How the F&$K did he survive?!!!

[cinnabull]

I doubt I would have been able to avoid the collision, and I’ve been riding 45 years. I’d also suggest the vast majority of road riders would have ended up the same as that poor guy. I simply think given the closure speed and lack of time to process whats about to happen, theres no way to avoid the inevitable here. I doubt any form of ‘counter steering’ or ‘flicking’ the bike would have avoided some collision. Large sports bikes simply wont change direction quick enough. I think the best you can hope for here is possibly to jump off the bike and hope the grass is soft, but again, lack of reaction time probably counts this out. Like I have said previously, the same thing on the exact same bend happened to my mate last year, but the car didnt travel over as much and returned to the correct late. My mate is a very experienced rider and in his words he effin sh!t himself. He reckons no way to avoid a head on if the car was fully on his side of the road.

As a side issue, Matt how and where do you actually practice these avoidance manoeuvres?

Stuart


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[M4tt]

I doubt I would have been able to avoid the collision, and I’ve been riding 45 years. I’d also suggest the vast majority of road riders would have ended up the same as that poor guy. I simply think given the closure speed and lack of time to process whats about to happen, theres no way to avoid the inevitable here. I doubt any form of ‘counter steering’ or ‘flicking’ the bike would have avoided some collision. Large sports bikes simply wont change direction quick enough. I think the best you can hope for here is possibly to jump off the bike and hope the grass is soft, but again, lack of reaction time probably counts this out. Like I have said previously, the same thing on the exact same bend happened to my mate last year, but the car didnt travel over as much and returned to the correct late. My mate is a very experienced rider and in his words he effin sh!t himself. He reckons no way to avoid a head on if the car was fully on his side of the road.

As a side issue, Matt how and where do you actually practice these avoidance manoeuvres?

Stuart


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At this point I'm just confused. I assume that everyone can see that at the point that the Subaru is clearly into the other carriageway (14) there is around fifty meters (the road lines - 1004.1 - in use are nine meters a dash and space between the two vehicles) and just under two seconds before the crash. You can also see that the Subaru is doing just under forty at the point of collision, while the bike, tracking its shadow against the final line is doing well under half that - he nearly managed to stop.

The scientific research I posted a couple of posts back gives unambiguous average data on bikers trained in countersteering swerving by 3.5 meters:

https://www.ifz.de/wordpress/wp-cont...016/10/ifz.pdf

Table 22 and 23.

In this case, they'd have needed to do less than half that to get past on either side. They'd also have had less time for obvious reasons.

You can see in the data that on average completing an emergency break and a 3.5m swerve are fairly comparable. This chap almost stopped before the Subaru ploughed into him. As such, based on the data for average motorcyclists above, I think an average motorcyclist who had trained to swerve until it was as reflexive as breaking and had opted to swerve would have got past with room to spare.

Here's an example of a large motorcycle countersteering effectively at speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgSktPy-orE

see about 1 minute in.

As for where I practice, the same place as everyone else: any empty roads; I assume everyone does.

[Stanford]

I know I wouldn’t. I may well have gone off the road, but I’ll take the possibility of a 60mph collision with something against a definite combined 100mph collision with a car every time. That’s why I regularly practice both hard breaking and countersteered swerves. Who else practices countersteering swerves here?

I don't know if we are getting our terminology confused but as far as I know, countersteering is not just an avoidance technique but is how most riders turn a bike (including pushbikes) at all but the lowest speeds (and even sometimes then).

p.s. it's braking, not breaking.

[cinnabull]

I still think that most if not all riders in that scenario would have crashed. I have watched your clip Matt, and its all very well swerving ‘violently’ at a given point to avoid cones on an unused bit of road, but having a car coming at you is a whole different ball game. Anyway, if you could have avoided that collision I take my hat off to you. We’ll agree to differ on whether most riders would.

Stuart


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[Matt8500]

I’m with Enoch, Cinnabull et al, there was no time to react and countersteer in order to miss the car (which is just steering at speed anyway, not some special skill!).

[Dynam0humm]

Can't say I've ever felt the need to practise countersteering. It's just something you do naturally every time you want to change direction.

[M4tt]

I don't know if we are getting our terminology confused but as far as I know, countersteering is not just an avoidance technique but is how most riders turn a bike (including pushbikes) at all but the lowest speeds (and even sometimes then).

p.s. it's braking, not breaking.

Yep, that's the one and yes, you are quite right. However, doing it self consciously at speed to very rapidly initiate a turn and recover from such a turn certainly feels like a skill that needs practice to me and was taught to me as a skill many years ago.

[M4tt]

I still think that most if not all riders in that scenario would have crashed. I have watched your clip Matt, and its all very well swerving ‘violently’ at a given point to avoid cones on an unused bit of road, but having a car coming at you is a whole different ball game. Anyway, if you could have avoided that collision I take my hat off to you. We’ll agree to differ on whether most riders would.

Stuart


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Cool, we disagree. I do think it's a skill and one that take significant practice. Perhaps you are all just better at it than me, but self consciously steering sharply and hard in the opposite direction to that desired to initiate and end a manoeuvre at speed isn't a manoeuvre I use at any time other than when I'm practising it and when I need it.

[Enoch]

At this point I'm just confused. I assume that everyone can see that at the point that the Subaru is clearly into the other carriageway (14) there is around fifty meters (the road lines - 1004.1 - in use are nine meters a dash and space between the two vehicles) and just under two seconds before the crash. You can also see that the Subaru is doing just under forty at the point of collision, while the bike, tracking its shadow against the final line is doing well under half that - he nearly managed to stop.

As for where I practice, the same place as everyone else: any empty roads; I assume everyone does.

If only that accident had been in an empty car park with cones...

[aa388]

It all well and good being a super riding god and counter steering around this but what does it get you? Oh yes his mate that following in the face because your on the wrong side of the road on a blind corner.


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[M4tt]

It all well and good being a super riding god and counter steering around this but what does it get you? Oh yes his mate that following in the face because your on the wrong side of the road on a blind corner.


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Actually, I'm pretty sure that in that situation whichever way I went, I'd have been off the road. I don't think I'm a 'super riding god' merely someone who practices more than one way of avoiding a crash. However, if I had managed to stay on the road, you have a point.

[M4tt]

If only that accident had been in an empty car park with cones...

Makes a great quip, but a skill is a skill. He damn nearly stopped. That shows how much time he had to manoeuvre. The data from the experiment showed that if he had time to break he had time to swerve - and that swerving would have got him out of the path of the car.

[Enoch]

Makes a great quip, but a skill is a skill. He damn nearly stopped. That shows how much time he had to manoeuvre. The data from the experiment showed that if he had time to break he had time to swerve - and that swerving would have got him out of the path of the car.

Ok Proff👍 You stick with your data from the experiment....

Unfortunately for that rider, he was riding in the real world. The news article stated very clearly that he was a very experienced rider. The fact that he’d spent a lot of money on a nice bike and proper riding gear shows he took his riding seriously.

But in your head you could have avoided that accident??

Carry on👍👍

[Tooks]

Why do these threads always go the same way?

Just agree to disagree, for gawds sake...

[Stanford]

To be fair, hazard avoidance by braking and or swerving is something that training does help improve (practice makes better, if not perfect) and it is covered in the machine control training activities offered by IAM.

[gmt 16750]

Well all I'm going to say is the Subaru certainly caused a lot of ‘breaking’ but, unfortunately, not enough ‘braking’.
Glad the biker survived is the main thing for me.

[M4tt]

Well all I'm going to say is the Subaru certainly caused a lot of ‘breaking’ but, unfortunately, not enough ‘braking’.
Glad the biker survived is the main thing for me.

Fair enough. To get it wrong after being corrected once is just embarrassing. And your sentiment isn't a bad one to end on.