Reply With QuoteLikewise, but his race conduct and recent media pieces lead me to view him as an arrogant spoilt man who has a misplaced opinion about himself.Originally Posted by Saint-Just
Let's see if he gets a decent seat and how he races.
I used to think that Vettel was impulsive but smart.
He just proved me wrong.
He may well be right when he says the car is shit un drivable. But, having made such a rookie’s mistake, criticising a car that finished 2nd with your teammate when you barely managed to bring it to the finish line in penultimate place is stupid, even if it is true.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Likewise, but his race conduct and recent media pieces lead me to view him as an arrogant spoilt man who has a misplaced opinion about himself.
Let's see if he gets a decent seat and how he races.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I thought Ted Kravitz explanation regarding the Racing Point/Mercedes was interesting, he said that the reason it is within the rules is that no cad data or drawings changed hands and that copying using photographs and measurements is within the rules, he then said that Racing Point got an FIA representative involved at every stage of the copy, so if they now upheld a complaint it would be against the FIA.
Bad workman always blames his tools, he won't be missed when he retires at the end of this season.
Indeed.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Vettel just makes too many mistakes. Lando fantastic. What a great final lap!
In F1 the "tools" count for a very great deal but its very bad form to blame them yes.
The fact that such a driver won 13 out of 19 races in 2013 and is quadruple world champion shows that F1 is not all about driver talent lol.
I would fancy half the grid to compete or beat him in equal cars.
I was concerned that back-to-back races at the same circuit may lead to similar results on each occasion, I think that we had sufficient random events to ensure that next week won't be the same. I suppose that some of the failures could be attributed to the use of kerbs and that the drivers are well aware of the risks that they take when using them, other than that I think I'm correct in saying that all retirements were due to parts going pop rather than driver error.
It's a shame that we didn't get to see Verstappen's tyre strategy play out, and the team must be gutted that they finished the weekend on a big fat zero compared to what may have been. Either driver could have finished on the podium, neither finished the race.
Lando Norris was the star driver for me today, not the unfortunate Albon who, in my opinion, won the honour on sympathy, though that's not to say that he didn't drive well. It was Norris' flying last lap, the first ever fastest lap of his career, that won him the 3rd step on the podium and he became the 3rd youngest driver ever to finish in the top 3, only Max Verstappen (a win in Spain '16) and Lance Stroll (3rd Azerbaijan '17) were younger. McLaren have also now scored two podiums in the last 3 races having last stood on a step over 5 years prior, and on both occasions their on-track finish of 4th was promoted to 3rd due to penalties handed out to Hamilton after colliding with Albon. Many would be happy to see McLaren appear to continue their relative success, particularly with the financial whirlwind that surrounds them. The obvious joy in the McLaren garage and on Lando's face - well, what we could see of it - was a delight.
Of Sebastian Vettel's 241 F1 race starts that's the first time he has finished 10th, it's the first time since 2014 that Hamilton isn't the leading Brit in the championship after the first race, and it was Hamilton's forth consecutive non-podium finish in Austria. My money is on him breaking that chain next weekend, he could possibly even win it, though with the way this race day panned out I wouldn't lay down too large a bet...
Last edited by CardShark; 6th July 2020 at 03:41.
Not sure about Hamilton’s penalty, Albon did virtually the same thing to him on the opening lap.
In any event, surely Mercedes should have instructed Bottas to let him pass and instructed Hamilton to maintain slightly less than a 5 second lead. This would still have given Bottas the win but ensured a 1-2 for the team. Not smart thinking here.
And why didn’t Mercedes give him the tyres he requested, Hamilton is a master at conserving tyre life when he needs to.
If the season consists of only 8 races then decisions like this could cost Hamilton the championship.
Hamilton's penalty was correct to the rules, you could argue that he was unlucky, LH was in front upon entering the bend, Albon went around the outside so then became in front, Hamilton held his line and hit Albon, the question is could Hamilton have turned in more and avoided the accident, I cant see that he would have hit Albon on purpose and risked his race.
There is a lot of discussion as to if other stewards would have made a different decision.
Interesting analysis video here demonstrating ferrari issues with straight line speed...certainly the sniff of a behind close door FIA ruling regarding the engine tech that was in question last year.
Half way down the page, 6.38 long...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sky...1s-austrian-gp
Last edited by Boss13; 6th July 2020 at 08:56.
Not quite: Albon was in front on the first lap, so Lewis had to give way. Likewise, he was in front when Lewis touched him. It is a racing incident as LH doesn't play dirty, but one where he carries the brunt of the responsibility, and it put an end to Albon's race.
I know that Toto did not consult you. Maybe he should have. Or maybe he considered the option, and decided to win "clean" instead of using that sort of tactics, even though it would have been perfectly legal, if not legitimate. He also has such an advantage that he is probably reasonably confident that next week end will be different.
Possibly because LH needed to be reminded that the tactic had been agreed, and they were sticking to it; or that due to the sensor issue he didn't really want his 2 pilots to fight it out on different strategies. In any case I think his concern is that Mercedes wins the WCC, and that ONE of his pilots win the WDC.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Surely, if Toto had swapped the two Mercedes around to ensure a second place for Hamilton that would only serve to increase their chances of WCC title?
Last edited by JeremyO; 6th July 2020 at 09:32.
I haven't followed all the responses on Hamilton's penalty, but two things spring to mind.
1) There was a lot of talk last year of leaving a car's width for overtaking, Hamilton (whether deliberately or not, probably the latter due to braking a fraction later than optimal) didn't do this and hit Albon. 5 seconds was fairly lenient as a penalty though, so not a massive hit.
2) The suggested shennagins of letting Hamilton past and then getting Bottas to hold up the field - Who's to say that Bottas wouldn't have been passed or even taken off in an incident if he tried to hold up the field? It struck me in the C4 commentary that the idea was quite fanciful and full of risk for a former driver to suggest.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
(don't call me Shirley) My point was that we still talk about Shumacher's title (from a time when team orders were banned) and TW probably thinks that Mercedes doesn't need that to win the WCC. Especially as their main rival scored null points this round.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
(don't call me Shirley
Have you worked out who their main rival is this year then?
My guess is RB, of course, but I accept it is not a given. However, they are probably the only ones (if yesterday was only a glitch) who can consistently challenge them, as opposed to episodically.
The qualifications were almost painful to watch, especially on a relatively short circuit.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The harsh reality is, if the Mercs didn’t have their gearbox sensor issues toward the end of the race, Albons Red Bull wouldn’t have been anywhere near them.
It was Mercs issues that gave Albion a chance not the Red Bulls pace.
And the safety cars!
... and both are part of the race. Without his problem early on it is possible that MV would have kept up with them. But we'll see: I believe this may have been part of the reason why TW was not too worried about another 1-2.
In fact, instead of enhancing the image of F1 such a domination may be seen by Mercedes as detrimental to the sport and their image. This could justify helping Force India (sorry, Racing Point)...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Probably too early to say given this is the first race after a long lay-up?.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
It is a very reasonable opinion, that I would share on a normal season. But this reduced season modifies my opinion as the consistency required to beat Mercedes will not come from a team that has not dealt with this level of expectation already; in other words, RB and Ferrari. We'll see after the race in Hungary, but even if Ferrari was to produce a Mercedes beater (which is not a given) they could already be too far down. And they haven't proved to be a safe pair of hands on the strategy front either, unlike CH.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Max was starting on mediums in a car that was half a second slower on a lap that is barely over a minute long. In a straight race with no safety cars and no mechanical issues the Mercedes would have destroyed him.
I’m not a Merc fan boy, my team of choice is thankfully once again on the rise (McLaren) but there is no denying the dominance and pace that Mercedes showed in that first race.
Seriously? Mercedes have pretty much blown everyone else clean out of the water the last few years, they've already dominated both championships - they are there to win. Are you of the thinking that they'll take their foot off the gas this season and not maximise their points scoring ability so as to be less "detrimental to the sport"? I can't imagine Wolff sitting in a meeting with the Daimler board putting forward a case for allowing other teams even the remotest sniff of a chance of closing up. Having said that, it would be interesting to hear Toto's own response should the question be asked of him, as to why they didn't swap the drivers.
Apologies to those not on FB however here's some interesting Sky F1 analysis on the Albon vs Hamilton affair, I think they've got it spot on.
https://www.facebook.com/17139841961...0674617692145/
That link to the Sky analysis works fine, even if you're not on Facebook, so thanks - I think they're right, as well. Hamilton's hard tyres were struggling, and he would have lost a lot of aero grip as well, so "racing incident with mitigating circumstances" in that one car was pushed on to the gravel, so one of the drivers must be at fault is about right.
I'm cynical about the Mercedes claims that their gearboxes were about to fail, but I only have the same information as anybody else not privy to Mercedes' telemetry. I think that they have such an advantage over the rest of the field on the evidence of this weekend, enhanced by their DAS tyre management system, that they were sandbagging. Red Bull might be able to challenge if the circumstances permit, and they can run reliably, and Ferrari desperately need their updates to unleash some speed.
The real interest, as usual, was in the midfield, and the scrap between Racing Point, McLaren and Renault should be worth watching. McLaren have had some desperate times in recent months, and yesterday will be a morale-booster for them.
I hope that next weekend's race is just as interesting.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Wow, congratulations on finally working this out. It only took 8 years.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
He's not covered himself in glory recently, has he?
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Will Vettel make it to the end of the season? If there’s no outlook of a decent seat and he keeps looking less than stellar, you might think he will throw in the towel. Nothing to lose, nothing to gain.
It was a shame for Lewis to get the penalty, but he took it on the chin again. I think he had little opportunity to do anything different. He was covering the inside and within about a second Albon was around the outside and going. They were both on the limit and so the inside can’t really tighten much more. The Sky analysis was really good and can see it was a fair and firm penalty.
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
Totally agree. One can say that safety cars are good for drama, the reality is the Mercs totally dominated the race and on merit Albon wouldn't have been within visibility of Hamilton when they collided, the aggregate margin they lost through the safety cars was crazy.
Just for my information was Vettel given a penalty for his coming together?
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
No. For obvious reasons.
Andy appears to have exchanged his usual MO of fawning over Lewis Hamilton for bitching about Sebastian Vettel.
For now, anyway. He'll soon revert to type.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
I don't think Bottas would have had to hold anyone up, freeing Hamilton from his dirty air would of allowed him to maintain the 5s gap.
But, I think Mercedes may feel there's a decent chance of it being a straight fight between their drivers. The points Hamilton may have gained, could prove critical in that respect.
Have to applaud them for not playing games so early.
Nope, I genuinely didn’t know, especially as it wasn’t discussed here, which was surprising given everyone seems to have an opinion on penalties and how they are allocated. However it still begs the question why not? Was it simply because Vettel penalised himself in the accident and LH penalised Albion? If that’s the case, are the FIA saying it’s OK to hit another car, providing you detrimentally impact your own race?
As for Vettel, he is a “busted flush”, but then I have been saying that for years. Now it seems others agree. Shocker!
Regarding Lewis, it’s difficult not to “fawn”, given he is the best driver/racer we have seen in the past 30 years (and possibly longer), who also happens to be a 6 times WDC. Only an idiot would refute that.
Alas the only person who seems to have reverted to type is actually you, so I suggest you jog on.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
He's back...
https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/formula1/53325412
I suspect that means Sebs retirement then. Can’t see him being willing to play second fiddle to Lewis or Max and the Renault seat was the only other half decent option.
It's impossible to tell, of course, but that was the suggestion (hold up 3rd place) from the C4 commentary team.
I was glad to see Bottas win, I expect Hamilton will return to form soon enough, but Bottas deserved his win.
While Vettel seems to be performing poorly at the moment, I wouldn't totally exclude McLaren making space for him if their car continues to perform well.
He's still a big enough 'name' to bring in sponsors and may just need some love to find his form again - It would be a gamble, but I can't see Norris' place being totally secure, podium spots or not.
M
Last edited by snowman; 7th July 2020 at 16:31.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Pretty sure that Lando's contract has him at McLaren for 2021 and expires the end of that season. Given both team and diver are on the ascendancy I can't see why they'd ditch Norris for Vettel, regardless as to the contract situation. If Vettel stays for 2021 my money would be on Alfa, Kimi's contract is up at the end of this year.
Many posts back I mentioned that Alonso may be making a return with Renault, I posted a link to the news. The article spoke about Liberty playing a financial role in the move, there has been no mention of it since however you've got to wonder.
You've finished stamping your feet and sobbing about Hamilton's penalty, have you?
I watched a documentary on Sky a couple of weeks ago, about my own Formula 1 hero, a driver with talent to spare, who sadly never achieved his potential in the sport.
You've probably never heard of him. Ronnie Peterson. A modest, honest man, who shunned the limelight, and let his driving do the talking.
My type of driver.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Where is Riccardo going? Is he guaranteed a seat if Vettel was available? I’d take DR over SV but Vettel is a bigger name for a team desperate for funds.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I also think that Seb would want too much money from McLaren who are struggling financially at the moment.
Ricciardo is going to McLaren. Sebs form has been too poor these last few years to justify the money he’s likely to be asking for.
His results haven’t been good enough to bring a sponsor big enough onboard that would cover his inflated wages and put a decent chunk of change in Mclaren’s pocket IMO.
Hamilton has benefited from incredible good luck in choosing to go to Mercedes just as they dominated the sport. If Alonso (or probably a number of others) had got that seat, they would the ones with the full trophy cabinet.
As far as the best driver of the last 30 years is concerned, I'd struggle to put him in the top 3. Schumacher and Alonso were easily better drivers - and neither of them was ever beaten to a world championship by their team mate in the same car!
To be fair, the only time Hamilton and Alonso were driving the same car, Alonso was at his peak and Hamilton was a rookie. Hamilton still beat Alonso over the season, by the smallest of margins.
I think many, many people would refute that "fact". So either there are alot of idiots about, or just maybe, you're wrong. He would be in my top 5, he's earned that respect, but I don't think he'd be in my top 3.
Seconded!
Cheers..
Jase
Any info yet about VER's electronic(?) failure.
Really, and yet Nico beat Michael hands down when they raced together at Mercedes.
Hamilton is fortunate in that Mercedes have built the cars they have however it was his talent that got him the seat, there's no denying that. He joined the team in '13 and won his first Mercedes DC in '14, he didn't jump straight into a winning team therefore it's not unreasonable to say that his input has been partly responsible for the team's success. Schumacher had a Ferrari team and car built around him, he had clear No.1 status and his teammate was only ever there as rear gunner, you could say that his speed earned him that position however Hamilton has never had that and still compares well to his teammates. Schumacher also had a win at all costs ruthless streak about him as well - Monaco '06, anyone?
Using the "lucky" argument against LH is a little weak, or are you going to agree that both Schumacher and Alonso won their respective titles simply because of the car they were in rather than any innate ability behind the wheel?
Please note that I'm no fanboy of LH (or of any other driver, not to the point of being blinded by them), I just feel that some of the points raised against him are unjust.
Last edited by CardShark; 7th July 2020 at 21:27.
I just read a interesting stat, last weekends race was the first time Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren have ever shared a podium together, considering those teams dominance at one time or another I think it’s pretty surprising.
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