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Thread: Electromagnetic Shielding

  1. #51
    It's good to hear from you AP and a shame that we don't see you so often on the forum.

  2. #52
    Grand Master sundial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    He's very well qualified. There are also others who advise it. Nonetheless, your views on it being an issue are well noted.
    In any case, I remain interested in suggestions.
    As are many homoeopaths … but even conventionally qualified medics who subsequently decide to 'go the homoeopathic route' have been brainwashed and need their bumps feeling.

    Don't believe quackery or the quacks who preach it … brainwashing is their mission and they take advantage of the gullible and the desperate.

    People will always believe what they want to believe … even it's a proven load of old codswallop.

    dunk
    Last edited by sundial; 15th January 2020 at 10:28.
    "The energy expenditure of most people's weekly gym class workouts equates to the reward of one large doughnut afterwards" Ö Prof. Tim Spector, 'The Diet Myth' author

  3. #53
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    Thank's jools. I hope to be around more though it's not always possible.
    Glad to see you are about.

    Thanks Dunk, entitled to your view although I don't agree re homeopaths as I've had good experiences in the past and there is scientific evidence backing some of their practices.
    That's partly why I'm interested in suggestions about EM shielding as though some claims may not be strongly evidenced others see support. Research is often trying to catch up.

    Cheers,

    AP.

  4. #54
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    For the sake of curiosity, what homeopathic practices are you referring to that have a scientific evidence confirmation ?
    The very foundations of the therapy (infinite dilutions) have been debunked. A major French immunologist lost his reputation on it; Luc Montagnier, who discovered HIV, lost his credibility when he tried to continue Benvenisteís researches.
    I am not saying we understand everything about molecular biology, far from it. But there is a difference between not understanding -and therefore not being able to apply a theory that withstands experimentation- and pulling a theory out of thin air that fails at the first hurdle.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  5. #55
    Master Kirk280's Avatar
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    Scientific evidence for homeopathy? OP are you the renowned scientist Prince Charles in disguise?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc52 View Post
    Before anyone calls BS, this coating is now commercialised by Trelleborg
    My knowledge of Star Trek is hazy but weren't the Trelleborg banished by the Nibble Pibblies?

    Good to see they have bounced back.

  7. #57
    Can you please share the evidence for homeopathy?

    Iím not aware of any at all in a peer reviewed medical journal so this would be quite a revelation.

  8. #58
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt8500 View Post
    Can you please share the evidence for homeopathy?

    I’m not aware of any at all in a peer reviewed medical journal so this would be quite a revelation.
    AP talks about practices. What I find interesting in homeopathy is that it considers each patient as an individual (instead of relying on statistical medicine), and will seek to determine the causes rather than treat the symptoms.
    It is also this approach that acts as an obstacle to our current scientific validation, because patients cannot be 'randomised' and consequently a 'control group' is virtually impossible.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    Thank's jools. I hope to be around more though it's not always possible.
    Glad to see you are about.

    Thanks Dunk, entitled to your view although I don't agree re homeopaths as I've had good experiences in the past and there is scientific evidence backing some of their practices.
    That's partly why I'm interested in suggestions about EM shielding as though some claims may not be strongly evidenced others see support. Research is often trying to catch up.

    Cheers,

    AP.
    Do you happen to know if - in homeopathy's vast pantheon of cures - there is anything suitable for treating excessive credulousness?

    I have a feeling it could be - briefly - very profitable for someone...

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post

    There is scientific evidence backing some of their practices.
    There is?

    This is a revolution in our understanding of the universe given that many of the concentrations recommended by homeopaths are at the level that a popular remedy such as Oscillococcinum (a flu remedy) made with duck liver is at such a level of dilution that there are sadly not enough molecules in the known universe for there to be any duck liver left in the final solution.

    I take it this revolution means that we have managed to detect the required molecule of duck liver in a nearby adjunct universe in the multiverse (when people have run the numbers we'd need 10320 more universes for this to be possible).

  11. #61
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    This is a watch forum. We as individuals will spend very significant portions of our income on out moded mechanical timepieces in the belief that they are superior to a cheap plastic quartz watch. We do this knowing that in every scientifically measurable way the plastic watch is better.

    I would suggest that if someone here chooses to believe in alternative therapies, despite the fact that every scientific study has proven them to be ineffective, we as a community are not the best placed to pour scorn.

    Instead we should be better placed to understand why someone may want to disregard all the evidence and embrace the woo. I mean, I [-]think[/-] know all the alternative stuff is guff, and i think it's lunacy to trust your health to it. But I also know the F91-W is better than any of my pricier horological acquisitions, I know spending on them was lunacy, but I still did it.

  12. #62
    Grand Master sundial's Avatar
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    James Randi o/d's on homoeopathic sleeping pillules:

    https://www.ted.com/talks/james_rand...uage=en#t-8446

    I have personal experience of numerous homoeopathic consultations over a period of 10 years with professionally qualified medical practitioners who were side-tracked from conventional allopathy into homoeopathy … and I also have experience of watching homeopathic pharmacists preparing their homoeopathic remedies. Also met regular patients who attended the then NHS managed Royal London Homeopathic Hospital on the same appointment days as myself. Our health improved following those consultations but the improvements had nothing whatsoever to do with the prescribed homeopathic remedies. Other advice given by RLHH practitioners e.g. ref diet, relationships, exercise, career and stress reduction was very beneficial. I came to the conclusion that homoeopathy and homoeopathic remedies are pure bunkum, balderdash and piffle … but will benefit those who choose to investigate and who want to believe that it will do them some good. Bear in mind that members of our own Royal Family have been and still are some of the most well known proponents of homoeopathy … but homoeopathy didn't remedy King George VI's or Princess Margaret's maladies … chronic ill health and premature deaths attributable to their addictions.

    dunk
    Last edited by sundial; 15th January 2020 at 23:21. Reason: typo
    "The energy expenditure of most people's weekly gym class workouts equates to the reward of one large doughnut afterwards" Ö Prof. Tim Spector, 'The Diet Myth' author

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeveal View Post
    This is a watch forum. We as individuals will spend very significant portions of our income on out moded mechanical timepieces in the belief that they are superior to a cheap plastic quartz watch. We do this knowing that in every scientifically measurable way the plastic watch is better.

    I would suggest that if someone here chooses to believe in alternative therapies, despite the fact that every scientific study has proven them to be ineffective, we as a community are not the best placed to pour scorn.

    Instead we should be better placed to understand why someone may want to disregard all the evidence and embrace the woo. I mean, I [-]think[/-] know all the alternative stuff is guff, and i think it's lunacy to trust your health to it. But I also know the F91-W is better than any of my pricier horological acquisitions, I know spending on them was lunacy, but I still did it.
    False equivalence - everyone knows fancy wristwatches are where prestige jewellery and excellent mechanical engineering meet - no-one at-all pretends they are more accurate, better value or more convenient than modern alternatives.

    Homeopathy pretends nonsense pseudoscience is a valid alternative to proper medical care. People have died directly as a result of this delusion - from conditions as treatable as diabetes, and many more have suffered shorter lives than they might have - e.g. refusing cancer treatments in favour of homeopathy.

    If we entertain quackery like this, we not only promote homeopathy, but in the minds of the simple and credulous we validate other madness like the anti-vaccination lunacy.

    Tolerance should stop where harmful delusions start...

  14. #64
    Agree with the above:

    The difference is making money from peopleís fears and illness, preying on the vulnerable and gullible. Also the word alternative implies foregoing actual proven medicine. Buying an expensive watch doesnít harm you or cause you to stop something that helps you.

    Itís a multi billion dollar, unregulated, industry that at best peddles ineffective but harmless wares (at least homeopathy just leaves you a bit better hydrated). At worse it actively harms patients who forgo proven therapies (e.g. private stem cell transplants for arthritis and autism allowed through a regulatory loophole), or Andrew Wakefield (who should be in prison).

    Steve Jobs and Barry Sheene are just 2 high profile examples of people who sadly got suckered into the lies and false science.

    Sorry for not keeping to watches but unless these beliefs are challenged then more people will be harmed. Back to ogling watches for me now...

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    AP talks about practices. What I find interesting in homeopathy is that it considers each patient as an individual (instead of relying on statistical medicine), and will seek to determine the causes rather than treat the symptoms.
    It is also this approach that acts as an obstacle to our current scientific validation, because patients cannot be 'randomised' and consequently a 'control group' is virtually impossible.
    It has been proven over and over to not work, and the theory behind it to be completely implausible.

    Most conventional medicine looks to treat the cause not the symptoms btw, from antibiotics to immunotherapies. With regard to individualisation, itís not necessary if they all have the same infection or cancer type, as you are treating the disease.

    Interestingly in oncology newer therapies are targeted to specific mutations/ tumour types. In fact the latest advances like BiTE and CAR T utilise each individualís own immune system to destroy cancer cells. CAR T is a truly individualised medicine made for each patient.

  16. #66
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    You do realise your last 2 paragraphs contradict each other, donít you ? :D
    Seriously, the director of my doctorate was the first man to realise a bone marrow transplant between unrelated patients. He wrote a book called ĎLíhomme qui voulait Ítre guťrií (the man who wanted to be cured) which was a novel, a pamphlet against statistical medical care, and a book where all characters were thinly disguised real personnel from the 2 cancer hospitals in Villejuif. I know that was almost 40 years ago, and science has come leaps and bound since. But there are still many things we donít understand so I am always careful not to dismiss out of hand what hasnít received a thorough but different explanation.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I know that was almost 40 years ago, and science has come leaps and bound since. But there are still many things we donít understand so I am always careful not to dismiss out of hand what hasnít received a thorough but different explanation.
    For Homeopathy to work would require everything we know about the physical laws of the universe to be wrong - none of our models could be true at any level.

  18. #68
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Jacques Benveniste lost his reputation trying to demonstrate that water that had been in contact with a molecule kept a Ďmemoryí of that contact. It didnít stand up to scrutiny.
    Then Luc Montagnier set up to continue JBís work because he claimed that he had observed results that were what JB predicted they would be.
    I believe itís codswallop but I am open to being proven wrong.
    Those 2 top researchers did not become stupid incompetents overnight. So it could be the Illuminati that made them do it, or they observed something that they could not measure or explain. Again, I donít think they got it right but I do believe weíve got some way to go before we really understand whatís going on at the molecular and sub molecular levels in biology.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    You do realise your last 2 paragraphs contradict each other, donít you ? :D
    Seriously, the director of my doctorate was the first man to realise a bone marrow transplant between unrelated patients. He wrote a book called ĎLíhomme qui voulait Ítre guťrií (the man who wanted to be cured) which was a novel, a pamphlet against statistical medical care, and a book where all characters were thinly disguised real personnel from the 2 cancer hospitals in Villejuif. I know that was almost 40 years ago, and science has come leaps and bound since. But there are still many things we donít understand so I am always careful not to dismiss out of hand what hasnít received a thorough but different explanation.
    They do deliberately, I guess to make the point. Science is not one dimensional unlike the belief required for homeopathy. Some diseases are homogenous and can be treated the same in everyone, some require personalised care. You clearly work in the same field as me so I assume you agree that theories and ideas are tested with an open mind and either proved and built on, or dismissed.

    I am well aware of the difficulties of conducting studies that fall outside of Ďstatistical medical careí. Itís still very possible to prove efficacy and safety though.

    Look at CAR T and the development of a truly personalised medicine, which amazingly still managed to show it actually works... unlike any alternative therapy.

    I totally agree that we do not have all the answers, and that nothing should be dismissed. Defending homeopathy however is simply denying a century and more of research showing its utterly useless... can I ask what your interest is in it?

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt8500 View Post
    Defending homeopathy however is simply denying a century and more of research showing its utterly useless... can I ask what your interest is in it?
    Might I suggest we are in the presence of at least one chess-playing pigeon in this thread...

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by earlofsodbury View Post
    Might I suggest we are in the presence of at least one chess-playing pigeon in this thread...
    Just five more posts and youíll be able to see a Grandmaster at work

  22. #72
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    I have left the field quite a few years ago. And I have genuinely no special interest in homeopathy as I agree it hasnít been proven to work. I just wondered what AP meant by homeopathic practices and, without his answer, found myself in the position to either pile on or try to see if indeed there was anything scientifically admissible that could come out of a debate, and I chose the later.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt8500 View Post
    Agree with the above:

    The difference is making money from people’s fears and illness, preying on the vulnerable and gullible. Also the word alternative implies foregoing actual proven medicine. Buying an expensive watch doesn’t harm you or cause you to stop something that helps you.

    It’s a multi billion dollar, unregulated, industry that at best peddles ineffective but harmless wares (at least homeopathy just leaves you a bit better hydrated). At worse it actively harms patients who forgo proven therapies (e.g. private stem cell transplants for arthritis and autism allowed through a regulatory loophole), or Andrew Wakefield (who should be in prison).

    Steve Jobs and Barry Sheene are just 2 high profile examples of people who sadly got suckered into the lies and false science.

    Sorry for not keeping to watches but unless these beliefs are challenged then more people will be harmed. Back to ogling watches for me now...
    You both misunderstand my point.
    I do not dispute that alternative therapies are complete bunkum. If they were not the "alternative" moniker would be dropped.

    I see no harm in people undergoing these "treatments", if they truly believe then there may be some physcological or placebo benefits.

    For example, I answered the OPs request telling him how to build a Faraday cage to block radiowaves. I also made it clear that it's a waste of time, money and effort.
    But if the OP has the time, money and effort to waste and it makes him happy then let him get on with it - provided he is clearly told that he's chasing a fantasy. It won't do him any harm.

    This is little different to spending income on an expensive watch. We all know the cheapie is better, that it makes no logical sense to throw money at the expensive trinket, but we do it anyway, because it makes us feel good. And feeling good is all that matters in this life.

    I would never advocate that alternative medicine is used instead of proven medicine, or should interfere with it.

  24. #74
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Jacques Benveniste lost his reputation trying to demonstrate that water that had been in contact with a molecule kept a Ďmemoryí of that contact. It didnít stand up to scrutiny.
    Then Luc Montagnier set up to continue JBís work because he claimed that he had observed results that were what JB predicted they would be.
    I believe itís codswallop but I am open to being proven wrong.
    They were subject to a BBC documentary about it - it was quite interesting but because they had an answer and were trying to get the science to fit it...



    So it could be the Illuminati that made them do it, or they observed something that they could not measure or explain. Again, I donít think they got it right but I do believe weíve got some way to go before we really understand whatís going on at the molecular and sub molecular levels in biology.
    Run that past me again...

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    Run that past me again...
    There are phenomenons that are disrupted by the attempts at measuring them. Quantic physics applied to molecular biology, but without an understanding (unlike quantic phenomenons that are theorised).
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    There are phenomenons that are disrupted by the attempts at measuring them. Quantic physics applied to molecular biology, but without an understanding (unlike quantic phenomenons that are theorised).
    Itís quantum physics. Any examples you could highlight to us?

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk280 View Post
    It’s quantum physics. Any examples you could highlight to us?
    No. It's old for me, and even when it wasn't I was not sure to have understood what LM meant. But I know he published, and was burnt at the stake for his conclusions. I do not know whether what he observed was validated, or not.
    And yes, quantum physics is one example I gave where measure will affect the phenomenon that you're trying to measure (sorry, French term is physique quantique, hence my mistake). For example, putting a microphone in a room to record a sound will affect the sound in a very small way, as some sound waves will be absorbed by the measuring device and others will bounce around the mike where they wouldn't otherwise. Completely insignificant on a macro scale, but we are talking of molecular level scale. I am sure there are plenty of better examples.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  28. #78
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    I actually broke up with a girlfriend over her belief in homeopathy. She was a loony in other ways also but her violent defence of homeopathy was the final straw.

  29. #79
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    I didnít understand quantum physics even when I was studying it! Itís witchcraft I tell you.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk280 View Post
    I didnít understand quantum physics even when I was studying it! Itís witchcraft I tell you.
    Agreed
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    There are phenomenons that are disrupted by the attempts at measuring them. Quantic physics applied to molecular biology, but without an understanding (unlike quantic phenomenons that are theorised).
    You are a bit behind the times - because people who understand Quantum physics have demolished that idea, I believe the quacks have moved onto nano-particles as "the answer" (Nuclear power was the answer before quantum physics).

  32. #82
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    Electromagnetic Shielding

    Youíí are unfortunately not the first to tell me I am behind the times. My 14 yo daughter mentions it quite regularly
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    ...he published, and was burnt at the stake for his conclusions
    To be fair, thatís one situation where large quantities of homeopathic water would have been an effective remedy.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk280 View Post
    I didn’t understand quantum physics even when I was studying it! It’s witchcraft I tell you.
    I thought it was just me that couldn't grasp it!

    Did a bit of reading about electromagnetic hazards from the 5G phone network that's coming, there doesn`t seem to be any science to support the doom-mongers apart from a questionable study where some mice ended up with heart tumours after being virtually fried with EM radiation for a couple of years.....oddly enough only the males were affected! The results were deemed to be statistically insignificant.

    Recently I considered buying a house that was approx. 60 metres from a big electric pylon, that didn`t bother me at all, but the previous buyers had pulled out when they had the potential risks brought to their attention. Again, when I did the reading there was nothing significant to support the theory, but this is another one that won`t go away.

    One of the websites that promoted the dangers of EM radiation also advised keeping in good health to mitigate the risks, That seemed like reasonable advice until I read further, one technique they advocated was regular chanting.......at this point I stopped reading.

    regular ranting's OK, but chanting?..........not for me.
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 16th January 2020 at 11:52.

  35. #85
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    To come back to the matter at hand, Italy has just proven that those those with a law degree do not have a scientific one.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ance-evidence?
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  36. #86
    Back off topic, hereís an example of quantum mechanics in biology http://hore.chem.ox.ac.uk/PDFs/The_Quantum_Robin.pdf

  37. #87
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    There are clearly many strong opinions here, and Saint-Just makes a good point regarding what is included in the area of homeopathic practices.
    Some include those that are accepted by medical science and can be found without much trouble, such as treatments derived from natural substances that are now often synthesised into commercial drugs but the active ingredients, etc, are much the same.
    Therefore, I'm more cautious in dismissing things that may be presented as homeopathy but may share a common root or practice with what is now medical science, including those that may benefit from more research.
    For what it's worth, I don't think the deviation into personal insults by some very helpful or witty.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    For what it's worth, I don't think the deviation into personal insults by some very helpful or witty.
    For this forum that's the standard deviation.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    For this forum that's the standard deviation.
    Shall we call it σ?

    "Your post has been sigma-ed" = "you were told to effe off"
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 16th January 2020 at 15:18.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  40. #90
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    Watch out S-J this is the G&D, but I do like that and might start using it.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    Watch out S-J this is the G&D, but I do like that and might start using it.
    Thank you, I hadn't paid attention. My apologies to those who were offended.

    I might have been sigma-ed...
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    For this forum that's the standard deviation.
    Surely only for the population with a negative skew?

    Tapatapatapatapatalk

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    Some include those that are accepted by medical science and can be found without much trouble, such as treatments derived from natural substances that are now often synthesised into commercial drugs but the active ingredients, etc, are much the same.
    I'm confused - that has nothing to do with homeopathy. That is just normal scientific advancement - the two are unconnected.

  44. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    I'm confused - that has nothing to do with homeopathy. That is just normal scientific advancement - the two are unconnected.
    Agree, not sure how scientifically validating a Ďnatural chemicalí is the same as diluting random substances to the point they are no longer actually present.

    There have been some amazing discoveries through experimenting; for example sirolimus, discovered in a soil sample from Easter Island of all places.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt8500 View Post
    Agree, not sure how scientifically validating a ‘natural chemical’ is the same as diluting random substances to the point they are no longer actually present.

    There have been some amazing discoveries through experimenting; for example sirolimus, discovered in a soil sample from Easter Island of all places.
    Yes, that's Rapamycin, used in stent surgery and kidney transplant, so called because of Rapa-Nui (Easter Island), where that Streptomyces producing it was isolated.

    I would put between these also the isolation of Thermostable Polymerases in the Yellowstone Geysers, from the bug Thermophilus Aquaticus. It has started the PCR revolution, and changed the face of genetics.
    .

  46. #96
    Wasnít aware of that one, interesting! PCR is amazing tech and, as you said, has allowed some incredible advances. Not least in cancer research and treatment, allowing more bespoke therapies.

  47. #97
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt8500 View Post
    Wasnít aware of that one, interesting! PCR is amazing tech and, as you said, has allowed some incredible advances. Not least in cancer research and treatment, allowing more bespoke therapies.
    In the area of personalised medicine / pharmacogenetics the current fronteer is on Next-Gen Sequencing - allows truly personalised treatment in the matter of hours. Of course only on targets validated by appropriate clinical studies etc, and approved by N.I.C.E

  48. #98
    Indeed, thatís my area . Iíve worked in oncology for 20 years and the past few have been really exciting. New potential targets are being identified all the time and NGS allows testing for multiple mutations from one sample. Drugs and therapies are becoming more and more bespoke. Anyway enough off topic ramblings!

  49. #99
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    And to say I was working on cross resistance between Adriamycin, Aclacynomycin ARhodamin 123 and the impact on patient who had been treated with Methotrexate...

    Georges Mathť was always convinced that the future would be in customising the treatment to each individual patient, at a time where cancer research was gathering data and hoping they could treat cancer Ďstatisticallyí.

    He died 10 years ago, in the hospital that had been his domain for so long. I hope he got to see that he would soon be completely vindicated.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  50. #100
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    Great thread.
    So who has managed to wee the highest?

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