Originally Posted by AlphaOmega
I love Goodwood races like this but this is hardly comparable unless we should replace today's F1 cars with Minis?
Despite years of mismanagement under Bernie F1 still produces some classic racing as seen last season. Sadly it also produces some terrible races on some very poor tracks, but there were also plenty of boring races where the leader lapped the field in the "good old days".
Changes are needed but some people have always complained that F1 is boring and this won't change.
There's no need for straw-manning.
It's absolutely comparable.
Just need less downforce and less mechanical grip. And more of the three types of oversteer - roll, power and lift-off.
Listen to the commentators watch Berger. They're thrilled that he's drifting a little. Yes, it's slower than point to point but F1 should be less processional.
Last edited by AlphaOmega; 30th May 2020 at 05:38.
Ok, whilst do I understand and agree with the sentiment, I do also find the need to compare F1 to completely different formulas on these threads to be quite tedious. This is a thread to discuss the 2020 F1 season not Moto GP, Touring Cars, classic saloon racing etc vs F1.
I still think the example of classic saloon racing above is chalk and cheese to modern F1. These are 50+ year old cars with skinny tyres, no aero and a fraction of the power output and cornering speeds of F1.
Slower formulas (like Ginetta Juniors) always tend to provide closer racing, whilst the fastest formulas will always be more sensitive to track design to allow overtaking.
Formula 1 can't go back 50 years, it needs to be fastest, most technically advanced formula with the best drivers otherwise it will be totally irrelevant.
I've seen a couple of those videos of 90's Ferrari's drifting but only at Monaco in Qualifying and I don't recall it being commonplace at the time. I believe it's the exception rather than the rule.
And don't forget that overtaking was still difficult back then and refueling made a lot of races in the mid 1990s to 2000s pretty boring with most passes taking place during pit stops rather than on track.
In recent years F1 has inexplicably avoided the open goal of reducing mechanical grip by utilising ground effects. I think that is changing to some extent in 2022 but I'm not sure it the regulations go far enough.
Desptie it's flaws I don't find modern F1 sterile, the 1000 bhp cars are faster than ever and it still produces some fantastic races on the better tracks.
Yes, fair enough.
Apologies if it sounded like the same old whinge.
I'm hoping that those of you who still love it will find a way to help ensure the energy is recaptured somehow.
Let’s hope that Williams don’t sell George Russell’s seat in desperation
It seems that everything else is open to sporting offers, so it's quite likely. Current speculation has him pencilled in for the second Mercedes seat, and Bottas moving to Renault, which also appears to be a ship heading for the rocks. Fernando Alonso is also in the frame for that particular short-term seat - I can't see President Macron managing to justify a State handout to Renault if part of it is seen by the proletariat to be subsidising a Formula 1 team while factories are being closed.
On the matter of classic "saloon car" (as it was called in the day) racing, I absolutely love the spectacle of mixed-class cars, with Minis against Ford Falcons, etc. But even then, people will do whatever it takes to win, and there are so many ways to make one car more equal than others, and earn the prestige and value boost that a win at Goodwood for example brings to a car, that temptation takes over, and many "Goodwood specials" are turned out for the Revival and Members' Meeting each year.
'Twas ever thus. Find a way around the rules, create a car with a marginal advantage, smile all the way to the Podium, bank the rewards.
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No problem, hope you can rediscover your enthusiasm for F1 one day.
8 races in Europe starting in July. Austria (2), UK (2), Spain, Italy, Belgium and Hungary.
All behind closed doors. But better than nothing. It would not surprise me if some additional races were added later.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
There are rules as to what constitutes a "World Championship". I believe that a minimum of eight races (which we have) in not less that three continents is required, and the eight races announced today appear to be rather Europe-centric.
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You are, as might be expected, quite right:
FIA Sporting Code
2.4.3 Use of the word "World"
2.4.3.b.i The cup, trophy, challenge or series calendar must include Competitions taking place on at least three continents during the same season.
F1 Sporting Regs
5.4 The maximum number of Events in the Championship is 22, the minimum is 8.
I'm sure that they'll find it within themselves to formulate a waiver for the former rule.
I still think it'll be Seb in the Mercedes seat, I can't see them getting rid of Lewis, but it wouldn't be completely out of the blue. If you remember they were thinking of ditching him a few years back when Nico won the WDC and Lewis beheived like a spoiled brat, it really annoyed the top brass at Merc and they did consider giving him his marching orders.
The second thing is that their car is head and shoulders better than anything else, and with the agreed freeze in place until 2022, they more or less, have already won this and next year. Why spend all that money on a number 1 driver, when I bet you could get Seb for cheap.
Lastly with Williams and Russell, I thought he was there as part of the engine deal with Merc, so if they got rid of him for a pay driver they would have to start paying for their engines.
I never said “World Championship”, I simple said the 8 races would take place.
That said, if you apply your rule then the 1950 Championship (maybe others) is null a void because it only took place in Europe and the US.
Breaking new Fangio only wins 4 world championships and not 5.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I think that within a 70 year period WC stipulations may have evolved somewhat...
Mexico have said they intend to hold the race as planned, so that's another continent added, and no doubt one of the Asian legs will be fulfilled.
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To quote the FIA...link:
Due to the ongoing fluidity of the COVID-19 situation internationally, the details of the wider calendar will be finalised in the coming weeks with an expectation of having a total of 15-18 races before the completion of the season in December.
I'd be surprised if Mercedes partnered Seb with Lewis, Seb's reputation has fallen through the floor in recent seasons and they also don't need the hassle of managing 2 world champion egos.
Do you have a source on Mercedes considering dropping Hamilton in 2016, I've not heard that before?
Agree with this. It'd be a huge headache for them and to me Seb seems more fragile these days and prone to mistakes more often than in the past. If they get rid of Bottas for 2021 wouldn't make sense to get Ocon in? I believe hes on a 2 year contract to Renault but I'm sure that can be overcome. George Russell in a couple of years when Hamilton retires.
Got any actual evidence to support this? I mean LH won the WDC in the previous year(s), won in the subsequent year(s), is a good friend of the Team Principle and of course Rosberg retired.
As for Seb joining Mercedes - Lolz! Wishful thinking for Seb supported, alas LH would still beat him in the pits and on the track. If Seb goes anywhere it will most likely be to Renault for a season, before tuning his attention to Indicar, Formula E or Endurance racing if he needs the money.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I only did a quick search, but I remember that the time the talk from both Nikki Lauda and Toto was that Lewis had directly disobeyed a team order and he had been warned before not to disobey the team.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formu...s-sack-9349583
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-f1-grand-prix
https://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOn...viour-20161128
From the time, I remember there being alot of buzz that Mercedes were going to sack him, I'm sure I could find more infomation with a bit more searching. Also lets be honest, if Nico stayed and they did fire Lewis, Nico would now be a 4 time WDC, the Mercedes car has been that dominate any top driver would win with it.
I don't share your opinion of Lewis, he's obviously a top F1 drive but he's never totally dominated a teammate without clear number 1 status, and I think Seb has dragged a uncompetitive Ferrari to nearly championship winning contention. Seb has huges weaknesses too, last season was rubbish for him, and of course he likes number 1 status too, so it'll be an interesting fight if it did happen.
Last edited by Happyal; 3rd June 2020 at 11:25.
I am sure I could find lots of buzz, opinion, gossip and rumour, but I very much I would find any actual evidence.
Plus ask yourself why didn’t they sack a Lewis if they were so certain Nico could do the business? The fact that LH beat him in the previous 2 sessions and would have won 2016 had it not been for mechanical issues and team order speak volumes. Also during 2016 LH lost to Nico by only 5 points, but still won more races.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Did you read the articles I posted, it was Niki Lauda who said that they were thinking of sacking Lewis after he disobeyed team orders, no one is bigger than the team.
Nico had mechanical issues too in that season, I would say they even themselves out over the course of the season and the only team orders were in the last race, and ignored by Lewis. The fact is Lewis lost in a straight fight to Nico and it's not the first time Lewis has been beaten by a Team mate in a straight fight either.
But it's OK to have different opinions, that's what makes F1 so much fun. I still think Lewis is a great F1 driver, I just don't think he's as great as the British press, some of his fans and especially Sky F1 make him out to be.
Keep telling yourself this if it helps, but simple facts are that LH has 6 WDCs to his name and 80 odd wins. He also narrowly lost 2 WDC. He has accumulated more points and podiums than any other driver.
But then clearly not good enough in the eyes of some.
As for Lauda comments. “Thinking about it”. Nothing like a bit hyperbole to generate a bit media interest and focus drivers. I personally never took it seriously and neither did many others. Given that Nico “retired” at the end of the year, it’s possible that LH wasn’t the only one they “thought” about getting rid of.
On the topic of the 2016 season the simple fact remains that Nico suffered one RET and Lewis 2. The RET that Nico suffered was in Spain when he took LH off the track in Spain (IMHO).. Other than that Nico no mechanical RET. Also don’t forget that LH scored 14 pole positions compared with Nico 8! Finally don’t forget that Nico had a 43 point lead after the first 4 races, but still only managed to win the WDC by 5 points, despite LH having one more RET during the season. LH’s engine failure (whilst leading in Sepang) cost him the WDC and gifted it to Nico.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Hamilton fluffed a lot of starts the season he lost to Rosberg, that had a greater impact on his points scoring compared to his retirements IMO - the team even redesigned the hand clutch system to assist him.
That's not to take anything away from what he has achieved, though.
Yet every other driver and team manager says how incredibly fast he is, yes you are entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong...………………..and I am not a fan of his.
I don't know why I'm wrong, I fully accept what a great F1 driver he is and he has incredible speed, I don't think there can be much doubt of that. And of the current drivers on the grid, I think any team would welcome him.
I just think he's over hyped. Whenever he's had a teammate who is allowed to challenge him, he's not done that great. Also he's never taken a car that shouldn't be winning titles and win with it, in my opinion the truely great drivers in F1 have done just that.
I'm certainly not taking anything away from him, as the guy above says, his stats alone mean that you have to respect him. And he has had some incredible perforamances that have shown his talet. I'm just not onboard with the flag waving bullshit that you get from Sky.
Staggering ignorance. When LH joined McLaren, he was partnered with Alonso (2 times world Champ) so to suggest Alonso was not allowed to compete against LH is simply stupid. Actually Alonso cost LH That season a WDC because he deliberately blocked LH allowing Kimi to win by 1 point.
When LH joined Mercedes he was partnered with Nico, who had been his team mate during his karting days. Again to suggest Nico was not allowed to compete against LH is simply wrong, born out when he beat LH for the WDC in 2016 (by 5 points). When Bottas then joined, again there was no suggestion of team orders. The fact that LH was able to beat him was because he is a better driver. End of.
I am not sure whether you are simply being a troll, know nothing about F1 or simply don’t like LH for you own personal reasons. Each maybe valid, but don’t try to rewrite history of basic facts.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Look, I've tried to be nice, but you are obviously a new F1 fan who think the world revolves around Hamilton, and either now nothing of F1, or "forget" the facts that don't agree with you. I've stated nothing by facts, but you just don't like them
What are you smoking when you suggest Alonso cost Lewis the title? You may or may not remember, but Alonso joined McLaren as the number 1, he had it in his contract. McLaren decided to promote Lewis to at least equal and at the end, number 1 driver. Ron Denis said this. So on one hand you have a 2 times world champion who has a contract saying he's number one, and on the other you have the whole team and their new boy wonder. I would suggest that it was Alonso who missed out on that title because of the games being played, Alsonso lost that title by 1 point.. But, Nah... you're right Lewis is the victem.
Where did I suggest Nico wasn't allowed to race? I mean he was asked to move over for Lewis a few times, but they geenrally raced as equals and lewis won some titles and Nico won a title. It wasn't one side, that's what I'm trying to say, do you want to ignore that Button beat him too?
If you think Bottas is allowed to race Lewis on equal terms, well I don't know what to say.
I've followed F1 for many years, Lewis will go and hopefuly we can go back to normal.
Err, I don’t think you have tried to be nice. You have claimed that LH is over hyped by the British Press, etc, despite providing zero evidence to support it. You have suggested that his 6 WDC wins, were some how engineered with the help of teams, which is frankly utter bolloc*s.
Regarding Alonso/LH read up the 2007 Hungary GP Q3 session. But you are right LH proved himself to be the wonder boy, because up to that point he had out won and out scored Alonso. If Alonso was the No1, he thought he was, then why didn’t he win more? Alonso Simply couldn’t handle the pressure his ego was feeling. A two time world champ having his arse handed to him - on track!
I cannot be bothered any more, think what you like, but you will be wrong.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I think we are going to have to aggree to disagree, as yu are just not interested in people with different views tha you.
I'll just leave you with a message for Bottas.
I’m with Andyg on this one.I think we are going to have to aggree to disagree, as yu are just not interested in people with different views tha you.
I'll just leave you with a message for Bottas.
Hamilton is, imo, the best F1 driver I have ever seen in more than 30 years of following F1.
He is the best racer I have seen since Jim Clark, yes I am that old. The best driver was Senna. The best tactician was Prost, the bigger cheater/ luckiest was Micheal Schumacher, the one who had zero Fu*ks to give was James Hunt or Kimi, the most arrogant was Alonso, and perhaps the most unluckiest driver was Mansell or Lauda .
But of course others will disagree
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Lewis has never had outright number one status at Mercedes. Nico had been at Mercedes for years when Lewis joined and Mercedes made it absolutely clear they were free to race. Nico would never have accepted lesser treatment.
The dynamic is a little different for Botas having joined after Lewis but again they are free to race and there is no difference in their cars. Lewis has only had favourable team orders applied a couple of times when he was already well ahead of Bottas in the championship on merit.
Lewis dominated Rosberg and Bottas on pace fair and square. Schumacher on the other hand was a great driver but always had complete no 1 status at Benetton and Ferrari. Driver contracts were different in those days
I doubt Nico would've won 4 more WCs after 2016 had Lewis been sacked. Ferrari also had a very fast car in at least 2 of the following seasons and although Nico's a good driver he wouldn't have ruthlessly dominated Vettel like Hamilton did.
Well done George, another win
Interesting news from Pitpass:
https://www.pitpass.com/67056/Silver...mpound-choices
Silverstone, being both fast and abrasive, usually demands the hardest compounds available, so the second race might become a two or even three-stopper.
You may also notice that Mercedes have had a couple of days with one of their 2018 cars at Silverstone this week, to give the drivers some seat time and practice operating with social distancing protocols in place wherever possible. Racing Point have a "filming day" using their 2020 car, albeit with running restricted to 100km, and non race-spec tyres. A shame that official timings won't be available to compare the 2018 Mercedes with what everybody considers to be the 2019 version.
The article also has links confirming that Japan, Azerbaijan and Singapore are cancelled, and Bahrain might host two races on different circuit configurations.
So, much like a group of ants carrying a twig, with two steps forward, two sideways and one backwards, all parties seem to be moving unsteadily towards a makeshift season of spectator-free racing. Which is better than no racing at all, just a bit weirder.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
I think Williams are quiet happy with GR
https://www.williamsf1.com/
Won the virtual LeMans as well
The boy has done well, though I'll be honest in stating that I only watched the 1st VR F1 race and missed all the others.
I did watch around 5 hours of the VR Le Mans though, including the last couple of hours. Very impressed with the amount of effort put in by both the organisers, the FIA, the technical team and the race teams themselves. It has certainly whetted my appetite for September.
I think George has done himself a world of good with the Virtual F1 stuff. It might only be a game but I think it's raised his profile. If I were Williams I would be delighted with him.
Same goes for Lando, Charle and Alex too, they have all engaged with fans and shown a personal side to themselfs. Great stuff from them, and hopefully will introduce a new generation to F1.
Meanwhile, in what appears to be another desperate attempt to raise funds, McLaren are offering the chance to buy a "stake" in the team:
https://www.pitpass.com/67081/McLare...-stake-in-team
The underlying message is that their primary stakeholders, the Bahraini Sovereign Wealth Fund Mumtalakat appear to have run out of enthusiasm for pumping more money into the team.
Two formerly dominant British-domiciled Formula 1 teams currently in a desperate scramble to raise money. It would be churlish to point out that there's a common denominator, but I'm sure that Sam Michael has been pursuing other interests for long enough by now.
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Bit unfair I think considering where they were in 2017 compared to being the best of the rest last year.
Unfortunately we haven’t had the chance to see how they would have done this year so far.
Other news of interest: Andy Cowell, the man behind the dominant Mercedes powerplant, leaves this month, to pursue "other engineering challenges".
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In Italy? 😁
Wishful thinking.
Cheers..
Jase
It'll be interesting to see where he ends up, I've got a feeling he's going to Renault, as they have been hoovering up good people for a while now.
I think mercedes have got him tied up as a consultant for at least 12 months.
Given that Aldo Costa and James Allison joined Mercedes from Ferrari, it's not beyond the realms of possibility. Ferrari went to great lengths to procure the services of Adrian Newey a couple of years ago, but despite the offers of great wealth they were ultimately unsuccessful.
In Formula 1, it's often a case of "It's not what you know, it's who you know".
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I'm not sure why Renault would appeal to anybody with any ambition. They have all of the appeal of a free voyage on the Titanic, and post Carlos Ghosn, the future of the Formula 1 team looks very insecure.
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The other long term issue with Renault is that the high level decisions are not made in the team, pretty much at the whim of an accountant or government official.
Am I being stupid, I don't get the Same Michael reference?
Funnily enough I looked him up a little while ago, as I wondered where he'd gone off to; Australian Supercars must be a big departure from F1!
Sam Michael presided over periods of unparalleled decline in the fortunes of both Williams and McLaren during his tenure with both teams.
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Just a feeling I have, I think Renault look OK if you wanted a challenge, from memory they have committed to F1 for the future so I wouldn't have any worries there. It's more if you would fit into their structure and if you would be allowed to do what you thought you needed to make it a winning team again. If I where him, I'd perfer Renault than Ferrari.
Talking of Renault, I think Danny Ric has made a mistake leaving them and going to McLaren. The McLaren of a few years ago is gone and I can't see a way back to the top for them. All the news about selling assets, and asking for investments from McLaren worry me, I really do fear for their future, and I think their rod car business is on borrowed time, I just hope the race team can be saved.
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