisure thesedays I donít need to travel if I donít choose to, but I sympathise with those who are spending large chunks of the day doing so.

  21. #71
    My 1999 Honda Integra Type R that I've owned for 16 years will be hit :-( as we live a mile inside the South Circular

    The ULEZ for the City was part of Khan's manifesto but not this extension. That was done without any consultation and will hit thousands. Khan has pledged some financial assistance but that will only be for the very low income who probably dont have a car anyway.
    So now I'm looking at either getting rid of a car that I only use 2-3 times a month at most or stumping up £12.50 every time I use it or moving home.

    Incidentally Shaun Bailey the Conservative mayoral candidate has pledged to stop the extension.
    Public transport is dirty, unreliable and won't take you point to point.

  22. #72
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casper View Post
    Public transport is dirty, unreliable and won't take you point to point.
    Neither will your car, unless you're lucky to have access to a private car park on both locations
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Neither will your car, unless you're lucky to have access to a private car park on both locations
    most of the time I do. I have off street parking at home and the places I usually drive to - friends, family, shopping, football will have the same.
    also there's no way I could contemplate using public transport to ferry my son around Kent and SE London for his rugby commitments with his kit and all.

  24. #74
    As an ex-Londoner, with 20 years+ of daily commuting by bus and train under my belt, Iím genuinely amazed how anyone puts up with it! - and this cynical tax, on cars we were all encouraged to buy just a few short years ago, will probably make as much difference as the congestion charge - which is nothing from what I can see. I really donít understand how encouraging people to get a new car every time you change the rules is in any way Ďgreení - most of the rich who live in London will just buy a massive electric Porsche or similar whilst your average Jo can no longer afford a car and swelters on the increasingly packed public transport system. Try having kids in London without a car - absolute nightmare!


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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    So how can you claim not enough people are using it? To most people, there is absolutely no fun in jostling, and the hordes of soap dodgers make it worse in Summer. You haven't addressed the multiple breakdowns or incidents that result in major delays.
    I had the luxury to be able to adapt my working hours to my perception of what travelling would be, so starting very early and leaving early meant I could avoid the worse of it, but only through (bad) experience. And this, from someone who used to live in Paris, where we had to put up with strikes on top. But I was only delayed once by a jumper and never because of a technical failure, in 15 years.

    Also you haven't addressed the plight of those who commute from further afar either.
    I rarely agree with anything St Just says but he is spot on. Transport in London is rubbish and expensive, smelly, late, inconvenient for working people and miserable for those forced to use it, as I was working behind Sea Containers and needing to attend meetings in the city and elsewhere. Walking in the pissing rain for 20 minutes and turning up like a drowned rat isn't a good way to start a meeting, nor is turning up smelling like an old sock after boiling to death on the tube in summer.

    Cars are better than public transport, and all the stupid charges do is cost working people money and clear the roads for the rich - hardly egalitarian.

    Also the "air standards" are made up and have no bearing on health.


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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by berin View Post
    I rarely agree with anything St Just says but he is spot on. Transport in London is rubbish and expensive, smelly, late, inconvenient for working people and miserable for those forced to use it, as I was working behind Sea Containers and needing to attend meetings in the city and elsewhere. Walking in the pissing rain for 20 minutes and turning up like a drowned rat isn't a good way to start a meeting, nor is turning up smelling like an old sock after boiling to death on the tube in summer.

    Cars are better than public transport, and all the stupid charges do is cost working people money and clear the roads for the rich - hardly egalitarian.

    Also the "air standards" are made up and have no bearing on health.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Where to start.

    If you don't think air pollution from cars is killing people in London then you are, to put it nicely, mistaken.

    The public transport is no way as bad as you are making out either. There are some parts better than others for sure, but generally it's cheaper than driving, quicker than driving and better for the environment than driving.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by anton863 View Post
    it's cheaper than driving, quicker than driving and better for the environment than driving.
    Thatís exactly what You are supposed to think. Well done!
    Make driving slow and expensive, parking unaffordable, and you can have one of the most expensive public transport in the world, the plebs will be grateful.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Make driving slow and expensive, parking unaffordable
    Cars have caused most of that themselves.
    A single occupancy box thatís far too big and expensive for a short inner city or urban journey. Plus it costs £10-50k and you keep it out on the street.

  29. #79
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    But whereís the evidence to show that modern levels of air pollution, which are far lower than in previous eras, are killing people?

  30. #80

    London ULEZ Zone - Charge Notice

    Public transport in London is hideous. Now Iíve had a few years away, I realise how my daily commute from zone 5 to 1 sucked the life out of me over 20 years. It wasnít the job, it was the commute!- Try travelling on a packed tube into Oxford Circus on a warm summers day wearing a business suit. Try leaving 30 minutes earlier than you really need to every single morning because of the inevitable delays. Thank god Iím tall - at least I avoided most armpits! - then at the end of the day many tube stations canít handle the crush so just lock the entrances until the platforms clear - for maybe 20 minutes to half an hour. Then thereís the eye contact avoidance and hiding your watch up your sleeve when youíre travelling on a train full of youths who seem to be weighing up their next potential mugging victim, the set jaw and glazed stare so you donít attract attention or look like easy pickings. If this all sounds paranoid, I genuinely hated the experience. I bought a motorbike and commuted that way for a good 7 years just to avoid public transport, but after I had a bike stolen and a couple of near misses on diesel spills I made a decision to get the hell out!
    But hey, millions of people seem to love the place and thatís fine, theyíre welcome to wear their rose tinted glasses and stay on their tunes and buses - but Iím out!


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  31. #81
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    Public transport in London is hideous. Now Iíve had a few years away, I realise how my daily commute from zone 5 to 1 sucked the life out of me over 20 years. It wasnít the job, it was the commute!- Try travelling on a packed tube into Oxford Circus on a warm summers day wearing a business suit. Try leaving 30 minutes earlier than you really need to every single morning because of the inevitable delays. Thank god Iím tall - at least I avoided most armpits! - then at the end of the day many tube stations canít handle the crush so just lock the entrances until the platforms clear - for maybe 20 minutes to half an hour. Then thereís the eye contact avoidance and hiding your watch up your sleeve when youíre travelling on a train full of youths who seem to be weighing up their next potential mugging victim, the set jaw and glazed stare so you donít attract attention or look like easy pickings. If this all sounds paranoid, I genuinely hated the experience. I bought a motorbike and commuted that way for a good 7 years just to avoid public transport, but after I had a bike stolen and a couple of near misses on diesel spills I made a decision to get the hell out!
    But hey, millions of people seem to love the place and thatís fine, theyíre welcome to wear their rose tinted glasses and stay on their tunes and buses - but Iím out!


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    Donít blame you, canít think of anything worse tbh. Used to think it was bad having a 45 minute drive to work, mostly through the countryside, now realise it was so much better than all that malarkey!!
    It's just democracy.

  32. #82
    20 years?
    Doesnít somebody on here have a line about madness being something you do over and over again??.....

  33. #83
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    I drove in for a work meeting on Thursday, 170 mile round trip @45ppm plus 24 hrs parking, still cheaper for my employer than if I took the train. Only by £2.45 though.

    It didn't take any longer either, parked in Wapping and cycled the rest of the way to near the shard.

    Sold my Saab just before the ulez came in as it was non compliant and I like to drive into central London, usually Mayfair/fitzrovia every six weeks or so and I bought a new car to enable me to do that.
    Parking is cheap at the weekend, the driving is easy, shopping is brilliant and I love the city.
    I intend to drive in for many years to come.

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    20 years?
    Doesnít somebody on here have a line about madness being something you do over and over again??.....
    When you live in London everyone thinks itís Ďnormalí. You earn more money, but pay (much) more for your property, pay more to drive, more to park, have a hellish commute......all part and parcel for living in such an amazing, vibrant, multicultural city. Donít mention itís all getting a bit overcrowded, unpleasant and dangerously Ďstabbyí. I voted with my feet and wish Iíd done it 10 years earlier. YMMV and thatís fine, Londoners are welcome to it!


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  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
    Just checked..

    My 2016 5.0 V8 mustang is exempt, as is the wifeís 2006 5.7 V8 Jeep Hemi

    So thereís your answer....buy a massive gas guzzling V8 and youíll be in the clear浪浪


    Yay, just checked my 16 year old 4.3l V8 GS Lexus and it is exempt. Meets the standard.

    B

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