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Thread: Formula 1 2020

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    ^^??^^ Explain?
    Too many bends and not enough straights for overtaking?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Verstappen's first run on the new Zandvoort circuit today. Turn 3 appears very difficult according to Verstappen and have a look at the last turn. Sort of embankment, full throttle and DRS will open just before the turn!


    One of the reasons why Zandvoort lost its position in the calendar, was the concern expressed by many drivers about sand blowing across the track. I assume this has now been fixed

    Personally I am pleased to see it back. The FIA just now need to get Kyalami up to spec and back on the calendar.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    ^^??^^ Explain?
    The circuit is, so I read, quite narrow in places which will restrict overtaking opportunities. I can't find it right now however I've either read an interview or watched something on YT where even Max himself has said that whilst it should prove to be fun for the drivers on a flying lap the racing itself may not be up to much.

    Either way I'm still looking forward to the race there, I'm sure the locals will liven the place up!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichS View Post
    It looks great as a driver’s circuit, but I’m not convinced it will be a good racing circuit.
    Just watched the video again and I have to agree with this. There are few if any really slow corners which could offer an overtake under braking. Other than that it’s just the straights and DRS to get the job done.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    But why? The Tour De France was done and dusted, but Armstrong and US Postal was still stripped of the titles, just as Ben Johnson, pretty much every Russian who won medals at the Olympics, etc, etc, were stripped.

    So why not Ferrari. Unless of course there were not guilty of cheating, in which case why the settlement?

    As for the settlement, if it’s a fine, like the one McLaren got, where does the money go? To the teams, the FIA or Liberty?

    Without a punitive penalty, this sort of cheating will continue.
    It’s not quite the same thing though is it. These athletes were investigated afterward and found to be cheating.
    The FIA investigated Ferrari afterward and came to a settlement with them. The only way this will now change is if the teams who have got together take the FIA to court to see the content of the meeting between the FIA and Ferrari.
    If it goes that far, and the FIA is shown to have colluded with Ferrari to cover up cheating, then the sport is doomed anyway because the FIA is THE governing body of motorsport and as such MUST remain impartial.

  6. #106
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    I suspect it'll come out that Ferrari exploited a loophole, it was technically legal but not in the spirit of the rules.

    I wonder if the settlement came down to the FIA knowing something was up, but not able to conclusively prove it. Effectively tell Ferrari to explain what they were up to (without sanction), or the FIA continue to investigate and throw the book at them when they figure it out.

    Stinks to not release details.

  7. #107
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    FIA 'clarification' on the matter. Or not.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51755673

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    ^^??^^ Explain?
    Sorry - missed this response. It looks fast, flowing and technically challenging but there seem to be very few opportunities to vary the line and drive out of corners. Similarly, there seem to be single lines into corners, so difficult to outbrake and squeeze up the inside.
    I guess that could be weighed at any circuit, given the size and speed of the current generation F1 cars.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by westy View Post
    FIA 'clarification' on the matter. Or not.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51755673
    If the FIA couldn't prove they were guilty, then surely they're not guilty. In which case, why the need for a 'settlement' at all, and why would Ferrari agree to it?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichS View Post
    Sorry - missed this response. It looks fast, flowing and technically challenging but there seem to be very few opportunities to vary the line and drive out of corners. Similarly, there seem to be single lines into corners, so difficult to outbrake and squeeze up the inside.
    I guess that could be weighed at any circuit, given the size and speed of the current generation F1 cars.
    According to MV, there are at least 2 corners with more than a single line. In fact, turn 3 proofs to be a difficult one with more possible ways to 'negotiate' it.

    https://translate.google.com/transla...ig&prev=search

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    If the FIA couldn't prove they were guilty, then surely they're not guilty. In which case, why the need for a 'settlement' at all, and why would Ferrari agree to it?
    Sounds like a load of waffle to me - they were caught cheating. Ferrari have been at the heart of F1 for so long but they seem to be struggling lately on occasions. This smacks of a mutual agreement to disagree’ situation where Ferrari have shared the ‘cheat’ in exchange for impunity on this occasion.

    As somebody intimated earlier- Bernie would have probably taken a brown envelope and nothing more would be said.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  12. #112
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Just had an amusing thought - what if the settlement involved a payment to Ferrari? 😁

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Just had an amusing thought - what if the settlement involved a payment to Ferrari? 
    Given the interesting(...) relation between FIA and Ferrari not a strange thought, to be honest.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    It’s not quite the same thing though is it. These athletes were investigated afterward and found to be cheating.
    The FIA investigated Ferrari afterward and came to a settlement with them. The only way this will now change is if the teams who have got together take the FIA to court to see the content of the meeting between the FIA and Ferrari.
    If it goes that far, and the FIA is shown to have colluded with Ferrari to cover up cheating, then the sport is doomed anyway because the FIA is THE governing body of motorsport and as such MUST remain impartial.

    It’s Binary, the applications of regulations/rules is what defines a sport, any sport. Break the regs/rules and it’s cheating. No ifs, no buts.

    So either Ferrari broke the rules (cheated) or they didn’t. If they didn’t then no problem, but if they did, then any points/wins gained during this should be lost. If not then they gained an advantage and “prospered” at the expense of those drivers/teams who didn’t cheat. An that isn’t sporting or fair!

    I agree that the FIA must remain impartial, which is exactly why Ferrari must be stripped of these points during their cheaty phase, just as drivers and other teams (Tyrell and McLaren for example) were.

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    It’s Binary, the applications of regulations/rules is what defines a sport, any sport. Break the regs/rules and it’s cheating. No ifs, no buts.

    So either Ferrari broke the rules (cheated) or they didn’t. If they didn’t then no problem, but if they did, then any points/wins gained during this should be lost. If not then they gained an advantage and “prospered” at the expense of those drivers/teams who didn’t cheat. An that isn’t sporting or fair!

    I agree that the FIA must remain impartial, which is exactly why Ferrari must be stripped of these points during their cheaty phase, just as drivers and other teams (Tyrell and McLaren for example) were.
    Listening to people in the sport, it's deliberately not binary. There's wiggle room built in due to the complexity of the sport, so the FIA can decide what's within the spirit of the regulation.

    If they have a theory about what was going on, but can't prove it, I'm not sure what can be done. They've put measures in place to stop it happening, so unless the whistleblower has proof....

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post

    So either Ferrari broke the rules (cheated) or they didn’t. If they didn’t then no problem, but if they did, then any points/wins gained during this should be lost. If not then they gained an advantage and “prospered” at the expense of those drivers/teams who didn’t cheat. An that isn’t sporting or fair!
    Headline from BBC website

    "Formula 1 bosses could not prove Ferrari engine illegal"

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichS View Post
    It looks great as a driver’s circuit, but I’m not convinced it will be a good racing circuit.
    You are correct. Because of the flow of sequential corners, the racing line is quite narrow thus there are véry few places to overtake and with F1 cars it will be neigh impossible.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    Headline from BBC website

    "Formula 1 bosses could not prove Ferrari engine illegal"

    If they couldn’t prove guilt, then Ferrari were clearly innocent. In which case I am rather surprised that Ferrari agreed a “settlement”, just as I am surprised that Ferrari’s performance after Austin (when it was instructed to stop doing whatever it as doing) was so poor. Clearly this not “illegal” mod had a significant impact on performance.

    In fact if it wasn’t illegal, then surely Ferrari has a case against the FIA for stopping them doing something that was legal, and therefore was detrimental to the team.

    Hopefully the FIA will provide all the evidence to support this conclusion otherwise this will continue to rumble on and undermine the FIA, F1 and Ferrari.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenVrs View Post
    Listening to people in the sport, it's deliberately not binary. There's wiggle room built in due to the complexity of the sport, so the FIA can decide what's within the spirit of the regulation.

    If they have a theory about what was going on, but can't prove it, I'm not sure what can be done. They've put measures in place to stop it happening, so unless the whistleblower has proof....

    Sorry but if you have a rule book, then by definition it’s binary. You either comply with the rules or you don’t. The only exception to this would be if the rule book includes a rule which says the rules in the book can be changed at the discretion of the FIA book as and when it see fit. Lots of wiggle room there, however this sort of defeats the purpose of having a rule book in the first place. The FIA change literally make up the “rules” as they go along.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Sorry but if you have a rule book, then by definition it’s binary. You either comply with the rules or you don’t. The only exception to this would be if the rule book includes a rule which says the rules in the book can be changed at the discretion of the FIA book as and when it see fit. Lots of wiggle room there, however this sort of defeats the purpose of having a rule book in the first place. The FIA change literally make up the “rules” as they go along.
    It's fair to say that isn't how it works in F1, and never has been. It's far too complicated, and there's always some degree of interpretation. And the teams will exploit the interpretation that suits them best.

    Double diffusers being a good example.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    Headline from BBC website

    "Formula 1 bosses could will not prove Ferrari engine illegal"
    wrong verb, fixed that.

    After all: the FIA boss is Ferrari's former boss, Jean Todt. (His son is LeClerc's manager). The idea is that a lot of decisions being made by FIA are in favour of Ferrari. But often it's between just one another team and Ferrari. Now, all non-Ferrari-engined teams are in protest. That's new.

    Even if the protest leads to nothing, there will always be the suggestion of foul play.

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    wrong verb, fixed that.

    After all: the FIA boss is Ferrari's former boss, Jean Todt. (His son is LeClerc's manager). The idea is that a lot of decisions being made by FIA are in favour of Ferrari. But often it's between just one another team and Ferrari. Now, all non-Ferrari-engined teams are in protest. That's new.

    Even if the protest leads to nothing, there will always be the suggestion of foul play.
    That one position is worth £24 million to Red Bull alone, they aren’t going to give up without a big fight,

  23. #123
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    They've got special dispensation to enter Bahrain, but atm it looks like Vietnam might not happen. 2 week quarantine for Italians, so unless they reach a similar arrangement (enhanced screening) it'll be off.

  24. #124
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    I see the FIA World Council have backed the FIA decision re the Ferrari incident.

    It appears that the only team which has a seat on the FIA World Council is Ferrari, funny that!
    Last edited by JeremyO; 8th March 2020 at 12:01.

  25. #125
    Bahrain will be a closed race, I’m not sure many will notice the difference,

    Another interesting issue to come, will they race without Ferrari, if it was another team Ferrari would insist on it, this could apply to any of the races

  26. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Bahrain will be a closed race, I’m not sure many will notice the difference,

    Another interesting issue to come, will they race without Ferrari, if it was another team Ferrari would insist on it, this could apply to any of the races
    Doesn't the Concorde Agreement require ten teams to provide twenty cars for each race? The way things are going, however, the Italian based teams and Pirelli may need to stay at home in state-enforced lockdown, which would constitute "Force Majeure", and races would be cancelled, some at short notice.

    We haven't been here before.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Bahrain will be a closed race, I’m not sure many will notice the difference,

    Another interesting issue to come, will they race without Ferrari, if it was another team Ferrari would insist on it, this could apply to any of the races
    They've already said they won't race unless all teams are available.

  28. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Doesn't the Concorde Agreement require ten teams to provide twenty cars for each race? The way things are going, however, the Italian based teams and Pirelli may need to stay at home in state-enforced lockdown, which would constitute "Force Majeure", and races would be cancelled, some at short notice.

    We haven't been here before.
    Did they race when Manor couldn’t compete?

  29. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Did they race when Manor couldn’t compete?
    I can't remember if Manor were the 11th team? In their case, Force Majeur would have applied, as there was no possibility of them being able to race.

    The absence of three teams, however, and the contracted tyre supplier, is rather different.
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  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Did they race when Manor couldn’t compete?
    Very different. That was due to their own issues. What Brawn has said, is that if a team is stopped from entry, then the race won't proceed as a world championship race.

    Interesting wording......

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenVrs View Post
    Very different. That was due to their own issues. What Brawn has said, is that if a team is stopped from entry, then the race won't proceed as a world championship race.

    Interesting wording......
    At face value, it suggests that the race would be run with the teams that were there, but there would be no driver or constructor points, and presumably no prize money? Why would the teams even bother to attend the race, considering how much it would cost them? Contractual obligation?

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    At face value, it suggests that the race would be run with the teams that were there, but there would be no driver or constructor points, and presumably no prize money? Why would the teams even bother to attend the race, considering how much it would cost them? Contractual obligation?
    You're half correct. No WC points, but money unaffected. I suspect the organiser/promoter would still be paying, regardless of anything else.

    The structure will be as per Bernie. Whatever the circumstances, F1 gets its money.

  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenVrs View Post
    Very different. That was due to their own issues. What Brawn has said, is that if a team is stopped from entry, then the race won't proceed as a world championship race.

    Interesting wording......
    I think that you have to be careful with what Brawn said, he is quoted as saying:-

    “If a team is prevented from entering a country we can’t have a race. Not a Formula One world championship race, anyway, because that would be unfair,” said Brawn.
    “Obviously if a team makes its own choice not to go to a race, that’s their decision.

    it comes across as his opinion and not a ruling.

    Thinking about this, how could they manage engine mileage, having non championship races while having engine restrictions just would not work, it would give a massive advantage to the no shows.

    anyway looks like Oz is going ahead https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51789298
    Last edited by adrianw; 9th March 2020 at 12:22.

  34. #134
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    09 March...'No chance' of Australian Grand Prix going behind closed doors

    11 March...3 F1 team members placed in isolation over coronavirus fears


    Three Formula One team members have been placed into isolation amid concerns they may have contracted the coronavirus, as the decision to go ahead with the Australian Grand Prix comes under renewed fire. One member from McLaren and two from the Haas teams were evaluated at the circuit’s isolation unit, established by F1, after showing fever symptoms at the track.

    The team members have been tested for the virus and placed under self-isolation at their hotels. There will be significant concern if their tests return positive as they have been mixing in the paddock while carrying the virus, potentially seriously escalating the threat of the coronavirus preventing the grand prix taking place...


    Here's hoping that those three don't test positive and they do a lot of tests on others at the track before admitting the public.

  35. #135
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    Most countries have closed theire borders for travellers from Italy.
    Most countries are closing their borders from travellers from Spain.

    Australia is still low on the list of affected countries and the responsible politicians will be damned if the do ánd if they don´t. It is hard to take such heavy weighing decisions if the need is not widely seen as such.

    Now thinking a few steps ahead.
    Regardless of the race proceeding, if more cases pop up, either suspect or confirmed, will the UK allow all the UK based teams, affected or not, back in?

  36. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Most countries have closed theire borders for travellers from Italy.
    Most countries are closing their borders from travellers from Spain.

    Australia is still low on the list of affected countries and the responsible politicians will be damned if the do ánd if they don´t. It is hard to take such heavy weighing decisions if the need is not widely seen as such.

    Now thinking a few steps ahead.
    Regardless of the race proceeding, if more cases pop up, either suspect or confirmed, will the UK allow all the UK based teams, affected or not, back in?
    I think George Russell is the only one who should be allowed to race, then he has a chance of winning.

    Seriously though, the circus has to stop, no one in their right mind can see F1 as a priority, when the shutters go down they will all be stranded somewhere other than home.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Seriously though, the circus has to stop, no one in their right mind can see F1 as a priority, when the shutters go down they will all be stranded somewhere other than home.
    My point exáctly.

    It is rather late already. Any infected will take 5-7 even more days to develop symptoms. Meanwhile they will be at home, for most the UK.

  38. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    I think George Russell is the only one who should be allowed to race, then he has a chance of winning.

    Seriously though, the circus has to stop, no one in their right mind can see F1 as a priority, when the shutters go down they will all be stranded somewhere other than home.
    I think you're right, Adrian. Not about George Russell, although he's suffered enough already in his short career, and deserves a break, but the folly of running a global sporting series which moves from one country to another every couple of weeks while there's a global epidemic brewing.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    I think you're right, Adrian. Not about George Russell, although he's suffered enough already in his short career, and deserves a break, but the folly of running a global sporting series which moves from one country to another every couple of weeks while there's a global epidemic brewing.
    Pandemic now.
    Though that is largely a matter of definition and semantics, it does make a difference concerning liabilities, insurance et all.

  40. #140
    McLaren have pulled the plug.

    I assume the whole thing will get cancelled now

  41. #141
    The McLaren employee has now been confirmed as having contracted the virus, and the entire McLaren team has pulled out of the Australian GP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    McLaren have pulled the plug.

    I assume the whole thing will get cancelled now
    I'm obviously a slower typer...

  42. #142
    I would imagine the promotors are waiting for the local authorities to step in and call it off, so that various insurances can kick in.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    The McLaren employee has now been confirmed as having contracted the virus, and the entire McLaren team has pulled out of the Australian GP.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm obviously a slower typer...
    Given it's not one of the Top 3 teams, will be interesting to see if they cancel or go ahead anyway. If Ferrari pulled out it would 100% be cancelled.

  44. #144
    If the race does go ahead, expect a raft of protests from just about every team about every other team - Racing Point fielding what appears to be a carbon copy of last year's Mercedes, Mercedes' rear brake ducting, DAS and suspension uprights, Ferrari being Ferrari, etc, etc.

    And a potential drivers' strike because of Coronavirus, according to Pitpass.

    Welcome to Formula 1 2020.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  45. #145
    How this situation is going be managed will certainly be interesting. The Haas employees that were tested have all come back negative, thankfully.

    I'm looking forward to the race weekend however, if it is cancelled, then fair enough. Oh to be a fly on the wall ear-wigging on the numerous conversations being had.

  46. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    If the race does go ahead, expect a raft of protests from just about every team about every other team - Racing Point fielding what appears to be a carbon copy of last year's Mercedes, Mercedes' rear brake ducting, DAS and suspension uprights, Ferrari being Ferrari, etc, etc.

    And a potential drivers' strike because of Coronavirus, according to Pitpass.

    Welcome to Formula 1 2020.
    There has already been a ruling on Merc's brake ducts, however I take your point. Same old same old, though.

  47. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    If the race does go ahead, expect a raft of protests from just about every team about every other team - Racing Point fielding what appears to be a carbon copy of last year's Mercedes, Mercedes' rear brake ducting, DAS and suspension uprights, Ferrari being Ferrari, etc, etc.

    And a potential drivers' strike because of Coronavirus, according to Pitpass.

    Welcome to Formula 1 2020.

    Maybe they could just get on with the protests instead, it would keep the teams and officials busy.

  48. #148
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    Sky F1 Website claiming Aus GP will go ahead.
    BBC F1 Website claiming Aus GP postponed.


  49. #149
    Motorsport.com report - looks like it might be cancelled, not confirmed yet though.

    I presume that the meeting was held Thursday night, not Friday as reported...

    Australian GP set to be called off over coronavirus threat
    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...d-off/4743212/

  50. #150
    I’m pretty sure that it has been cancelled

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