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Thread: Formula 1 2020

  1. #801
    Hopefully the Mercs will take each other out and Hulk will win it

  2. #802
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    At a BTCC meeting a group of us fans were chatting with Nic Hamilton, when he was called away a fella remarked ‘I’m no fan of your brother but you’re a good guy’ Nic retorted ‘ yes, he can be a dick!’ Cue laughter all round, I know which racing I’ll watch this weekend, but hope the Brits do well.

  3. #803
    A very odd day today, with some peculiar "offs". It's possible that the track temperatures were unusually high, and the tyres were out of their operating window.

    Giovinazzi didn't do anybody any favours by driving back to the pits on delaminating tyres which flailed chunks of his floor away, and distributed rubber and shards of carbon fibre the length of the Hangar Straight. Both Alfa drivers must be under pressure, as the likes of Callum Ilott, Robert Schwartzman and Mick Schumacher, all Ferrari Academy drivers, occupy three of the top four places in the current Formula 2 championship. Kimi also had an odd trip into the gravel at low speed when he spun up the rear wheels early in FP1.

    Racing Point impressed today, Nico Hulkenberg reminding everyone that he may never have stood on the podium at the end of a Grand Prix, but he's still quick, and a safe pair of hands. One wonders just how much 2019 Mercedes DNA is in that car. Expect to see Renault's Alain Permaine make his regular trip to the Stewards' room at some point in the weekend.

    Red Bull seem to be trying a bit too hard. Rumours of flexible wings, bodywork, floors and everything in between have been flying around, and senior team management met senior Honda management yesterday, possibly for finger-pointing and recriminations.

    Cloudier conditions are expected for the weekend, so normal service will probably resume.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Hopefully the Mercs will take each other out and Hulk will win it
    Noooooo, the Mercs take each other out and Mclaren getting a one-two with Norris on the top step. Hulkenberg can have the remaining spot on the podium

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    They need something more like the BTCC where there is a lot of standard parts and restrictions to keep the racing close, success ballast which can be divisive is great because it prevents the same cars winning all the time
    You're missing the whole point of F1 then - It's a prototype championship open to constructors only* and as much about the car as the driver. Take that away and it becomes just like any other class of motorsport where the only barrier to entry is finance and the key to success can be as simple as buying the right car and driver.





    *Yeah I know, the pink Mercedes, Dallara/Hass and Ferrari's input on the Alfa, but my point still stands.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Dynam0humm View Post
    You're missing the whole point of F1 then - It's a prototype championship open to constructors only* and as much about the car as the driver. Take that away and it becomes just like any other class of motorsport where the only barrier to entry is finance and the key to success can be as simple as buying the right car and driver.
    *Yeah I know, the pink Mercedes, Dallara/Hass and Ferrari's input on the Alfa, but my point still stands.
    Except, this formula has become all about the cars, not the drivers, put any of them in a Mercedes and he will win

  7. #807
    Did anyone see the F3 race, big crash, if you have any doubt about how much energy is in these things, a very lucky boy, gearbox broken in half on impact.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Except, this formula has become all about the cars, not the drivers, put any of them in a Mercedes and he will win
    It's always been 80% car, 20% driver but that 20% is really important and you've still got to beat your team mate.

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Except, this formula has become all about the cars, not the drivers, put any of them in a Mercedes and he will win
    Most sensible quote on here for a while and perfectly true.

    It's the car not the driver...simples.

  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjc1216 View Post
    Most sensible quote on here for a while and perfectly true.

    It's the car not the driver...simples.
    As can be seen by the Racing Point Mercedes this year.
    Cheers..
    Jase

  11. #811
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    Looks like the race and qualifying is live on Channel 4 this weekend

  12. #812
    Vettels Pedals loose again, what are Ferrari up to

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchcollector1 View Post
    It's always been 80% car, 20% driver but that 20% is really important and you've still got to beat your team mate.
    Colin Chapman and Adrian Newey would agree. However drivers are also a massively important component, especially when providing the technical feedback to the engineers, going quickly (and consistently) providing Mechanical sympathy and have the balls to effect the overtake at the right time . Also if For example you look at the head to head record of Lewis and Rosberg it demonstrates the “driver factor”. Important given they were driving the same car.

    78 races head to head.

    32 wins (LH) vs 22 (NR)
    LH out qualified NR 42 vs 36
    35 Poles (LH) vs 29 (NR)

    LH also bettered NR in fastest laps, podiums WDCs. NR did however have more DNF.

    It was much closer between Lewis (Rookie) and Alonso double world champion. Both had the same number of points, DNFs, wins, but LH took 6 pole positions to Alonso 2.

    So clearly the driver is very important.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Colin Chapman and Adrian Newey would agree. However drivers are also a massively important component, especially when providing the technical feedback to the engineers, going quickly (and consistently) providing Mechanical sympathy and have the balls to effect the overtake at the right time . Also if For example you look at the head to head record of Lewis and Rosberg it demonstrates the “driver factor”. Important given they were driving the same car.

    78 races head to head.

    32 wins (LH) vs 22 (NR)
    LH out qualified NR 42 vs 36
    35 Poles (LH) vs 29 (NR)

    LH also bettered NR in fastest laps, podiums WDCs. NR did however have more DNF.

    It was much closer between Lewis (Rookie) and Alonso double world champion. Both had the same number of points, DNFs, wins, but LH took 6 pole positions to Alonso 2.

    So clearly the driver is very important.
    Clearly that’s rubbish, when you have a car that is that much quicker around a race track than any other car in the field whatever driver is in, it is the car, look what happens when Russell drove Hamilton’s car, oh he was fastest, point proved end of argument

  15. #815
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    Ayrton Senna said the only driver who could beat him if they were in identical cars was Mansell, not because he was a better driver but because he had bigger cojones.

  16. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Clearly that’s rubbish, when you have a car that is that much quicker around a race track than any other car in the field whatever driver is in, it is the car, look what happens when Russell drove Hamilton’s car, oh he was fastest, point proved end of argument
    I’m guessing not but you make it sound as if Russell is ‘just an average driver stuck in the best car’ when he drove Lewis’ car.
    We all know he’s anything but that. It’s actually the opposite. He’s a fantastic driver handicapped by a crap car.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Clearly that’s rubbish, when you have a car that is that much quicker around a race track than any other car in the field whatever driver is in, it is the car, look what happens when Russell drove Hamilton’s car, oh he was fastest, point proved end of argument
    Like I said it's 80 car /20 driver. If you think the driver makes no difference why did Bottas finish behind a Ferrari or Verstappen on several occasions last season when Lewis won?

    Russell is a potentially great driver but finishing top in a testing session doesn't mean he could just go straight into the Mercedes in a race and beat Verstappen, etc.
    Last edited by watchcollector1; 1st August 2020 at 13:46.

  18. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Clearly that’s rubbish, when you have a car that is that much quicker around a race track than any other car in the field whatever driver is in, it is the car, look what happens when Russell drove Hamilton’s car, oh he was fastest, point proved end of argument
    Why is it rubbish? Previously you stated it was ALL about the cars, I just wanted to demonstrate it wasn’t.

    As for Russell, great driver, but driving fast for a few laps is one thing. Racing other drivers on a congested track for nearly 2 hours and 200 miles is something else. Although I would still fancy LH to beat him in a straight head to head simply because of LH experience, physical and mental strength and better car management. The sum of all parts.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Why is it rubbish? Previously you stated it was ALL about the cars, I just wanted to demonstrate it wasn’t.

    As for Russell, great driver, but driving fast for a few laps is one thing. Racing other drivers on a congested track for nearly 2 hours and 200 miles is something else. Although I would still fancy LH to beat him in a straight head to head simply because of LH experience, physical and mental strength and better car management. The sum of all parts.
    My point is, it is the car, since 2013 Mercedes have dominated, won most races and had nearly fifty one-two’s and before 2013 it was Red Bull for four years, it isn’t the driver, even in a wet race the Mercs disappear down the road.

    Looking back the statistics will not tell the whole story,

  20. #820
    Very few people would disagree that the complete physical package that makes up a F1 car makes a difference as to where it would typically finish a race however we're in danger of declaring the Driver's Championship pointless(sic) if it's all about the car. Or are we going to agree that multiple championship winners such as Vettel, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Co. were just passengers and played no part in their victories?

  21. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    My point is, it is the car, since 2013 Mercedes have dominated, won most races and had nearly fifty one-two’s and before 2013 it was Red Bull for four years, it isn’t the driver, even in a wet race the Mercs disappear down the road.

    Looking back the statistics will not tell the whole story,
    And what about the other races where Mercedes didn’t get a one-two? I do however accept the Mercedes Car dominates, just as other constructors have dominated in the past, however perhaps what makes it feel more dominate is that we have two dominate car, being driven by 2 excellent drivers. Drivers who rarely make mistakes. Although LH did just manage to spin. To err is human.

    Albon had a bit of a shocker and the Racing Point cars have disappointed. Renaults are running well as are McLaren.
    Last edited by Andyg; 1st August 2020 at 15:14.

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  22. #822
    So the gap from second to third is larger than the gap between third and tenth, and the Merc is breaking the outright lap record on every track it goes on, but it’s not about the car!

  23. #823
    Superb lap by Hamilton.

  24. #824
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    Superb lap by Mercedes, it's a class above at the moment.

  25. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    So the gap from second to third is larger than the gap between third and tenth, and the Merc is breaking the outright lap record on every track it goes on, but it’s not about the car!
    It´s worse; Merc on pole in Silverstone since 2013...
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  26. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    So the gap from second to third is larger than the gap between third and tenth, and the Merc is breaking the outright lap record on every track it goes on, but it’s not about the car!
    Yet if you or I were driving the Mercedes we won’t be breaking any records would we. I would have most likely stuffed it driving out of the garage.

    But don’t forget that LH was 0.3 seconds quicker over a lap than VB who was driving exactly the same car. Wow! 0.3 in F1 is a lifetime. Over 52 laps LH will have a 15 second lead if he is able to maintain it. In fact LH/Mercedes should lap everyone up to 4th assuming no safety cars.

    However rather than criticising Mercedes for being so dominate, perhaps the finger needs to be pointed at the other teams for not getting their sh*t together, for other drivers for failing to perform (Albon/Vettel to name two) and for the FIA for not levelling the playing field.

    What Mercedes are doing now is akin to what Cooper did when he put the engine in the back of the car.

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  27. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    It´s worse; Merc on pole in Silverstone since 2013...
    Ferrari has won at Monza 18 times. And your point is what?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  28. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    It´s worse; Merc on pole in Silverstone since 2013...
    I see that the fact that they're the first team ever to win 8 straight poles at the same circuit as quite an achievement. However let us all pick up on, and maybe even create, negatives.

  29. #829
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    Obviously conditions change etc. But for red bull and Ferrari to be slower than last years cars, shows they've badly dropped the ball.

  30. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happyal View Post
    Superb lap by Mercedes, it's a class above at the moment.
    I think even my driving ability could put a Mercedes on pole.

  31. #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjc1216 View Post
    I think even my driving ability could put a Mercedes on pole.
    That’s funny - lolz.

    But do you think MV, SV, CLC, LN, DR could have put it pole, because VB couldn’t.

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  32. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Yet if you or I were driving the Mercedes we won’t be breaking any records would we. I would have most likely stuffed it driving out of the garage.

    But don’t forget that LH was 0.3 seconds quicker over a lap than VB who was driving exactly the same car. Wow! 0.3 in F1 is a lifetime. Over 52 laps LH will have a 15 second lead if he is able to maintain it. In fact LH/Mercedes should lap everyone up to 4th assuming no safety cars.

    However rather than criticising Mercedes for being so dominate, perhaps the finger needs to be pointed at the other teams for not getting their sh*t together, for other drivers for failing to perform (Albon/Vettel to name two) and for the FIA for not levelling the playing field.

    What Mercedes are doing now is akin to what Cooper did when he put the engine in the back of the car.
    Couldn’t agree more.

    The point of the sport is to be the fastest not to hobble the better teams to give parity throughout. That’s not how progress works.

  33. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    Couldn’t agree more.

    The point of the sport is to be the fastest not to hobble the better teams to give parity throughout. That’s not how progress works.
    Then why do other classes have BOP, I seem to remember in the early 90s Mansell qualifying 2.7 seconds ahead and they did something about it

  34. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Then why do other classes have BOP, I seem to remember in the early 90s Mansell qualifying 2.7 seconds ahead and they did something about it
    What is BOP?

    F1 is supposed th be the pinnacle of motor sport and I don’t think handicapping teams is the way to go.

    When Red Bull was dominant, Horner always said it was up to the other teams to catch up with them. I could not disagree with him then and it still stands imo.

  35. #835
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    Yes, F1 being dominated by one team/manufacturer is nothing new.

    We've had Ferrari, McLaren and Williams eras in the past, but none had quite the resources of Mercedes.

    Hamilton is clearly a good driver with the best car. He wouldn't be on pole in the Ferrari or Red Bull, but he is the best Mercedes driver, especially in races.

    I find him hard to warm to, but you can't seriously challenge his ability.

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  36. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    What is BOP?
    Balance of performance. For example, the BTCC use a weight handicap system, the more successful someone is the more weight is added to the car to slow them down. Air intake restrictors (that limit power output) are another common form of BOP measures.

  37. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    Balance of performance. For example, the BTCC use a weight handicap system, the more successful someone is the more weight is added to the car to slow them down. Air intake restrictors (that limit power output) are another common form of BOP measures.
    Thanks for explanation, that just seems to stifle innovation to me. Guess they are thinking the show must come first.
    Last edited by JeremyO; 1st August 2020 at 19:07.

  38. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    Balance of performance. For example, the BTCC use a weight handicap system, the more successful someone is the more weight is added to the car to slow them down. Air intake restrictors (that limit power output) are another common form of BOP measures.
    F1 have lots of ways to reduce and restrict power, the problem it seems is that it’s applied to all teams, rather than just the winning teams.

    However I think I might have found the reason for Mercedes dominance. Just compare the qualifying times in 2020 and 2019

    LH - 1243 compared to 1251 - so approx 0.8 sec quicker.
    VB - 1246 compared to 1251 - so approx 0.5 sec quicker
    MV - 1253compared to 1252 - so approx 0.1 sec SLOWER
    CLC - 1254 compared to 1251 - so approx 0.3 sec SLOWER
    LN - 1257compared to 1262 - so approx 0.5 sec quicker.

    So whilst it clear that Mercedes (and McLaren) have up their game. RedBull and Ferrari have actually gone backwards. Shame on them.

    It would be interesting to see what the deltas were in Austria and Hungary. Is this a one off or are Redbull/Ferrari are simply slower than 2019?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  39. #839
    Someone posted this on PH

    Qualifying 2020 vs 2019

    Racing Point-1.089
    Mercedes-0.790
    Williams-0.697
    McLaren-0.442
    Renault-0.173
    Red Bull-0.049
    Alpha Tauri-0.156
    Ferrari-0.255
    Haas -0.401
    Alfa Romeo-0.617

  40. #840
    FIA at it again, Russell gets a penalty for not lifting enough but Leclerc doesn’t get one for the unsafe release

  41. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    FIA at it again, Russell gets a penalty for not lifting enough but Leclerc doesn’t get one for the unsafe release
    Surely that would be the race stewards not the FIA?

  42. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    FIA at it again, Russell gets a penalty for not lifting enough but Leclerc doesn’t get one for the unsafe release
    Well at least they are consistent. According to the stewards they did not consider it “particularly unsafe”. Not sure DR would have agreed given he almost ran into the back of Stroll.

    Ocon also avoided a penalty for getting in Kimi‘s way during Q1.

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  43. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    My point is, it is the car, since 2013 Mercedes have dominated, won most races and had nearly fifty one-two’s and before 2013 it was Red Bull for four years, it isn’t the driver, even in a wet race the Mercs disappear down the road.

    Looking back the statistics will not tell the whole story,
    Just to correct you, Vettel won the last of his 4 WDC's in 2013 driving for Red Bull and the hybrid era which marked the beginning of the Merc domination years began in 2014.

  44. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~dadam02~ View Post
    Just to correct you, Vettel won the last of his 4 WDC's in 2013 driving for Red Bull and the hybrid era which marked the beginning of the Merc domination years began in 2014.
    A bit like when Ferrari dominated F1 during the team orders and Bridgestone era. .

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  45. #845
    The more I think about it BOP is the answer, the regulations and policing them could be simpler. Everything would be much closer the BOP could be based on the last race so very difficult to sandbag and maybe the cars should have to start under their own steam.

  46. #846
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    BOP is an interesting concept, not for it myself. Look like FIA were pushing the reverse grid idea, albeit Mercedes blocked that from happening this year. I can certainly see a shift to reverse grid at some point, something like what is happening in F2 perhaps...not sure I agree with it myself. All non-Mercedes teams just need to up their game! This may happen naturally after the rule change.

  47. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by Boss13 View Post
    BOP not sure I agree with it myself. All non-Mercedes teams just need to up their game! This may happen naturally after the rule change.
    How, the budget differences will still be huge.

  48. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss13 View Post
    BOP is an interesting concept, not for it myself. Look like FIA were pushing the reverse grid idea, albeit Mercedes blocked that from happening this year. I can certainly see a shift to reverse grid at some point, something like what is happening in F2 perhaps...not sure I agree with it myself. All non-Mercedes teams just need to up their game! This may happen naturally after the rule change.
    I quite like the idea of a reverse grid, however it would only really work if the GP were split into 2 and both races took place on the same day. A morning 50 lap race using the grid positions achieved in qualifying and the second “sprint” race a bit later on the same day. However it would only add interest on tracks where overtaking was possible, so Monaco would have to go. Plus I think that to make it fair, additional points would have to be given for the initial qualification to preventing sandbagging.

    An alternative would be to awards additional points for places made. So if a driver starts 20 on the grid and finishes 10th, they gets x points. If however a driver starts in pole and finishes first then gets no additional points.

    All a bit complex hence the current system of first past the post is the best.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    How, the budget differences will still be huge.
    Take a look at how the prize money is allocated. It explains a lot.

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  49. #849
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    I don’t like the idea of BOP at all, to artificially handicap the best teams to benefit the less efficient ones is not my idea of the pinnacle of sport at all.

  50. #850
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    Changing the subject slightly, who is carrying the costs of hosting the races now?
    I was under the impression that circuits paid a lot of money to F1 to host a race but with no spectators to claw back that outlay, are the circuits STILL paying to host the races?

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